I'm so confused - what should I do??

[Sunrise78]

I need to talk to someone about what is going on in my life ...

I grew up in a moderately fundamentalist/non-denominational/ dispensationalist/generally Arminian church. It is the church I still attend, actually.

Very recently (i.e. about 3-4 months ago) I was introduced to confessional Reformed teaching and I find myself drifting in that direction. Okay, that's probably not the way to put it - I feel more like God has completely changed around my way of thinking because I used to be dead set against anything remotely Calvinistic. I used to be a die hard dispensationalist and now I am seriously questioning that system in favor of Covenant theology.

I find myself really struggling in church these days because 1) the confessional Reformed law/gospel distinction does not seem to be either believed or preached in our church, 2) the worship (though sincere) is largely man-centered rather than God-centered, 3) communion is served only once a month and great liberties are taken with the form the elements take from month to month, 4) dispensationalism colors everything, 5) I am having issues with the use of technology in the worship service ... among other things.

In addition to this, our church is very small and the vast majority of the members are 50+. I feel like I need to have fellowship with other believers my own age and stage of life (I am single). I am 29 and I don't think God has called me to be single for the rest of my life, and online dating seems so forced and artificial. I am afraid that if I just continue to wait for God to drop someone at my doorstep I will be waiting until it is too late.

So I am contemplating leaving my church and finding another church ... but on the other hand, many of the people in my current church are wonderful people and have helped me greatly in my spiritual growth over the years. I can't imagine hurting them by leaving ... but on the other
hand God seems to be calling me toward something different, and I can't expect the whole church to change its beliefs because of something I say.

What should I do?? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[nobdysfool]

If God is calling you to move on and find a church that teaches what you are coming to believe, I'd ask Him to lead you to such a church, and step out in faith. You may visit several churches before you find the one that "fits". This is an opportunity for growth, and those in the church you've been going to should understand that. If they don't, don't let them hold you back. It may be that your leaving presents them with a growth opportunity, as well, and that can't take place until you leave.

As for finding a life partner, God can work in many different ways. Personally, I had great success with E Harmony. I met my wife on E Harmony in 2005, and we're coming up on our 3rd anniversary at the end of September. They don't strongly advertise it, but they have a Christian basis, and seem to be a cut above most online services. I was single for 14 years after my divorce, and had given up on finding anyone. It took about a year working with them before I started getting matches close to me, so you will have to be patient with them, but to me, that is why they are so good. It's worth a shot!

My prayers offered as you work through these issues! God will lead you to a good place, and in his time, will bring you the right person. Be encouraged, and know that God has good plans for you, and will lead you to what's best, and what glorifies Him.

God Bless!

NBF

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

I need to talk to someone about what is going on in my life ...

I grew up in a moderately fundamentalist/non-denominational/ dispensationalist/generally Arminian church. It is the church I still attend, actually.

Very recently (i.e. about 3-4 months ago) I was introduced to confessional Reformed teaching and I find myself drifting in that direction. Okay, that's probably not the way to put it - I feel more like God has completely changed around my way of thinking because I used to be dead set against anything remotely Calvinistic. I used to be a die hard dispensationalist and now I am seriously questioning that system in favor of Covenant theology.

I find myself really struggling in church these days because 1) the confessional Reformed law/gospel distinction does not seem to be either believed or preached in our church, 2) the worship (though sincere) is largely man-centered rather than God-centered, 3) communion is served only once a month and great liberties are taken with the form the elements take from month to month, 4) dispensationalism colors everything, 5) I am having issues with the use of technology in the worship service ... among other things.

In addition to this, our church is very small and the vast majority of the members are 50+. I feel like I need to have fellowship with other believers my own age and stage of life (I am single). I am 29 and I don't think God has called me to be single for the rest of my life, and online dating seems so forced and artificial. I am afraid that if I just continue to wait for God to drop someone at my doorstep I will be waiting until it is too late.

So I am contemplating leaving my church and finding another church ... but on the other hand, many of the people in my current church are wonderful people and have helped me greatly in my spiritual growth over the years. I can't imagine hurting them by leaving ... but on the other
hand God seems to be calling me toward something different, and I can't expect the whole church to change its beliefs because of something I say.

