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Intelligence, Atheism & Relgiosity.

Roidecoeur78

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This could spin-off into a completely different thread based on metaphysical and cognitive sciences, but I'm wondering what was the original intent of this one? To imply that religious people are stupid? That intelligence guarantees one being better somehow? There are plenty of very intelligent psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, and villains.

I've met good and bad, smart and stupid, rich and poor, short and tall, young and old, etc., from both the believing and unbelieving camps; and it is my assertion that no single physical or mental attribute, aside from maybe a bad temperament, can determine whether one's entire personality is either acceptable or unacceptable. Unless one is judging with a more rigid system than the 3rd Reich did.
 
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Zoii

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This could spin-off into a completely different thread based on metaphysical and cognitive sciences, but I'm wondering what was the original intent of this one? That religious people are stupid? That intelligence guarantees one being better somehow? There are plenty of very intelligent psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists and villains.

I am unsure of the Researchers personal intent. I can only cite his hypothesis which he tested - ie a positive correlation that being increasing religious disbelief correlates to increasing IQ.

But there are interesting offshoots of this type of research. There was a large study that looked at Fundamentalists of 132 (from memory) countries showing that those identifying as fundamentalists had a lower IQ than those that were identified as having an openness to knowledge in their religious practice.

I have read several commentaries attempting to explain the results. My own thoughts were that in those with lower IQ, there is a greater need for concreteness because they have less capacity for critical thinking and dealing with matters of uncertainty.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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My own thoughts were that in those with lower IQ, there is a greater need for concreteness because they have less capacity for critical thinking and dealing with matters of uncertainty.
Oh, for some reason I figured this was a self-evident thing, which is why intuition was all I needed for my assurance. That is, I would think no explanation was necessary for such an obvious conclusion to be reached. So there must have been some underlying motivation/agenda for the study to have been done. Was it merely for statistical analysis, discrediting of religion, or to make some social scientists with low self esteem feel somehow intrinsically better or more valuable than other people? Such studies really do not prove much, since they often state an obvious, but almost always have an intention behind them.

What people are able to understand or believe or not is determined by many many variables, such as memory retention, cognition, comprehension, age, socio-cultural bias, the culture and era they were born in, access to education(the quality and breadth of which is highly variable), etc. No amount of providing an education, empirical evidence, reasoning with someone, over any amount of time, can keep them from willfully refusing to believe, or even wanting to know of, something outside of their desire or capacity to comprehend it. I would say it's not really their fault, because for the most part they are concreted in their worldview. And trying to convince them of something they can't or won't come to realize by their own volition and ability is a lot like trying to p iss up a rope. Also, you can lead a horse to water, but good luck trying to make it drink.

Conversely, I've met many "open-minded" college graduates that cannot change a car tire, explain how their toaster works, or say who painted A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte(nor do they care to learn); and yet, because they have invested years and gone deeply into debt to become knowledgeable, they feel some need to express their superiority. But, unfortunately, when someone pays for their own indoctrination, they end up learning a great deal of information about a very narrow slice of life(and all that only theoretical), with very little quantity or diversity of life experience to base any real knowledge on. I would say colleges, by and large, end up telling most students what to think rather than how to think. Consider Srinivasa Ramanujan, who made more complex contributions to deep math than professors at Cambridge, and that simply by studying a single library book on applied mathematics he had been given when he was 16. You cannot put in what God left out, and you cannot take out what God put in. The capacity and volition for developing an ability is either there or it isn't, but it doesn't determine whether a person is good or bad.
 
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Zoii

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Oh, for some reason I figured this was a self-evident thing, which is why intuition was all I needed for my assurance. That is, I would think no explanation was necessary for such an obvious conclusion to be reached
On the contrary - the reasons for the result are being discussed quite rigorously in the literature. While it may be that what is self-evident to you, is merely your opinion and not shared by others commenting in the literature. The opinion I espoused, like yours, is ONLY an opinion. Whats objective is that which has been measured in the research. Therein lies its value. An objective starting point for reasoned discussion.

So there must have been some underlying motivation/agenda for the study to have been done. Was it merely for statistical analysis, discrediting of religion, or to make some social scientists with low self esteem feel
It is not objective to disparage the researchers for merely conducting the research and nor is it objective to espouse their interest/motivation for having completed the research. Why they elected to conduct the research does not alter the validity of the results.
 
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Zoii

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Well this explains it! When I was an atheist I could recite all the state capitals...now that I'm Christian I keep getting Delaware and Maryland mixed up.
The research results focus on the sample population over 52 countries - it is not directed at any single religion or any single person.
 
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jacks

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The research results focus on the sample population over 52 countries - it is not directed at any single religion or any single person.
Rats! There went my excuse, I guess I'm just personally getting dumber...
 
