I walked out of church today

[FireDragon76]

I walked out of our Lutheran (ELCA) church this evening, at the evening service (we have been visiting the local UCC church in the mornings). The service began with the pastor introducing the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol. My blood ran cold, and I just couldn't participate in the service after that, and I left.

As some might know here, I've had issues with how this church handles "security" before. But I think this crosses a line, for many reasons. For one thing, I took an ethics class in college, and one of the lesson plans involved listening to C. Everett Koop discussing ethics with a group of people, and Dr. Koop said he wouldn't have a problem ethically with giving money to somebody who might be an alcoholic, because he understood that alcohol withdrawl can be dangerous . I also think it's incredibly judgemental to assume that a homeless person is an alcoholic and/or wouldn't know how to use the money wisley, like its a subtle denial of the dignity of homeless people in general. It's just wrong on many levels. Jesus said to give to the person who asks, after all.


So, disappointed, I left at the beginning of the service with my S.O. I am not sure what to do now, and I am looking for advice.


I give money to homeless people all the time, everybody in my family does. A year ago I gave money to somebody nonchalantly who was begging at a fast food restaurant. I didn't even consider myself a Christian really anymore, but I just did it out of compassion, without any thought. I wonder how people can be so afraid to help other people and cut them a break? Why are homeless people so scary to some people? I just believe in giving because I want to be the change in the world I want to see. I don't want to be a fearful person who says "no" to somebody else that "makes me uncomfortable". However much discomfort I feel, I'm betting the other person is feeling alot more in asking for money.

 

[Paidiske]

In general I have a lot of sympathy with your thoughts and feelings here. I do think there's a place for a church that's attracting a lot of people looking for handouts to ask, how best can we support these people? And the answer might not be handing out cash; it might be about setting up a resource pool, or a referral process, or some other such thing. There can be problems when untrained volunteers encounter large numbers of people with complex and difficult needs.

But just telling people not to give money, without looking at a more constructive response, would leave me very cold too!

 

[FireDragon76]

In general I have a lot of sympathy with your thoughts and feelings here. I do think there's a place for a church that's attracting a lot of people looking for handouts to ask, how best can we support these people? And the answer might not be handing out cash; it might be about setting up a resource pool, or a referral process, or some other such thing. There can be problems when untrained volunteers encounter large numbers of people with complex and difficult needs.

But just telling people not to give money, without looking at a more constructive response, would leave me very cold too!

They do try to give them some resources, but the "no money" thing seems too stigmatizing and judgemental. And the amount of fear and alarm in the presentation set off my spiritual discernment alarm bells.

Orlando has many homeless people everywhere, so it's not like the church's experience, whatever it is, is all that unique. You run into one every once in a while, it's just a normal part of living here.

Even the Episcopalian cathedral downtown, as hopelessly fundagelical and stodgy as it is, lets homeless people in during the coldest days of the year, and in fact has an large outreach ministry to the homeless. As far as I know, they have no "security team".

 

[Paidiske]

You'll probably find that the vergers handle security in a cathedral. It was one of the functions I had responsibility for, as a cathedral verger.

The point being, I think, it might be valid to say, "handing out cash isn't the best response." But then that has to be followed up with putting in place a better response, not with doing nothing!

 

[FireDragon76]

You'll probably find that the vergers handle security in a cathedral. It was one of the functions I had responsibility for, as a cathedral verger.

The point being, I think, it might be valid to say, "handing out cash isn't the best response." But then that has to be followed up with putting in place a better response, not with doing nothing!

Yeah, they do have a response to provide some aid in the form of directions to homeless shelters and a few bits of food, but I think it's still paternalistic, ignorant, and dehumanizing. There's no good reason to fear that you are needlessly enabling a homeless person by giving them cash, on the off chance they might buy alcohol, since actual alcoholism is such a complicated medical condition, and not primarily a moral failing (an actual alcoholic drinks to feel normal and to avoid the DT's, which can be fatal).

Plus the whole moralistic sentiment in the first place is so lacking in grace and downright judgemental. Just give because it's the gracious thing to do, not because the person is "worthy" (a word that was actually used by the "security team").

 

[Gregory Thompson]

"when you give alms" Matthew 6:3

"Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the LORD" Proverbs 19:17

Giving to the church doesn't equate giving to God. The scriptures indicate in a number of places that giving directly to the poor is like doing the same for God.

I have seen that pattern in the past. It is like the church in these instances is trying to take what is meant for God to the point where no one follows the original teaching.

In a sense it's all about the following.

 

[Chris35]

Something to ponder on. Christians are to be the light in the world. It sounds like the priest is worried about homeless people taking advantage of the church, instead of trusting God / or praying to God that only those who are in need come.

It seems that you have the light because you understand that this is wrong behavior.

If everyone who has the light leaves a church because of something that is incorrect, what is left in the church but more and more darkness.

Paul instead gave thanks and prayed for the churches that were lacking. I urge you to do the same.

 

[FireDragon76]

"when you give alms" Matthew 6:3

"Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the LORD" Proverbs 19:17

Giving to the church doesn't equate giving to God. The scriptures indicate in a number of places that giving directly to the poor is like doing the same for God.