What should I do?? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Please forgive the intrusion, but i am seeing two distinctives here. First: you are concerned that your present congregation is not preaching/practicing what you would consider to be correct doctrine.

Second: You are concerned about fellowship with believers your own age.

Ask yourself this question: If you was a member of a solid Reformed church, would you still be concerned about the demographics of the congregation?

Then ask yourself yet another question: If the demographics of your present congregation were closer to your own age group, would the urge to follow what you believe to be correct doctrine be as troubling?

Bear in mind, i am certainly not accusing you of anything, but it helps to set your priorities straight before making a decision. Which priority is strongest? That might help you to make a decision that is not conflicted.

 

[Sunrise78]

Please forgive the intrusion, but i am seeing two distinctives here. First: you are concerned that your present congregation is not preaching/practicing what you would consider to be correct doctrine.

Second: You are concerned about fellowship with believers your own age.

Ask yourself this question: If you was a member of a solid Reformed church, would you still be concerned about the demographics of the congregation?

Then ask yourself yet another question: If the demographics of your present congregation were closer to your own age group, would the urge to follow what you believe to be correct doctrine be as troubling?

Bear in mind, i am certainly not accusing you of anything, but it helps to set your priorities straight before making a decision. Which priority is strongest? That might help you to make a decision that is not conflicted.

Hi Calvinist Dark Lord,

I don't think it would really matter if there were more people at my church that were my own age. If I told people in my congregation that I was looking for someone to share my life with and they led me to some good fundamentalist/non-denominational/ dispensationalist/ Arminian single men, I would not be happy with that because I wouldn't share many of their beliefs.

If I were a member of a solid Reformed congregation and the demographics were the same as at my present church, I think I would still have that desire to have fellowship with people my own age and be seeking someone to share my life with. But I think it would be easier to talk to people at that congregation about my concerns in that area.

So to answer your question, I think the doctrinal priority is more important, though I don't consider the fellowship priority unimportant.

 

[xapis]

I was in a very similar situation to yours a few short years ago. I had to leave a church (with similar theology to yours) that both sets of my grandparents helped establish. I was raised in that church and I attended and served there for 25+ years so I was very much attached to it and to the people there. It was hard, in some ways, to leave but it was something my wife and I realized we had to do. We came to the point that we could no longer endure the grave errors in doctrine and in practice going on all around us there.

I would recommend looking for a solid (conservative) Reformed church in your area. Before you attend, contact the pastor and talk to him about your situation. Perhaps there's a mid-week Bible study that you could attend to help acquaint you with the pastor and some of the people there. That would be a good first step.

I've been very brief but I hope this helps. Send me a PM if you have any specific questions. I'd be glad to help in any way I can.

 

[Bob Jones Student]

Try to find a reformed Baptist Church. That'll probably be the direction that would be best. Nevertheless, even though I'm fairly new to calvinism myself, and have posed many questions on the board to these fine folks, be careful of jumping headlong into full out covenant-theology. I don't necessarily hold to both. As John Piper has said (paraphrased), both systems have their perks, but... they aren't necessarily biblical.

Now please, no one think of me as a heretic, but I believe that the Bible is more toward a covenant/dispensational type of architecture, but modified from what most adherents think of them. I believe that what covenant theology teaches in that the Father and Jesus agreed before the foundation of the earth to save those whom the Father gave to Christ. Now the next point, I have some contention in my heart, as to whether God ordained the fall to happen, or if.. and this is a big if... if Adam was given the only true free-will choice in the Bible, and based on that, God enacted the covenant of grace. So, that Adam was given the choice, and had Adam obeyed God, then the Human race would not have fallen, and obviously with his disobedience, the covenant of grace was enacted, thus God's foreordaination was based on Adam's choice. Also, that God in His will, gave Adam the choice. (Now for those reading to this point, please don't think of me as any kind of Arminian, I believe that God did really give Adam the choice, and based on God's preknowledge of that he had elected those whom He would save, and thus Adam disobeyed, and everything was enacted).

Now the Covenant of Grace is the over-all arching theme of the rest of the Bible, that God call's to salvation all those whom he had chosen during the period, but (and this is where a modified dispensationalism kicks in) God dealt with man in different ways, during the different eras.