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Roidecoeur78

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It is not objective to disparage the researchers for merely conducting the research and nor is it objective to espouse their interest/motivation for having completed the research. Why they elected to conduct the research does not alter the validity of the results.
Whats objective is that which has been measured in the research. Therein lies its value. An objective starting point for reasoned discussion.
No amount of being objective will stop one from experiencing the world subjectively.
images.jpg
But....
Albert-Einstein-Quotes-35.jpg
 

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Roidecoeur78

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Rats! There went my excuse, I guess I'm just personally getting dumber...
Well, at least you're guarded against sagacity. By the way, it's Dover and Annapolis, respectively.
 
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durangodawood

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Oh boy, I love philosophy. I wondered if anyone would bring up Mr. Hume or epistemology by name. But I can't speak for the "Christian" view, at least not the one of the modern majority, only the view afforded to me. Because I see a great behavioral disparity between what is written in scripture of how a spiritual being will live, and how those that say one thing and do another are not all that spiritual. There are clear indications with which to discern between those two types, and there may be countless of variations between the two; but it takes perspicacity, just like spotting a camouflaged moth on a tree trunk. The moth probably has no idea or intent of deceiving itself or anyone, it's just running an inherited natural program that facilitates its continued survival; it may be the same for many of those that inherit a religion. A person is not saved just because they have inherited a social club, even if it is built around a Holy book that has been reduced to oft-repeated jargon that they do not fully comprehend or ever seek to. Christ Himself said reading the scriptures does not save anyone.

My own understanding regarding intelligence includes this (and it's the same for all those other things mentioned before such as health, wealth, beauty, etc): It doesn't matter whether a person is intelligent or not, what matters is how they use it and to what end. A person with Downs syndrome might be superficially considered with condescending pathos by any measure of natural intelligence, or social ability, but in God's eyes he or she may be the closest thing to being an angel in human form as one can get. I myself have never met a person with Down's syndrome that had a mean bone in their body. Inasmuch as the brain, as a physical organ, is the seat of intelligence, said intelligence, or lack thereof, will likely cease at physical death (that being the separation of soul and body). But I won't get to know until I get there. It all really ties into whether one can discern and distinguish between intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom, and whether any of it can be determined to be imperishable or not. Besides, I'm not sure the self is the most accurate or unbiased of estimators when it comes to intelligence, neither one's own nor that of anyone else- See the Dunning-Kruger effect.

*To go completely off topic, do you think the Original Poster realizes she has misspelled Religiosity? Oh well, to err is human to forgive is divine.
Interesting post.

I always imagined that the Christian idea of the afterlife included the persistence of the self. And the self as we know it includes, among other things, personality, memory, and intellect.

As for misspelling, well I hope @Zoii doesnt get penalized IQ points for it. Otoh, she seems pretty bright and can perhaps lend me a few.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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Interesting post.

I always imagined that the Christian idea of the afterlife included the persistence of the self. And the self as we know it includes, among other things, personality, memory, and intellect.

According to parable, there is consciousness. But whether natural intelligence is an attribute that translates to the spiritual realm is something we'll both get to find out, just be patient! With the glut of biblical quoters around here, I will mix it up a bit and bring in some Plato.

In the tenth book of the Republic you'll encounter the tale of Er, son of Armenios. He was slain in battle, and after ten days his body was retrieved from the battlefield, but unlike the other bodies his was unaffected by decay. So it was carried away home to be buried, but on the 12th day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world.

What follows in the text is a great description of what may or may not await a soul. But don't just google it, I highly recommend reading all of Plato's dialogues.

As for misspelling, well I hope @Zoii doesnt get penalized IQ points for it. Otoh, she seems pretty bright and can perhaps lend me a few.
Yes, let's hope not. She seems to take I.Q. verrrrrry seriously, but, in the meantime, she has to live here on planet meatball with the rest of us Morlocks
 
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Jonaitis

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I regard theology "as the comprehension of all other knowledge," so that without it all other knowledge is fragmentary, partial and incomplete.

When the Enlightenment came along and dethroned theology from its rightful place as the head of all knowledge, then the rest of what we know as knowledge immediately started breaking up into smaller fragments, as it is today. There is bits of knowledge floating free-form and utterly isolated from anything else.

Atheists pursues the lesser knowledge, religious folks (particularly Christians) pursue the head of all knowledge that completes, complements and connects all things together.
 
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bèlla

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The conclusions are a little concerning when seeking a religious pathway.

I am not a religious person. My connection to God is personal and I have zero interest in creeds, rules, and the rest. While I appreciate theology I am equally interested in other subjects and have a thirst for knowledge. I'm a voracious reader and finish over 150 titles per year; mostly nonfiction.

I like intellectual discourse. I support philanthropy but I'm not an activist or inclined to debate its topics. I'd prefer to feed my mind other morsels. I focus on subjects that enhance my person. I'm very intentional about my lifestyle.

