Seeking God & the problem of divine hiddenness

[TruthSeek3r]

From Nonresistant Nonbelief, by J. L. Schellenberg:

One might fail to believe in God even while God is open to a belief-entailing personal relationship if one prevents oneself from believing in God through self-deceptive resistance of God. So the hiddenness argument needs to show that not all nonbelief is of this sort: that there is (or has in the past been) nonresistant nonbelief. Chapter 6 shows how this may be done. It does so by reference to humans in the early days of human evolution as well as those today who are in doubt over whether such a God exists after careful reflection on the idea. With this job completed, we can add a third premise: Some finite persons are or have been nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists. And from this premise together with the previous conclusion, a second conclusion can be drawn: No perfectly loving God exists.

(source)​

Other authors refer to nonresistant nonbelief as "blameless" disbelief or "inculpable" nonbelief. For example, this article says:

“Divine Hiddenness” in contemporary philosophy of religion may refer to the supposed fact that the existence of God is less than obvious, or to an argument against theism based on this supposed fact. The argument begins with the observation that many people of apparently good will and at least average intelligence have investigated the claims of theism, and yet still do not believe that God exists. Suppose, as many theists do, that the greatest human good is found in a personal relationship with God. Not believing that God exists seems an obvious barrier to such a relationship; but many of those who do not believe in God seem morally and epistemically blameless in their lack of belief. If the God of theism—an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good personal being—did exist, then surely those who genuinely seek God would find God: an omnipotent God would be capable of providing clear self-revelation to those who genuinely seek, and a perfectly good God would want to provide such revelation. That so many of those who do seek or have sought God persist in unbelief is therefore itself evidence that God does not exist. Or so claims the advocate of the “argument from divine hiddenness.” Some philosophers have responded by argued that “the problem of divine hiddenness” is simply a special case of the more general problem of evil, adding nothing new to the case against the existence of God, nor any new challenge to extant responses to the problem of evil. For example, it could be that there is some outweighing good that can only be obtained by God allowing blameless disbelief to continue in a person’s life. Other philosophers have argued that a good God might provide only “purposive evidence”; i.e., evidence that may only be made available to one if it would accomplish God’s purpose in one’s life (e.g., that one would respond to the evidence not just by believing that God exists, but also by loving and obeying God).​

There are contemporary individuals who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers". For example, in a recent debate titled DEBATE: Theism vs Atheism | Jonathan McLatchie vs Alex O’Connor, Alex O'Connor said in his opening statement:

[...] I'm going to be making the claim, specifically, that atheism or naturalism provides better account for 3 facts of our universe:

• The first being the hiddenness of God.
• The second being the geographical, statistical arrangement of religious belief.
• And the third will be the problem of gratuitous suffering and we'll see if we get time to finish it off.

Far from being unable to escape God, there is a very real contingent of nonbelievers, and I would count myself among their number, who are unable by any means to discover Him. Who seek and do not find, who knock and receive, as it were, no answer. This strange phenomenon is known as the problem of divine hiddenness. If there is a God, then simply why is He hidden from so many of us so much of the time? If theism is to offer a sufficient account of reality, then it must offer an account of what J. L. Schellenberg has famously labeled "nonresistant nonbelief", which he distinguishes from "resistant nonbelief" [...]​

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

Luke 11:9
“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Non-resistance is not enough...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well first issue is a faulty understanding of scripture. This mentions evolution, which from scripture God formed man out of the ground and breathed life into him. I know some think that means evolution is plausible, but not so. God made man in one single day. So evolution is out, not to mention Hebrews 11:3 discredits evolution as well.

Second, and probably most importantly, how are they trying to find God? God has already prescribed the manner in which people are to find him. His Son, Jesus Christ. There is no other way. A person can't say, I really want to know God, but He has to meet me on my terms, and call that nonresistance, or worse yet accuse God of not being loving because He won't do so. One way, that way is Jesus.

So if we are going to look for God we need to know where to find Him and we need to know how to find Him, it's like having a roadmap on a trip but instead of following the course as plotted for you by a cartographer, you go about it your own way.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In all honesty I cant attribute knowing God to myself.

However His attributes are seen by all in creation - in that sense He is revealed not hidden.

So the condition of the human heart is a factor in the apparent hiddenness.

While we were yet sinners He died for us.

So the darkness of the human heart is common to man - yet some are saved.

That must mean that faith is a matter of His choosing as it is totally undeserved.