Also, where I disagree with covenant is Israel and the Church. Covenant theology states that the Church superseded Israel, and that God has no future for Israel. The Bible is in great disagreement with this, and could be shown that God has a future for Israel, even if most of them are Atheists right now. So with the over-all arching theme of the Covenant of Grace, God calls to salvation those whom he will save, whether it was those in the time of Israel, or those in the Church age.

Another point of error is infant-baptism. The majority of covenantors baptize their infants, as a superseded circumcision thing, but biblically, this is not seen. Believers alone are to be baptized after salvation. Even if you do infant baptism, there is no-guarantee that the person will come to salvation. They must still believe to be saved.

Another point of contention is the Rapture and Millenium. Covenant Churches generally don't believe in a pre-wrath rapture. But biblically this isn't the case. There will be a tribulation, and the rapture will be before that. The millenium will come after the tribulation, and the eternal state after the millenium. Revelation is certain on that.

Also with evangelism, and calvinism... one must still evangelize the lost, and the christian must plead with them to be saved. God uses our evangelism as a means to the end for the salvation of the elect, nevertheless we cannot sit and think that God will save someone without any kind of Gospel witness. A person must still know and understand the Gospel to be saved. Also... a person must call upon the Lord to be saved, they must believe by faith. How does one call upon the Lord? They come before Him in prayer, and ask Him to save them... only after understanding the Gospel, and after God has worked on their hearts.

So there you have it, that's my covenant/dispensational theology conglomeration. So with that, and five-point calvinism, these are the things that I believe the Bible to affirm. At the very-least calvinism, and at the most, the calvinism, and the modified covenant/dispensational theology conglomeration.

Whew... I hope everyone understands where I'm coming from.

 

[xapis]

...or you could just be consistent with your theology and go to an OPC church: http://www.opc.org/locator.html

 

[bradfordl]

Try to find a reformed Baptist Church. That'll probably be the direction that would be best. Nevertheless, even though I'm fairly new to calvinism myself, and have posed many questions on the board to these fine folks, be careful of jumping headlong into full out covenant-theology. I don't necessarily hold to both. As John Piper has said (paraphrased), both systems have their perks, but... they aren't necessarily biblical.

Now please, no one think of me as a heretic, but I believe that the Bible is more toward a covenant/dispensational type of architecture, but modified from what most adherents think of them. I believe that what covenant theology teaches in that the Father and Jesus agreed before the foundation of the earth to save those whom the Father gave to Christ. Now the next point, I have some contention in my heart, as to whether God ordained the fall to happen, or if.. and this is a big if... if Adam was given the only true free-will choice in the Bible, and based on that, God enacted the covenant of grace. So, that Adam was given the choice, and had Adam obeyed God, then the Human race would not have fallen, and obviously with his disobedience, the covenant of grace was enacted, thus God's foreordaination was based on Adam's choice. Also, that God in His will, gave Adam the choice. (Now for those reading to this point, please don't think of me as any kind of Arminian, I believe that God did really give Adam the choice, and based on God's preknowledge of that he had elected those whom He would save, and thus Adam disobeyed, and everything was enacted).

Now the Covenant of Grace is the over-all arching theme of the rest of the Bible, that God call's to salvation all those whom he had chosen during the period, but (and this is where a modified dispensationalism kicks in) God dealt with man in different ways, during the different eras.

Also, where I disagree with covenant is Israel and the Church. Covenant theology states that the Church superseded Israel, and that God has no future for Israel. The Bible is in great disagreement with this, and could be shown that God has a future for Israel, even if most of them are Atheists right now. So with the over-all arching theme of the Covenant of Grace, God calls to salvation those whom he will save, whether it was those in the time of Israel, or those in the Church age.

Another point of error is infant-baptism. The majority of covenantors baptize their infants, as a superseded circumcision thing, but biblically, this is not seen. Believers alone are to be baptized after salvation. Even if you do infant baptism, there is no-guarantee that the person will come to salvation. They must still believe to be saved.

Another point of contention is the Rapture and Millenium. Covenant Churches generally don't believe in a pre-wrath rapture. But biblically this isn't the case. There will be a tribulation, and the rapture will be before that. The millenium will come after the tribulation, and the eternal state after the millenium. Revelation is certain on that.

