Ireneaus on End Times

[Biblewriter]

As this thread has gone off the rails, I am bowing out.

 

[miknik5]

Thank you. I started this thread because the discussion of the OP was taking another thread off topic.

As this thread has gone off the rails, I am bowing out.

No it hasn't gone off the rails at all. Iranaeus below mentions the temple and you haven't

Nor did you include it in your sequence of events

We should probably start with the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.
“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

Not off topic
Just overlooked

 

[miknik5]

Iranaeus knew there'd be a temple
which I highlighted above in his work in red

 

[miknik5]

Church Father Ireneaus has been discussed on another thread, and a suggestion was made by brother Postview that we should study what he had to say indepth. I think that is a great idea, as this seems to be a person we can all learn from. So, to scholars all, post your comments here.

Initially you started your thread welcoming comments of all

 

[miknik5]

Seven years tribulation

The first part "restoring" (so the unbelieving Jew thinks) Jerusalem
by the false notion that they must rebuild a temple and with it reinstating abominable animal sacrifices


And with the beginning of the start of rebuilding during troublous times these "violent men of the (old) covenant" mentioned by Daniel will think nothing of stopping those who get in their way

 

[miknik5]

Dup post

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Initially you started your thread welcoming comments of all

Yes to discuss Irenaeus and what he wrote about end times.

 

[miknik5]

Yes to discuss Irenaeus and what he wrote about end times.

He wrote about the temple

 

[Biblewriter]

As long as the discussion is about what Irenaeus said, I am still in.

 

[miknik5]

As long as the discussion is about what Irenaeus said, I am still in.

So

He wrote about the temple

Do you agree that this is also a future event

The rebuilding of the earthly temple in Jerusalem?
In order for, as iranaeus mentions, for the antichrist to sit in the temple

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

As faithful Christians we ARE the seed of Abraham. Galatians 3:26 If you belong to Christ, you are the issue of Abraham and the heirs by virtue of the Promise.
This is the plain truth: Every born again Christian IS an Israelite of God, there is NO ethnic divisions in God's sight. Ephesians 2:11-18
People only persist with the nonsense of a separate 'Israel' and 'Church', in order to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

I gave the reasons. Read what I posted.



This is not what the scriptures teach. You will not find even one ene]=d time prophecy, anywhere in the entire Bible, that days anything about Judah, that is, "the Jews," returning to the land. The only prophecy that says anything at all about that was about the return from Babylon.

The prophecies about the end time return all say "Israel," not "Judah." There two terms are not synonyms. Judah has two possible meanings. It either refers to the tribe of Judah, or it refers to the southern kingdom of Judah and Benjamin. Israel, likewise, had two meanings, it either meant the entire twelve tribes, or it meant the northern kingdom composed of the ten tribes.

But in the entire Bible, Israel never means Judah, and Judah never means Israel.



You are quoting from the KJV, which reads:
" Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25

This is a reference to the times in which the street and the wall were built in ancient times. This took 49 years, seven weeks, the straight of times. then, after an additional sixty -two weeks, Messiah would come. Just as He actually did come, 483 years (7 x 69) after the order went forth.

But I am not the one who said the the return of Israel would take place after the Lord comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." This is clearly taught in Isaiah 66.

Israel and Judah will be one again, Hosea 1 speaks of this day

Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Isaiah 11
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

Jer 3
7 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
19 “But I said:
‘How can I put you among the children
And give you a pleasant land,
A beautiful heritage of the hosts of nations?’
“And I said:
‘You shall call Me, “My Father,”
And not turn away from Me.’


Jer 23
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[fn]
7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

jer 30
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

Jesus is coming to sit on the throne of David, Davids throne is not a heavenly one and this promise is repeated many times in scripture.

Ezekiel 34
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”
31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,” says the Lord GOD.

 

[miknik5]

Israel and Judah will be one again, Hosea 1 speaks of this day

Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Isaiah 11
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

Jer 3
7 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
19 “But I said:
‘How can I put you among the children
And give you a pleasant land,
A beautiful heritage of the hosts of nations?’
“And I said:
‘You shall call Me, “My Father,”
And not turn away from Me.’


Jer 23
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[fn]
7 “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

jer 30
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus speaks the LORD God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

Jesus is coming to sit on the throne of David, Davids throne is not a heavenly one and this promise is repeated many times in scripture.

Ezekiel 34
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”
31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,” says the Lord GOD.

Beautiful scriptures Brian

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Beautiful scriptures Brian

Yes they are. Now back to Ireneaus.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Yes they are. Now back to Ireneaus.