And His ways are past finding out - He encounters the wicked (e.g. Paul)

 

[Tolworth John]

What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

Two answers.
That God exists is perfectly clear from creation. God created time, space, energy, matter and organised it into the universe. No God= no universe. They are deliberately not thinking.
2nd
God is being gracioue to those who will not believe. They can live in a blissful ignorance with their minds un worried by the certainty that there is a God who will judge them, condemn them etc.

 

[Aussie Pete]

From Nonresistant Nonbelief, by J. L. Schellenberg:

One might fail to believe in God even while God is open to a belief-entailing personal relationship if one prevents oneself from believing in God through self-deceptive resistance of God. So the hiddenness argument needs to show that not all nonbelief is of this sort: that there is (or has in the past been) nonresistant nonbelief. Chapter 6 shows how this may be done. It does so by reference to humans in the early days of human evolution as well as those today who are in doubt over whether such a God exists after careful reflection on the idea. With this job completed, we can add a third premise: Some finite persons are or have been nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists. And from this premise together with the previous conclusion, a second conclusion can be drawn: No perfectly loving God exists.

(source)​

Other authors refer to nonresistant nonbelief as "blameless" disbelief or "inculpable" nonbelief. For example, this article says:

“Divine Hiddenness” in contemporary philosophy of religion may refer to the supposed fact that the existence of God is less than obvious, or to an argument against theism based on this supposed fact. The argument begins with the observation that many people of apparently good will and at least average intelligence have investigated the claims of theism, and yet still do not believe that God exists. Suppose, as many theists do, that the greatest human good is found in a personal relationship with God. Not believing that God exists seems an obvious barrier to such a relationship; but many of those who do not believe in God seem morally and epistemically blameless in their lack of belief. If the God of theism—an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good personal being—did exist, then surely those who genuinely seek God would find God: an omnipotent God would be capable of providing clear self-revelation to those who genuinely seek, and a perfectly good God would want to provide such revelation. That so many of those who do seek or have sought God persist in unbelief is therefore itself evidence that God does not exist. Or so claims the advocate of the “argument from divine hiddenness.” Some philosophers have responded by argued that “the problem of divine hiddenness” is simply a special case of the more general problem of evil, adding nothing new to the case against the existence of God, nor any new challenge to extant responses to the problem of evil. For example, it could be that there is some outweighing good that can only be obtained by God allowing blameless disbelief to continue in a person’s life. Other philosophers have argued that a good God might provide only “purposive evidence”; i.e., evidence that may only be made available to one if it would accomplish God’s purpose in one’s life (e.g., that one would respond to the evidence not just by believing that God exists, but also by loving and obeying God).​

There are contemporary individuals who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers". For example, in a recent debate titled DEBATE: Theism vs Atheism | Jonathan McLatchie vs Alex O’Connor, Alex O'Connor said in his opening statement:

[...] I'm going to be making the claim, specifically, that atheism or naturalism provides better account for 3 facts of our universe:

• The first being the hiddenness of God.
• The second being the geographical, statistical arrangement of religious belief.
• And the third will be the problem of gratuitous suffering and we'll see if we get time to finish it off.

Far from being unable to escape God, there is a very real contingent of nonbelievers, and I would count myself among their number, who are unable by any means to discover Him. Who seek and do not find, who knock and receive, as it were, no answer. This strange phenomenon is known as the problem of divine hiddenness. If there is a God, then simply why is He hidden from so many of us so much of the time? If theism is to offer a sufficient account of reality, then it must offer an account of what J. L. Schellenberg has famously labeled "nonresistant nonbelief", which he distinguishes from "resistant nonbelief" [...]​

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13. There are many other references to "seeking and finding". God is not hiding from man. God is Spirit and therefore not visible with natural eyesight. So He reveals Himself through creation. Have you ever met Van Gogh or Reubens? You can find their works hanging on gallery walls. People don't look at those paintings and wonder how they got there. An explosion in a paint factory, perhaps? Some abstracts look like they could have eventuated that way. God also revealed Himself in the person of Christ. He came to earth and lived with us. He did amazing miracles, was crucified, died, was buried and rose again. It's history. It actually happened about 2,000 years ago.