Oftentimes I'm in the company of atheists because of my interests and mindset. I don't have random moments where I muse over hell, the end times, or anything along those lines. I'm too busy living in the here and now. And I'm happy.

My belief in the "good news" is exemplified in my person. There must be clear manifestations of joy, peace, love, and the other fruits I profess. I shouldn't have to explain my faith. My life and inner person should demonstrate my beliefs without utterance. That's my standard.
 
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juvenissun

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How disappointing you chose not to focus on the OP and instead opted for a personal attack on me..... I did not publish or participate in the research or the replications of that study. Ive posted it here for discussion.

You've also listed me as a disbeliever, again - thats a personal view of me that you have no idea about. Can you stop lobbing personal insults at me and other posters in any thread. Not only is it against forum rules, but it is an undignified way to have a discussion, and does nothing to promote your own argument.

Also you should note that the research focused on religiosity and studied christian, Islam Hinduism, Buddhism and Jewish religions.

As this study has been replicated several times with similar outcomes, its useful to ask some questions around the outcomes - by all means criticise the study design, or attack the conclusions.
I'd be more interested to understand what is it about religion (regardless of the religion) that is offered to those of lower IQ.

I have no intention in insult anyone (don't look yourself so high, I have no interest to insult you). You are a unbeliever, and you post a research which concluded that unbelievers are more intelligent. Is that not right? I am a believer, and the research you quote suggested that believers are less intelligent. Is it not?

What I said is what you do not understand, and you should focus on that: From Christian point of view, a low-intelligence believer is much better off than a high-intelligence non-believer. So, the research result is irrelevant to its purpose. In other words, this research worths nothing.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Perceived intelligence makes a person conceited (just like beauty, wealth, status, and everything else that will go no further than the grave) religious scriptures from various "faiths" do not say anything about those that are wise in their own eyes being humble enough to be saved. Those that are wise in their own eyes are often unwilling to recognize and admit their own limitations(where one's knowledge ends, belief must be held), so how will they see or admit where they are in error in relation to the Divine?

That's pretty much how I see it. Intelligent people, in their own mind, are simply too intelligent to believe in a God, but they are also "intelligent" enough to believe in something like the big bang over God, or an, "It just kind of happened on it's own", something that in my mind seems extremely unintelligent, I mean what are the odds? but what do I know?

I just remembered, hi IQr's, at least as I understand it, tend to lack in common sense so that could explain a lot. And that set me to thinking, the term intelligence, since it is definitely related to IQ, is it best to be of average intelligence with good common sense or extremely intelligent with very little?

How about "smart" people are they intelligent or merely those average IQr's with common sense?
Sorry about all the question ...average IQ and all. :sigh:

I think we'd best wait till it all pans out in the end before we decide who was intelligent enough to actually get it right.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You've also listed me as a disbeliever, again - thats a personal view of me that you have no idea about. Can you stop lobbing personal insults at me and other posters in any thread. Not only is it against forum rules, but it is an undignified way to have a discussion, and does nothing to promote your own argument.

His way of thinking may have been, you as a seeker, indicates you haven't "found" as of yet, and that's why his view? Does that sound reasonable to you?

Why not just tell us what you are, and do away with any confusion? I doubt asking or telling that is against the rules.
 
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bèlla

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What I said is what you do not understand, and you should focus on that: From Christian point of view, a low-intelligence believer is much better off than a high-intelligence non-believer. So, the research result is irrelevant to its purpose. In other words, this research worths nothing.

I find both unsettling. My faith is not an excuse for low-intelligence. I should be capable of accomplishing more as the result of His indwelling. I am better off when I've utilized the gifts and talents He's bestowed to their fullest extent. Mediocrity of any stripe is unacceptable.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It doesn't seem as if someone posted the actual article yet. I have attached it.

Reading it, I am not much impressed. They are extrapolating from single variables to try and make further correlation: That wealthier countries have more atheists, countries with higher IQs are wealthier, so Atheists are more likely with higher IQs. They then attempt to correct for wealth as a factor, with limited success.
Correlation is not causation, and of course, humans would rely less on God if better off - this is that old problem of self-worship, distraction, and the selfish nature of man. Compelle Intrare has always been a way many approach God, for we must realise ourselves powerless sometimes, to be able to set the self aside at all, for God. Many other factors may be at play, from political to social to historical, that may account for this. Nordic countries weigh it in favour of Atheism, while the US bucks the trend. This is better explicable from the history of thought in those countries, through the Enlightenment, Existentialism and the middle way Socialism in Scandinavia. The conclusions are presented as statistically valid, but the external validity thereof is frankly lacking. I hadn't seen it before, but it really doesn't add to the discussion of Intelligence and Religiosity except in obfuscation.

Fairly pointless, and says very little.
 

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