Crisis of meaning

[JM]

If you have been wondering what's going on in the world John Vervaeke's work and more importantly his guests, might be for you.

"John Vervaeke, PhD is a professor of cognitive science at the University of Toronto. His deeply complex, 50-part YouTube series 'Awakening from the Meaning Crisis' integrate science and spirituality to explore the very essence of humanity. Key takeaways: The Meaning Crisis has been exacerbated by the COVID pandemic."

"The Meaning Crisis is at the root of modern crises of mental health, the response to environmental collapse, and the political system. We are drowning in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] – literally “meaninglessness”. We feel disconnected from ourselves, each other, the world, and a viable future….Many people are talking about The Meaning Crisis, but what I want to argue is that these problems are deeper than just social media problems, political problems, even economic problems… they’re deeply historical, cultural, cognitive problems."

Normally you wouldn't start with a rebuttal video but I did as it was on auto play. My few notes are not meant to be conclusive but first reactions to the vid as it played. I'm new to many of these ideas so it will take time for me to catch up. I post this just to spark a conversation so I may continue to learn.

Vervaeke is good and I see his point (doesn't mean I agree) that the unintended consequences of Luther's Reformation lead to the current crisis of meaning. Without God, man can "by self determination/faith alone" become a self centered narcissist or self loathing individual (Nihilism). But can we participate in the Divine life with "faith alone?" Vervaeke doesn't believe so, he does acknowledged that Calvin solved the problem of participation in the Divine with double predestination, however, he disagreed with Calvin's premises.

Vervaeke deals a lot with Buddhism and Buddhist psychology and it's concerning to see he is writing a book with an Orthodox Bishop who said it was Greek philosophy that lead him to a deeper understanding of the faith (not the Jewish worldview but the Greek). This was said in a different video. To me it seems Vervaeke and the Bishop find common ground in Neoplatonism and that is their touchstone but I could be wrong and often am.

Thought provoking.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[FireDragon76]

I wish more Christians would discuss his ideas, particularly pastors. Alot of churches really need to, because he's done alot of research and what he's talking about is 100-percent legit, as far as I can tell.

I am Lutheran and alot of people in my congregation have kids that are dealing with stuff like mental illness, to a truly disturbing degree, despite having gone through baptism, catechisms, and confirmation- they "graduate" out of church attendance, or they just don't feel it's meaningful anymore. Based on my research over the years, which has been similar to Vervaeke's (but not as intellectually deep) this is due to the breakdown of the wider structures in our lives and in our society that allowed people to come into contact with reality on a deeper level than the conscious mind. We treat religion as a just propositions or head knowledge, "10 impossible things before breakfast", understood through instrumental reason at best (what's good for me, the "having" mode of being, as Vervaeke says), and we're missing the sense of suspended (sacred) spaces, liminality, and communitas.

Probably the most salient solution is a greater focus on sacramentality and incarnational spirituality. I would say more but it's probably best left to another part of the forum.

So, feel free to open a thread elsewhere, I hope this subject gets a wider audience.

 

[JM]

Well, I won't complain if people want to openly discuss this topic, I was aiming more at a Reformed response but Protestants in general should feel free to respond.

Due to my own crisis of meaning, not really a crisis but as Augustine said, "faith seeking understanding," I have attended a Lutheran (LCMS) church the last two Sunday's. Modern evangelicals are so disconnected to their Reformed roots it's astonishing.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[FireDragon76]

Vervaeke actually has a dialogue with Jordan Cooper (ELC Lutheran pastor) and Paul Vanderklay (Reformed Church in America pastor), where some of these issues are addressed. I think Pr. Cooper has an uphill battle, though, because most American Lutherans are going to be more interested in what's happening in Lake Wobegon and "keeping up with the Jones's" there, than trying to deepen the meaning of their spiritual lives, much less introduce some changes at their churches.

I'm in the ELCA in a relatively conservative congregation, mostly midwestern transplants and retirees. I talked with my former pastor about some of these things over the years, and we had a deacon that was into "High Church" Lutheranism, and the pastor experimented with some high church practices. His preaching was broader than the sort of thing you see among some Lutherans, which is a kind of flat Law-Gospel preaching. But now the pastor has left for a new call and we have an interim pastor, so it's up in the air which way the congregation goes. Lutherans tend to be quiet and passive(aggressive), and the previous pastor was very charismatic, so he could get people to go along with his style of religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean they liked it.