People who do not believe do so by choice. There are two kinds of agnostics: ordinary and ornery. The ordinary say, "I don't know." The ornery say, "I don't know, neither do you so get off my back!" God has provided all the evidence that we need. It's up to the individual what to do with it.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

From Nonresistant Nonbelief, by J. L. Schellenberg:

One might fail to believe in God even while God is open to a belief-entailing personal relationship if one prevents oneself from believing in God through self-deceptive resistance of God. So the hiddenness argument needs to show that not all nonbelief is of this sort: that there is (or has in the past been) nonresistant nonbelief. Chapter 6 shows how this may be done. It does so by reference to humans in the early days of human evolution as well as those today who are in doubt over whether such a God exists after careful reflection on the idea. With this job completed, we can add a third premise: Some finite persons are or have been nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists. And from this premise together with the previous conclusion, a second conclusion can be drawn: No perfectly loving God exists.

(source)​

Other authors refer to nonresistant nonbelief as "blameless" disbelief or "inculpable" nonbelief. For example, this article says:

“Divine Hiddenness” in contemporary philosophy of religion may refer to the supposed fact that the existence of God is less than obvious, or to an argument against theism based on this supposed fact. The argument begins with the observation that many people of apparently good will and at least average intelligence have investigated the claims of theism, and yet still do not believe that God exists. Suppose, as many theists do, that the greatest human good is found in a personal relationship with God. Not believing that God exists seems an obvious barrier to such a relationship; but many of those who do not believe in God seem morally and epistemically blameless in their lack of belief. If the God of theism—an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good personal being—did exist, then surely those who genuinely seek God would find God: an omnipotent God would be capable of providing clear self-revelation to those who genuinely seek, and a perfectly good God would want to provide such revelation. That so many of those who do seek or have sought God persist in unbelief is therefore itself evidence that God does not exist. Or so claims the advocate of the “argument from divine hiddenness.” Some philosophers have responded by argued that “the problem of divine hiddenness” is simply a special case of the more general problem of evil, adding nothing new to the case against the existence of God, nor any new challenge to extant responses to the problem of evil. For example, it could be that there is some outweighing good that can only be obtained by God allowing blameless disbelief to continue in a person’s life. Other philosophers have argued that a good God might provide only “purposive evidence”; i.e., evidence that may only be made available to one if it would accomplish God’s purpose in one’s life (e.g., that one would respond to the evidence not just by believing that God exists, but also by loving and obeying God).​

There are contemporary individuals who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers". For example, in a recent debate titled DEBATE: Theism vs Atheism | Jonathan McLatchie vs Alex O’Connor, Alex O'Connor said in his opening statement:

[...] I'm going to be making the claim, specifically, that atheism or naturalism provides better account for 3 facts of our universe:

• The first being the hiddenness of God.
• The second being the geographical, statistical arrangement of religious belief.
• And the third will be the problem of gratuitous suffering and we'll see if we get time to finish it off.

Far from being unable to escape God, there is a very real contingent of nonbelievers, and I would count myself among their number, who are unable by any means to discover Him. Who seek and do not find, who knock and receive, as it were, no answer. This strange phenomenon is known as the problem of divine hiddenness. If there is a God, then simply why is He hidden from so many of us so much of the time? If theism is to offer a sufficient account of reality, then it must offer an account of what J. L. Schellenberg has famously labeled "nonresistant nonbelief", which he distinguishes from "resistant nonbelief" [...]​

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

It is a hardened heart that keeps one from a relationship with our Creator.
Blessings

 

[PloverWing]

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

I don't think they're doing anything wrong, except making incorrect guesses.

Why is God so hidden? My current best guess is that God is so big, and so different from us, and we are so fragile, that a full direct encounter with God would overwhelm and destroy us ("no one can look on the face of God and live"), so the best we are able to handle is small glimpses, which are easily overlooked or misinterpreted. But all that is speculation.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

From Nonresistant Nonbelief, by J. L. Schellenberg:

One might fail to believe in God even while God is open to a belief-entailing personal relationship if one prevents oneself from believing in God through self-deceptive resistance of God. So the hiddenness argument needs to show that not all nonbelief is of this sort: that there is (or has in the past been) nonresistant nonbelief. Chapter 6 shows how this may be done. It does so by reference to humans in the early days of human evolution as well as those today who are in doubt over whether such a God exists after careful reflection on the idea. With this job completed, we can add a third premise: Some finite persons are or have been nonresistantly in a state of nonbelief in relation to the proposition that God exists. And from this premise together with the previous conclusion, a second conclusion can be drawn: No perfectly loving God exists.