I have seen that pattern in the past. It is like the church in these instances is trying to take what is meant for God to the point where no one follows the original teaching.

In a sense it's all about the following.

In fairness, the church isn't really taking in all that much money. We are talking about Lutherans here, not Pentecostals. The people at church are too cheap to even get a regular organist now days, and my former pastor used to have to do soft-pedaled beg-a-thons occasionally just to do simple things like have enough money to pay for septic repairs. We're talking about shoestring budgets for the church.

I think it's more likely due to the fact that there's a fair amount of ex-military and police in the congregation who may be misguided. And it's fairly common in Orlando for a certain social or political class to see homeless people as problems or threats that should just be made to go away.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In fairness, the church isn't really taking in all that much money. We are talking about Lutherans here, not Pentecostals.

I think it's more likely due to the fact that there's a fair amount of ex-military and police in the congregation, and they may be bringing in some very worldly attitudes. And it's fairly common in Orlando for a certain social or political class to see homeless people as problems or threats that should just be made to go away.

It may be "fairly common" but Romans 12:2 and onward. Preaching to the prejudice of the congregation means the church isn't doing its job.

 

[peacefulseeker]

Too many Christians are losing their Christ. It's important that others don't follow in their footsteps. Our souls depend on making the right decisions.

 

[FireDragon76]

It may be "fairly common" but Romans 12:2 and onward. Preaching to the prejudice of the congregation means the church isn't doing its job.

The problem I notice is many people on the church council have little or no theological training and probably catechesis that is ancient and bad to begin with. It's all "our creeds and our confessions" blah blah blah, but... they don't seem to care much about what other Christians would call sanctification or discipleship, if it involves steeping out of their socially prescribed comfort zone.

Many mainline churches don't have pastors that make alot of decisions about day-to-day operation of the church. He (or she) is more like an advisor, but the church council don't really have to listen to him in the end, they could fire him if they don't like him. In some cases, the pastor can even be bullied by people in the congregation, it does happen.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The problem I notice is many people on the church council have little or no theological training and probably catechesis that is ancient and bad to begin with.

Many mainline churches don't have authoritarian institutions. The pastor doesn't have the kind of authority to really determine alot of what happens in the church. He is more like an advisor, but they don't really have to listen to him in the end, they could fire him if they don't like him. In some cases, the pastor can even be bullied by people in the congregation, it does happen.

Kind of like in the book of judges, the tribes were supposed to pay tithes to support the levites who didn't own land .. instead the levites became dependent on whatever salary they could get from those who employed them .. very similar situation.

And in those days ... there was no Christ in the Church .. every one did as they saw fit.

 

[FireDragon76]

Kind of like in the book of judges, the tribes were supposed to pay tithes to support the levites who didn't own land .. instead the levites became dependent on whatever salary they could get from those who employed them .. very similar situation.

And in those days ... there was no Christ in the Church .. every one did as they saw fit.

The sad thing is mainline churches send pastors to seminaries where they get the equivalent of a master's degree, they must study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, church history, systematic theology, pastoral counselling, etc., and they get paid a fraction of what they would in a non-religious vocation with a similar education.

It's more like Gulliver being tied down by Liliputians. Pastors can rarely preach what they've really been taught in seminary, because most people don't want to hear anything much more sophisticated and challenging than what could be contained in a typical children's sermon, with far less beating about the bush.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The sad thing is mainline churches send pastors to seminaries where they get the equivalent of a master's or doctorate degree, they must study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, church history, patristics, systematic theology, etc., and they get paid a fraction of what they would in a non-religious vocation with a similar education.

It's more like Gulliver being tied down by Liliputians. Pastors can rarely preach what they've really been taught in seminary, because most people don't want to hear anything much more sophisticated and challenging than what could be contained in a typical children's sermon, with far less beating about the bush.

It is really difficult to find a proper audience for the more academic stuff.

Even just a discussion among people who have read the bible and have a general working knowledge of what it says.

So finding a specialized audience who want to focus on "the love message" would be near impossible.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is really difficult to find a proper audience for the more academic stuff.

Even just a discussion among people who have read the bible and have a general working knowledge of what it says.

So finding a specialized audience who want to focus on "the love message" would be near impossible.

Contrary to what conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalist say about liberal mainline Protestant churches, many people in the pews are alot more conservative and conventional in their faith. And they get alot of their attitudes from the same places conservative Evangelicals do, from folk religion and the wider culture. And some particular congregations have social dynamics where it seems that this gets frozen in and baked in.

You see this particularly when religion is offered up as "timeless truth" to buffer its adherents against a complexifying world. Even my local Lutheran church has this imagery; it's architecture is shaped like an abstract art version of Noah's Ark.