Also with evangelism, and calvinism... one must still evangelize the lost, and the christian must plead with them to be saved. God uses our evangelism as a means to the end for the salvation of the elect, nevertheless we cannot sit and think that God will save someone without any kind of Gospel witness. A person must still know and understand the Gospel to be saved. Also... a person must call upon the Lord to be saved, they must believe by faith. How does one call upon the Lord? They come before Him in prayer, and ask Him to save them... only after understanding the Gospel, and after God has worked on their hearts.

So there you have it, that's my covenant/dispensational theology conglomeration. So with that, and five-point calvinism, these are the things that I believe the Bible to affirm. At the very-least calvinism, and at the most, the calvinism, and the modified covenant/dispensational theology conglomeration.

Whew... I hope everyone understands where I'm coming from.

Aah.... the certitude of youth and incomplete study. It may be comforting today, but it will change in the future, as it has from the past. But I didn't read in the OP a request for a theological dissertation from one in transition himself. What was that scripture?... Umm.... oh yeah...

Jas 3:1-2 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. (2) For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

 

[Tsadde]

Seek the Lord Jesus Christ.

Seek the Lord.

Seek the Lord.

I was in your situation about 15 years ago and after 2 years of no church involvement moved to an evangelical Reformed congregation where I learned what grace felt like in practice. I am much happier, more trusting in God, feel loved, have a stronger faith that the Sovereign God is loving and good, and I think I am more effective in ministry.

I would urge caution, however; there is always a danger, when pulling away from an established way of thinking, of heading for the other ditch.

In my experience the church I grew up in placed a great deal of emphasis on the will, frequently using words like do, don't do, decide, determine, strive, serve -and disdained emotion. It was as if they failed to recognize that the will is as fallen as the mind, flesh and emotions.

However I have been increasingly aware that my beloved Calvinist friends place a great deal of emphasis on the intellect as if it is less tainted than the rest of our fallen nature -and they also disdain genuine emotion.

Some of them become so brain-bogged that they lose sight of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in redeeming the whole person and become limited by their I.Q.'s (although substantial compared to most, but pitiful compared to the Holy Spirit) and thus entangled in their own logical proofs.

I am also dismayed at what I perceive in some circles as an apparent lack of deep compassion for the lost, a somewhat selfish complacency in their "choseness" and the lack of faith in the supernatural intervention of God in our lives today. The major seminaries for my current denomination seem to have merely substituted the way of the Sadducee for the way of the Pharisee.

The Calvinist/Arminian tension exists for a reason. I lean toward the Calvinist end of the spectrum but either construct taken to extremes risks flipping your cart in the ditch.

Seek to understand how Christianity works, yes, of course, but seek the Lord Himself above all.

I pray that he gives you the desires of your heart -and most of all that His desires become your desires.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Hi Calvinist Dark Lord,

I don't think it would really matter if there were more people at my church that were my own age. If I told people in my congregation that I was looking for someone to share my life with and they led me to some good fundamentalist/non-denominational/ dispensationalist/ Arminian single men, I would not be happy with that because I wouldn't share many of their beliefs.

If I were a member of a solid Reformed congregation and the demographics were the same as at my present church, I think I would still have that desire to have fellowship with people my own age and be seeking someone to share my life with. But I think it would be easier to talk to people at that congregation about my concerns in that area.

So to answer your question, I think the doctrinal priority is more important, though I don't consider the fellowship priority unimportant.

In a perfect world, you'd be able to adequately address both of your concerns. Unfortunately, we live in a cursed world of fallen men.

Since you have stated that doctrinal purity is the more important of the two and that your present congregation does not meet those expectations, it seems evident that you have your answer.

Yes, it is a difficult thing to do, but many necessary things are difficult.

 

[tim237]

No harm in going and visiting some churches in your area. There's no shame after you've looked at other churches returning to this one. But you might as well make an infromed opinion. Visit the churches, weigh up their various strengths and weakenesses and see what you think.

Whilst your there consider not only doctrinal purity but also whether this a place where the believers love you and will exhort you and whether it is focused on bringing people to God. Reformed churches should be the best at this, but it isn't always the case. If you're interested I have a booklet I gave out to students about choosing a church.

Also don't go too far afield. If you're travelling two hours to get to church you run the risk of being a spectator. Can you contribute to the ministry of the new church to believers and unbelievers in the distance it is from your house?