There's an old joke from Nadia Bolz-Weber that Lutherans are "religious, but not spiritual", and often that is true. That can be both good or bad. Sometimes it means a kind of minimalistic, rationalistic religion of propositions, creeds, and morals, the sort of think Vervaeke is criticizing, where the emphasis is on studying catechisms, the Ten Commandments, memorizing creeds, memorizing Bible verses, etc. but not much on real spiritual formation and where active piety or mysticism is rejected as unnecessary, prideful, or even dangerous. That's the bad side of "religious, but not spiritual".

Sure, we have alot of the embodied practices that Vervake would probably like (we usually sing or chant the psalms, most all of our churches have kneelers, many still have altar rails, most have weekly communion), but the significance is often minimized and held within tight 17th century, rationalistic theological bounds. It only gets worse the more conservative you go among Lutherans (my pastor loaned me a work by Chemnitz as part of my catechism. And it was torture to read compared to Alexander Schmemann's For the Life of the World, for instance).

My sense of the meaning crisis in churches is that the underlying gravity of many denominations in our culture is to resist change, so, it's an uphill battle. The elders or councilemembers in alot of these churches are just not very theologically or philosophically educated and often are seemingly perfectly happy about the way things are going (even while overall church attendance declines and more people identify as "nones"), don't want change (or don't understand the need), and aren't particularly missionally minded. It's hard to get them to understand that young people see the world in very different ways and simply aren't as interested in big narratives about the world, but they are longing for things like connection, community, and demonstrable wisdom. As long as churches keep sticking their head in the sand, they will keep losing people.

 

[The Righterzpen]

There's a Professor Mattis Desmet who calls the greater society's experience of the loss of meaning as "demoralization". Which speaks to the truth that this "loss of direction" isn't just happening in the church.

I picked up a book in Barns & Nobel recently called "Failure to Launch" and it's about the trend of young adults still living with their parents; despite the parents have "done their best" to give their children everything (opportunity and material support) they need to succeed. The young adults just seem "unmotivated"; and struggle with depression and other mental health issues, substance abuse, loneliness, lack of community connection and as Professor Desmet puts it: demoralization.

Solomon put it this way: "Vanity of vanities; all is vanity!"

I purchased the "Failure to Launch" book just because I was curious. I have a 21 year old son; whom like so many other people in his age bracket, lives with me. My son's in a "different category" though, as he has some pretty severe health issues that make him both unemployable and unable to attend school. He has intractable epilepsy and we're looking at brain surgery at this point. Then we have medication consequences. 16 years on Depekote has given him severe osteoporosis. (He's off that med.) One of the consequences of his health issues is that he sleeps a lot, and has little tolerance for simple activities like walking around the block. The pandemic hit and basically he's spent the last three years in the house with the exception of going to the doctor. He started private martial arts lessons for the first time in his life about 8 months ago. An hour a week. His sensie is very understanding; but basically it's just physical therapy. After 8 months, he's worked up to about 45 minute tolerance of physical activity. So.... as things stand; if surgery doesn't help him; where does one go from there? (I guess one "consolation" is, if this fist full of "elected" idiots do actually start WWIII; he'll never be drafted!)

But, young people who are perfectly healthy fall into this "demoralization" also; thus why the suicide and drug overdose rates are so high.

There's no denying, we live in a time that tries mens' souls!

Personally, I'm trying to figure out; as Michael W. Smith sang decades ago: "I'm looking for a reason, roaming through the night to find my place in this world. Not a lot to lean on; I need Your light to help me find my place is this word!"

Now I'm 52 years old and have had multitudes of... catastrophic trials in my life. I've been a believer for about 35 years at this point. I certainly know the experience of "church ritual". And I do have comfort and peace in my life. (I also have a certain degree of financial stability; which a LOT of people don't have!) Yet I ABSOLUTELY feel the stress of the times we live in too!

Covid and all the resulting fall out of it was a psychological nuke on the entire human race. There's no denying that. An undeniable manifestation of the presence of evil has "jumped up" and slapped all of us in the face these past 3 years. I had a very different perspective on the meaning of life prior to this; that I don't have any more. Thank God I have redemption. I have good coping skills which have brought me to a place of psychological and emotional stability. Yet I'm but one more "boat" adrift on this sea of insanity!

Thus my "closing saying" on everything I post: Vaxxed or Unvaxxed - we're all in this psy-op together!

Still the inevitable "black pill" hits all of us at some point: "There's nothing new under the sun!"

I hear ya both. And everyone else who notices this. I'm right there in the trenches with ya!