HI the debate has evolved to really a discussion on dispensational vs covenant theology as it usually does. The positions stated by Ireneaus were the launching points for the last few exchanges. I think he is worth studying as are a great many others like Isaac Newton who can ad something. I do not study scripture like case law and stand on something just because Augustine or someone else may have thought it. As we saw in Jeremiahs day the majority of the prophets were predicting one thing and only a few were speaking for the LORD. Since Daniels book was a sealed book and Revelation ties in deeply with it we now have the benefit of history to see things lining up for a time of tribulation. I thing the methods of study and the amount of knowledge available now would give us a better chance to figure out what is happening than taking a ancient historical position even if many of the points and ideas are the same.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

HI the debate has evolved to really a discussion on dispensational vs covenant theology as it usually does. The positions stated by Ireneaus were the launching points for the last few exchanges. I think he is worth studying as are a great many others like Isaac Newton who can ad something. I do not study scripture like case law and stand on something just because Augustine or someone else may have thought it. As we saw in Jeremiahs day the majority of the prophets were predicting one thing and only a few were speaking for the LORD. Since Daniels book was a sealed book and Revelation ties in deeply with it we now have the benefit of history to see things lining up for a time of tribulation. I thing the methods of study and the amount of knowledge available now would give us a better chance to figure out what is happening than taking a ancient historical position even if many of the points and ideas are the same.

Yes, but this thread is for the discussion of the writings of Irenaeus. Another thread can be started for other discussions. Thank you fore your cooperation.

 

[keras]

Israel and Judah will be one again, Hosea 1 speaks of this day

So; you don't have a New Testament in your Bible?
FYI, Jesus came to earth nearly 2000 years ago. He extended salvation to all who would receive it.
Those born again Christian people, of every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the Overcomers, [Israelites] of God, the spiritual, chosen holy ones of God.
The fact that makes this truth interesting, is how after over 100 generations, everybody on earth has some of Abrahams genes. Therefore God's promises to the Patriarchs and to ethnic Judah and Israel, will be fulfilled. But only by those who love the Lord and keep His Commandments. All the rest of humankind are made for destruction. Romans 9:22-27

As for Ireneaus, my advice is not to waste time on him. There is plenty in the Bible that people, myself included, should know about, before it all hits us. Be assured, WE are the generation that will see it all.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, but this thread is for the discussion of the writings of Irenaeus. Another thread can be started for other discussions. Thank you fore your cooperation.

Why?
This thread is iranaeus writings on end times in a forum that discusses end times

How can the discussion be controlled?

People are apt to discuss iranaeus' writings and how they line up with the scriptures

What were you hoping to see in this thread?

I'm not trying to be difficult
but what is the point of discussing iranaeus if we don't discuss how it relates to end time prophecy

Im not sure what we are supposed to do here

What is and what isn't allowed

There are going to be questions and reminders and scriptures which will be pointed out to make sure that comments line up to the truth

Which is more important to ensure

Thst those who post their comments are lining up to the truth of GOD's WORD and are not overlooking anything

 

[miknik5]

We should be allowed to question each other

I don't understand the outburst over the questions I asked

If something doesn't line up, we have the right to point it out

 

[miknik5]

So; you don't have a New Testament in your Bible?
FYI, Jesus came to earth nearly 2000 years ago. He extended salvation to all who would receive it.
Those born again Christian people, of every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the Overcomers, [Israelites] of God, the spiritual, chosen holy ones of God.
The fact that makes this truth interesting, is how after over 100 generations, everybody on earth has some of Abrahams genes. Therefore God's promises to the Patriarchs and to ethnic Judah and Israel, will be fulfilled. But only by those who love the Lord and keep His Commandments. All the rest of humankind are made for destruction. Romans 9:22-27

As for Ireneaus, my advice is not to waste time on him. There is plenty in the Bible that people, myself included, should know about, before it all hits us. Be assured, WE are the generation that will see it all.

I am getting more and more confused by the responses and reactions

I dont understand your response to this poster

Have you read the exchange which prompted Brian's post?

 

[miknik5]

Keras,,

Do you agree that a temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem?

And "restoring" Jerusalem is not about bringing the people back into the land,

It's about unbelieving Jews thinking they need to rebuild and reinstitute sacrifices in order (they believe) for Jerusalem, the holy city, to be (in their eyes) complete

Prophecy clearly states that the antichrist will sit in the temple declaring himself GOD

And so did iranaeus