Consider all these things. On the topic of romance, commit it to the Lord. Consider reading Passion and Purity by Elisabeth Elliot and on the Desiring God website there's a sermon by a lady about singleness. I'm sure it will be helpful to you.

(Sorry I can't put links up. Insert the www before and DOT = . and SLASH = /) The site is: desiringgod DOT org SLASH ResourceLibrary SLASH AuthorIndex SLASH 21 SLASH)

 

[Sunrise78]

Hi NBF,

If God is calling you to move on and find a church that teaches what you are coming to believe, I'd ask Him to lead you to such a church, and step out in faith. You may visit several churches before you find the one that "fits". This is an opportunity for growth, and those in the church you've been going to should understand that. If they don't, don't let them hold you back. It may be that your leaving presents them with a growth opportunity, as well, and that can't take place until you leave.

This may be true.

I would appreciate your prayers in the area of "stepping out in faith," as this is not always easy ... (understatement of the year!)

As for finding a life partner, God can work in many different ways. Personally, I had great success with E Harmony. I met my wife on E Harmony in 2005, and we're coming up on our 3rd anniversary at the end of September. They don't strongly advertise it, but they have a Christian basis, and seem to be a cut above most online services. I was single for 14 years after my divorce, and had given up on finding anyone. It took about a year working with them before I started getting matches close to me, so you will have to be patient with them, but to me, that is why they are so good. It's worth a shot!

I've been on E Harmony and did not find it to be helpful, personally. I think I need to meet people in person. For me it is too much work to go through to finally get to talk to someone in "open communication" (which I never actually achieved, BTW) and then find out that they are not the person for you when you finally do meet them in person (which has actually happened to me, in a different online setting than E Harmony). For me it is too artificial. It never seemed like the people I interacted with took it seriously enough to get back to me after weeks/months, and some people took it so seriously that if a day or two went by with them waiting for you to get back to them they would close the match. I'm happy for you that you found your wife on E Harmony, but I think I need to meet people in a more "normal" way.

My prayers offered as you work through these issues! God will lead you to a good place, and in his time, will bring you the right person. Be encouraged, and know that God has good plans for you, and will lead you to what's best, and what glorifies Him.

God Bless!

NBF

Thank you, NBF! I really appreciate your prayers.

Sunrise

 

[Sunrise78]

...or you could just be consistent with your theology and go to an OPC church: http://www.opc.org/locator.html

Hi Xapis,

There is actually an OPC church about ten minutes away from my house that I am seriously considering looking into.

Sunrise

 

[bradfordl]

Hi Xapis,

There is actually an OPC church about ten minutes away from my house that I am seriously considering looking into.

Sunrise

Boy, I wish an OPC Church were that close to me. I'd be running over there. Hope it works out for you, sister.

 

[Sunrise78]

No harm in going and visiting some churches in your area. There's no shame after you've looked at other churches returning to this one. But you might as well make an infromed opinion. Visit the churches, weigh up their various strengths and weakenesses and see what you think.

Whilst your there consider not only doctrinal purity but also whether this a place where the believers love you and will exhort you and whether it is focused on bringing people to God. Reformed churches should be the best at this, but it isn't always the case. If you're interested I have a booklet I gave out to students about choosing a church.

Also don't go too far afield. If you're travelling two hours to get to church you run the risk of being a spectator. Can you contribute to the ministry of the new church to believers and unbelievers in the distance it is from your house?

Consider all these things. On the topic of romance, commit it to the Lord. Consider reading Passion and Purity by Elisabeth Elliot and on the Desiring God website there's a sermon by a lady about singleness. I'm sure it will be helpful to you.

(Sorry I can't put links up. Insert the www before and DOT = . and SLASH = /) The site is: desiringgod DOT org SLASH ResourceLibrary SLASH AuthorIndex SLASH 21 SLASH)

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the link. I will check it out.

Sunrise

 

[larryjf]

I'm of the mindset that there are few reasons to leave a local church. But, not properly preaching the Word of God is certainly one of those few reasons.

Church is not somewhere to meet friends, it's somewhere to worship our holy God in communion with other saints.

My recommendation would be to leave the church if there is a Reformed church that you can go to in its place.