I think that might have more than a little bit of influence on peoples mentality on the inside. They aren't going to church to hear how the pastor really think's Teilhard de Chardin's idea of the Cosmic Christ is inspiring and poetic, and makes sense of his appreciation of the natural world. They'ld rather hear how they are OK the way they are because Jesus paid for all their sins, no matter how much their kids are on prescription drugs because they find their lives banal and loveless. Because, of course, mommy and daddy are too busy keeping up with the Jones's in the American rat race, and deeply out of touch with their own being in the world.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Contrary to what conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalist say about liberal mainline Protestant churches, many people in the pews are alot more conservative and conventional in their faith. And they get alot of their attitudes from the same places conservative Evangelicals do, from folk religion and the wider culture. And some particular congregations have social dynamics where it seems that this gets frozen in and baked in.

You see this particularly when religion is offered up as "timeless truth" to buffer its adherents against a world of confusion. Even my local Lutheran church has this imagery; it's architecture is shaped like an abstract art version of Noah's Ark.

I think that might have more than a little bit of influence on peoples mentality on the inside. They aren't going to church to hear how the pastor really think's Teilhard de Chardin's idea of the Cosmic Christ is inspiring and makes much more sense than 16th century religious certanties, they'ld rather hear how they are OK the way they are because Jesus paid for all their sins, no matter how much their kids are on prescription drugs because they find their lives banal and loveless, because mommy and daddy are too busy keeping up with the Jones's in the American rat race.

I attended a liberal church, and noticed quite a few conservative types. Blind to their own issues, but very quick to point out anything that didn't hit too close to home. Not much different than the evangelical type churches with their one blind spot per congregation deal.

 

[FireDragon76]

I attended a liberal church, and noticed quite a few conservative types. Blind to their own issues, but very quick to point out anything that didn't hit too close to home. Not much different than the evangelical type churches with their one blind spot per congregation deal.

I think that's why Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote so much of "religionless Christianity" in his last works. The Christian religious project as it has been practiced traditionally has been revealed to be slipshod work and rickety, because it's serving so many different masters. A quest for a lasting political power's moral foundations, an immortality project of narcissistic egoes, etc. Everything except "loving the neighbor in front of you".

 

[Ceallaigh]

I walked out of our Lutheran (ELCA) church this evening, at the evening service (we have been visiting the local UCC church in the mornings). The service began with the priest introducing the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol. My blood ran cold, and I just couldn't participate in the service after that, and I left.

As some might know here, I've had issues with how this church handles "security" before. But I think this crosses a line, for many reasons. For one thing, I took an ethics class in college, and one of the lesson plans involved listening to C. Everett Koop discussing ethics with a group of people, and Dr. Koop said he wouldn't have a problem ethically with giving money to somebody who might be an alcoholic, because he understood that alcohol withdrawl can be dangerous . I also think it's incredibly judgemental to assume that a homeless person is an alcoholic and/or wouldn't know how to use the money wisley, like its a subtle denial of the dignity of homeless people in general. It's just wrong on many levels. Jesus said to give to the person who asks, after all.


So, disappointed, I left at the beginning of the service with my S.O. I am not sure what to do now, and I am looking for advice.


I give money to homeless people all the time, everybody in my family does. A year ago I gave money to somebody nonchalantly who was begging at a fast food restaurant. I didn't even consider myself a Christian really anymore, but I just did it out of compassion, without any thought. I wonder how people can be so afraid to help other people and cut them a break? Why are homeless people so scary to some people? I just believe in giving because I want to be the change in the world I want to see. I don't want to be a fearful person who says "no" to somebody else that "makes me uncomfortable". However much discomfort I feel, I'm betting the other person is feeling alot more in asking for money.

I disagree with the priest in that most of them are buying cheap deadly drugs like crack and tranq* rather than alcohol or at least ahead of alcohol. The number of addicts to cheap street drugs is growing exponentially.

*Tranq (Warning the effects of this new cheap highly addictive street drug may be destressing to read about).

Usually the cash you're handing them becomes poison going into their veins. They get their food through EBT.

I live in the heart of downtown and I see this going on around me daily. I've seen the number of drug addicts on the street triple in the last five years. It's become a serious epidemic.

 

[Unqualified]

Don’t you think this is a little like gossiping about this church. Leave or don’t. You haven’t really got any good advice but you’ve talked it up good. This is their business.

 

[FireDragon76]

I disagree with the priest in that most of them are buying cheap deadly drugs like crack and tranq* rather than alcohol or at least ahead of alcohol. The number of these cheap street drug addicts is growing exponentially.

*Tranq (Warning the effects of this new cheap highly addictive street drug may be destressing to read about).

In Orlando there's alot of petty crime more than serious crimes, and my guess that's how some people are getting their money for drugs. With alot of tourists, there's also alot of prostitution going on. Either way, not giving money to homeless people isn't going to be much of a deterrent to somebody with a drug addiction, not when there are so many ways to easily make money besides begging.

BTW, there's a relatively recent indie film called The Florida Project by director Sean Baker, about a woman and her kids that live in a cheap motel in Kissimmee. I would suggest that's a more realistic portrayal of a denizen of this area's underworld, than whatever fantasies middle class suburbanites have in their minds. The Florida Project is the single most realistic portrayal of this area I've ever seen in a dramatic film, in fact.