 

[FireDragon76]

Another thing that might be a factor is modern society in general. All the Protestant reformers had a sacramental theology of vocation, but now society in the US is alot more fluid. Decades of neoliberal economics, romantic individualism, and consumerism have eroded the sense of stability and connection in the structures of society. Steady employment allowed people to support a family, it gave people the confidence to settle down and participate in a community, and dignity as a productive participant in that same community. Now, in many states, many workers can be compelled to work at any time, and don't have time for community-building activities or activities that might lead to personal growth outside of their jobs. And many people have garbage jobs, too, it's been estimated, for instance, that 1/3 of the jobs in the UK are unproductive. Lots of people work at these jobs of course, because they need the money, but they are demoralised in doing so.

So my hunch is that the sense of the sacredeness of ordinary life, which was a big part of the vision of the magisterial reformers, just doesn't work as well in the modern world, where we are so cut off from the context that made it possible (and I don't think it's going to fall back into place, either, because the whole thing was an organic, interconnected web, beyond any one individual or committee's abilities).

 

[The Righterzpen]

So my hunch is that the sense of the sacredeness of ordinary life, which was a big part of the vision of the magisterial reformers, just doesn't work as well in the modern world, where we are so cut off from the context that made it possible (and I don't think it's going to fall back into place, either, because the whole thing was an organic, interconnected web, beyond any one individual or committee's abilities).

Fundamentally speaking I agree with you. Although I think it's difficult to make certain connections between the distant past and the present because the stressors that affected people 200 / 300 / 400 years ago are very different than the stressors that affect us.

I think the notion of "connectedness" still exists (at least in theory) except it's been extrapolated to the international level. And that's so distant from me and the next door neighbors and our local "neighborhood picnic" (small town community events outside of things like 4th of July or Memorial Day - I live in rural "small town America") that it becomes irrelevant. One thing I think all of us suffer from is WAY too much information over load.

Another factor I think we can throw into the mix that you are speaking to; is transportation. In places were people are dependent on limited public transit, or animals as opposed to automobiles; one is forced to rely on the limitations of how far your horse can trot. There's one factor that bore more weight on communities of the past than it bears now. Thus I think is part of the fracturing of society.

Another is medical care. People survive things now that they never would have 100 years ago.

Of course these things in and of themselves aren't "bad". But the ability to do so "en mass" presents a radically different paradigm of possibilities for the individual in today's society that didn't exist 100 or more years ago. Did people of the past "dream" about "the better life" more than we do today; (look at cities in the height of the industrial revolution = not very pleasant for the average laborer); assuming so because of the drive for improvement. And in a culture that pretty much had a monolithic religious identity; at least most people had Sunday off.

But compare that against the stressors of living in crowded tenement housing working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week at a sewing machine, or loom while your husband is out cleaning the streets of horse poo and your 3 kids between 4 and 9 are roaming the factory picking up scraps of fabric and thread. Would we say they were "more spiritual" at their view of labor; more than they were just trying to survive?

We have that historical reality to consider over and against the people who had the time, education (and servants, or slaves) to write eloquent theological discourses about "honoring the sanctity of everyday life". That dichotomy in and of itself is it's own "psy-op".

And here we are "working class" type people communicating with essentially strangers all over the world, about these ideas over an electronic platform. And this has become part of our own "communities". In a rather ironic way; we've become "lost in our own blessings".


So yes, no matter how we approach the subject of human suffering; I take for granted that we are all aware that there's not one easy answer. (And I'm not accusing anyone of saying there's an easy answer.) There's not even a formula for a set of easy answers.


And to that end; my prayer life has essentially become: "God, teach me wisdom and give me the courage and perseverance just to do the next thing You put in front of me!"

I enjoy these types of conversations though. I think it's useful for us to encounter others; that we know we aren't alone in all of this. Which I think is the fundamental reason why God created Adam and Eve. "It's not good that man be alone." That's just as applicable to 7 billion individuals as it was to Adam.

 

[JM]

I will come back to this thread in the near future but I've found two titles very helpful.

The first is, "Has American Christianity" by Wolfmueller and "Ordinary" by Horton. But titles will help navigate the problems we are experience in the modern church, where we went off the rails and how we can return to the ancient landmarks.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[FireDragon76]

Fundamentally speaking I agree with you. Although I think it's difficult to make certain connections between the distant past and the present because the stressors that affected people 200 / 300 / 400 years ago are very different than the stressors that affect us.