(source)​

Other authors refer to nonresistant nonbelief as "blameless" disbelief or "inculpable" nonbelief. For example, this article says:

“Divine Hiddenness” in contemporary philosophy of religion may refer to the supposed fact that the existence of God is less than obvious, or to an argument against theism based on this supposed fact. The argument begins with the observation that many people of apparently good will and at least average intelligence have investigated the claims of theism, and yet still do not believe that God exists. Suppose, as many theists do, that the greatest human good is found in a personal relationship with God. Not believing that God exists seems an obvious barrier to such a relationship; but many of those who do not believe in God seem morally and epistemically blameless in their lack of belief. If the God of theism—an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good personal being—did exist, then surely those who genuinely seek God would find God: an omnipotent God would be capable of providing clear self-revelation to those who genuinely seek, and a perfectly good God would want to provide such revelation. That so many of those who do seek or have sought God persist in unbelief is therefore itself evidence that God does not exist. Or so claims the advocate of the “argument from divine hiddenness.” Some philosophers have responded by argued that “the problem of divine hiddenness” is simply a special case of the more general problem of evil, adding nothing new to the case against the existence of God, nor any new challenge to extant responses to the problem of evil. For example, it could be that there is some outweighing good that can only be obtained by God allowing blameless disbelief to continue in a person’s life. Other philosophers have argued that a good God might provide only “purposive evidence”; i.e., evidence that may only be made available to one if it would accomplish God’s purpose in one’s life (e.g., that one would respond to the evidence not just by believing that God exists, but also by loving and obeying God).​

There are contemporary individuals who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers". For example, in a recent debate titled DEBATE: Theism vs Atheism | Jonathan McLatchie vs Alex O’Connor, Alex O'Connor said in his opening statement:

[...] I'm going to be making the claim, specifically, that atheism or naturalism provides better account for 3 facts of our universe:

• The first being the hiddenness of God.
• The second being the geographical, statistical arrangement of religious belief.
• And the third will be the problem of gratuitous suffering and we'll see if we get time to finish it off.

Far from being unable to escape God, there is a very real contingent of nonbelievers, and I would count myself among their number, who are unable by any means to discover Him. Who seek and do not find, who knock and receive, as it were, no answer. This strange phenomenon is known as the problem of divine hiddenness. If there is a God, then simply why is He hidden from so many of us so much of the time? If theism is to offer a sufficient account of reality, then it must offer an account of what J. L. Schellenberg has famously labeled "nonresistant nonbelief", which he distinguishes from "resistant nonbelief" [...]​

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

Who does God manifest Himself to?

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

God does two things for man, gives his commandments, even if only written on our hearts.

Rom 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)​

God will bring salvation not to the person who seeks after a god of their own making. But the one who comes to him via His commands, or nature, via the cross and repentance. By this, I don't mean we work our way to God, no. But rather we are responsive to His word, or conscience.

As an example, a person may desire to live in sin, but still makes the claim of seeking to know God, yet they will never obtain it. For they desire more "what is against God's nature", so they will never see God.

A person may have sinned, lived in sin, but when they see the cross, or their conscience tugs on them, they respond in repentance, and God will grant them faith. They will then see God.

For the Christian, we can not get sloppy and let sin in the door, or we too may be blinded. For it is the one who is obedient who succeeds.

1Co 10:1-13 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
​

EDIT
===

I am going to do an edit to this because I feel I made it sound like God sometimes is unresponsive. I believe God reaches out to everybody at some point in their life. Giving them light. Some people choose to ignore God however, and it would not matter what He showed them, they would not respond. So when they are asked the question has God done something for them the answer would always be no.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

 

[aiki]

Question: From a Christian perspective, what are Alex and others who identify themselves as "nonresistant nonbelievers" doing wrong that is preventing them from finding God and attaining genuine belief in Him? What are plausible reasons for why God may appear hidden to them despite their alleged nonresistance?

From a biblical perspective, what they are doing is "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18-19) It's no more complicated, I believe, than this, really. In the existence of their conscience, the "law of God written on their hearts," the testimony of Creation to God's existence, and the special revelation of God to Man in the Person of Jesus Christ, there is sufficient reason for belief in God. But the apostle John put an even finer point on the matter:

John 3:19-20
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Part of the problem, too, is that people want an experience of God, a spiritual Being, that parallels their sensory experience of the material environment in which they constantly move. They think that only what is evident to their physical senses is "real." This view is encouraged, of course, at every turn in secular culture through the philosophies of naturalism, materialism and scientism.