I think the notion of "connectedness" still exists (at least in theory) except it's been extrapolated to the international level. And that's so distant from me and the next door neighbors and our local "neighborhood picnic" (small town community events outside of things like 4th of July or Memorial Day - I live in rural "small town America") that it becomes irrelevant. One thing I think all of us suffer from is WAY too much information over load.

Another factor I think we can throw into the mix that you are speaking to; is transportation. In places were people are dependent on limited public transit, or animals as opposed to automobiles; one is forced to rely on the limitations of how far your horse can trot. There's one factor that bore more weight on communities of the past than it bears now. Thus I think is part of the fracturing of society.

Another is medical care. People survive things now that they never would have 100 years ago.

Of course these things in and of themselves aren't "bad". But the ability to do so "en mass" presents a radically different paradigm of possibilities for the individual in today's society that didn't exist 100 or more years ago. Did people of the past "dream" about "the better life" more than we do today; (look at cities in the height of the industrial revolution = not very pleasant for the average laborer); assuming so because of the drive for improvement. And in a culture that pretty much had a monolithic religious identity; at least most people had Sunday off.

But compare that against the stressors of living in crowded tenement housing working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week at a sewing machine, or loom while your husband is out cleaning the streets of horse poo and your 3 kids between 4 and 9 are roaming the factory picking up scraps of fabric and thread. Would we say they were "more spiritual" at their view of labor; more than they were just trying to survive?

We have that historical reality to consider over and against the people who had the time, education (and servants, or slaves) to write eloquent theological discourses about "honoring the sanctity of everyday life". That dichotomy in and of itself is it's own "psy-op".

And here we are "working class" type people communicating with essentially strangers all over the world, about these ideas over an electronic platform. And this has become part of our own "communities". In a rather ironic way; we've become "lost in our own blessings".


So yes, no matter how we approach the subject of human suffering; I take for granted that we are all aware that there's not one easy answer. (And I'm not accusing anyone of saying there's an easy answer.) There's not even a formula for a set of easy answers.


And to that end; my prayer life has essentially become: "God, teach me wisdom and give me the courage and perseverance just to do the next thing You put in front of me!"

I enjoy these types of conversations though. I think it's useful for us to encounter others; that we know we aren't alone in all of this. Which I think is the fundamental reason why God created Adam and Eve. "It's not good that man be alone." That's just as applicable to 7 billion individuals as it was to Adam.

I do think cars, automobiles, and suburban development have done something to the American psyche, much moreso than has been experienced in Europe, which has been secular for decades, and yet hasn't had as dramatic a rise in mental health problems. It's not all about religion. A hypermobility in individual conveyances has contributed alot to the breakdown of people actually experiencing the giveness of the world, and perhaps left many people more isolated and fragile as a result.

What I'm mostly interested in, is if it's possible religion could help reorient people away from the madness. I would like to see more "apostles of basic sanity". I don't think that can happen unless people become more grounded in the kinds of things Vervaeke is talking about, first: participatory experiences that take people out of the "having mode". Otherwise, people will keep seeking salvation in whatever Politicians, Madison Avenue, and Silicon Valley tech companies promise, to their long-term detriment.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I do think cars, automobiles, and suburban development have done something to the American psyche, much moreso than has been experienced in Europe, which has been secular for decades, and yet hasn't had as dramatic a rise in mental health problems. It's not all about religion. A hypermobility in individual conveyances has contributed alot to the breakdown of people actually experiencing the giveness of the world, and perhaps left many people more isolated and fragile as a result.

What I'm mostly interested in, is if it's possible religion could help reorient people away from the madness. I would like to see more "apostles of basic sanity". I don't think that can happen unless people become more grounded in the kinds of things Vervaeke is talking about, first: participatory experiences that take people out of the "having mode". Otherwise, people will keep seeking salvation in whatever Politicians, Madison Avenue, and Silicon Valley tech companies promise, to their long-term detriment.

Mental health stats in Europe are something that would need to be researched before making a good comparison between Europe and the US. I don't know what those stats are and likely they have changed in the past 3 years. Personally though I'm not inclined to believe that Europeans are psychologically healthier than Americans. It's just that their manifestation of dysfunction is different.

One stat that does bear out across the global population though; is that delusional type disorders like Schizophrenia have a statistically significant increase in urban populations over rural populations. I remember encountering that stat in a research project I was doing for one of my college classes. I couldn't find any verifiable data on reasons why that was the case? There were some theories, but an easily identifiable causal factor that stuck out as a common denominator was elusive. Also though, there's a correlation between substance abuse and delusional disorders; which again, is the correlation due to causal relationships, or result of self medicating the delusions? The associations there have always been fuzzy.

As far as the question of religion reorientation people against the madness? It's quite likely that would be effective, because positive introspective examination does tend to have a stabilizing effect on behavior. Thus the success of 12 step groups and other similar self help / support type organizations.

From a psychological standpoint, a lot of what any type of positive introspection does is provide a learning perimeter for coping / tools at learning resilience. And resilience (pragmatic "positive" thinking") is a learned skill. It's just some people learn it from within the family structure and others from outside the family structure. Keeping in mind too that "having mode" (like hoarding or shopping addictions, or "keeping up with the Jones" etc.) are more symptoms of "an empty soul" so to speak and not the problem themselves.

That being said though; there is a component that active belief in a supportive deity; (be it expressed in organized religion or not) is a key component to mental health and resilience. Statistically speaking something like 98% of the human race believes in a god of some form. But strictly as a psychological factor; beliefs that promote stable mental health are not consigned to just Christianity. There are people of other religions that I know who are psychologically healthy compared to secular atheists or humanists. And this is where I think the conviction that there exists some "higher power" outside of self, tends to give the required psychological space for reigning in the emotions.

Thus I think some of what's happening in people who put their trust in institutions of society (like education, political ideologies, science, medicine etc); once the trust in those institutions starts to come unraveled (which is why Covid was such a global psy-op), this causes a huge emotional upheaval, because these individuals have no other stabilizing influence to "guide self". A lot of them don't even have family; or at least average functional families. "Let God be true and every man a liar." And when that starts to come unraveled; look out, your society will have problems. And if it breaks down far enough; the pitch forks will come out.

Yet one saving grace in all of this, (which I attribute to the reflection in the conscience that humans are created in the image of God); is that it's rather rare that societies totally collapse. The human psyche is constructed in such a way that when a power vacuum appears; invariably someone steps in the gap to reestablish order. And this happens with a certain inherent "consent of the people"; as we all know total anarchy is a bad thing. Now is this person a benevolent dictator or a tyrant? Usually, a fair assessment from all sides of history says that they are generally some combination of both.

Professor Desmet has explained too that there's a difference between a classical dictator and the totalitarian state. And fortunately totalitarian states tend to be "self limiting". (The small scale examples being how cults last usually only the life of the leader.) On a national level; look at the Soviet Union. People learned to navigate around the system. Sometimes in morally honest ways and sometimes in morally dishonest ways; and enough people did so that eventually the apparatus of that system collapsed. And though things got chaotic; (the decade of the 90's things were tough there) notice that the entire society structure of Russia and eastern Europe didn't collapse.

And as it stands right now; at least financially and economically, Russia is probably in the best shape of any other nation on this earth. Their money is backed by gold, they have industrial power and lots of natural resources, plus strong leadership. Regardless of any western opinion on Putin; he undoubtedly is a "Russia first" leader. The US has lost two legs of that economic stool and we have pedophile with dementia playing President. (Not a good look!) China is hampered internal political conflict and lack of natural resources to keep the industrial engine going; despite having the manufacturing and their currency is backed by gold now too.

So yeah, a lot of factors as well as different factors and combinations of factors for everyone.

And all that being said; yes, I believe life in this country is going to be hard / get worse for at least the next couple of years. A lot of people are trying some Herculean (and some very deceitful) human efforts to control the descent into global depression while the national populist leaders are sifting to the top.

Thus in one sense the only thing we can do is wait on this whole thing unfolding, pray for wisdom and jump on the opportunities to work for the best political decisions that build stability and community resilience from the ground up! "Live local" as they say. Still, it's going to be a rocky road. Get creative, build and teach resilience.

 

[JM]

Is Orthodox Christianity Neoplatonism?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you have been wondering what's going on in the world John Vervaeke's work and more importantly his guests, might be for you.

"John Vervaeke, PhD is a professor of cognitive science at the University of Toronto. His deeply complex, 50-part YouTube series 'Awakening from the Meaning Crisis' integrate science and spirituality to explore the very essence of humanity. Key takeaways: The Meaning Crisis has been exacerbated by the COVID pandemic."

"The Meaning Crisis is at the root of modern crises of mental health, the response to environmental collapse, and the political system. We are drowning in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] – literally “meaninglessness”. We feel disconnected from ourselves, each other, the world, and a viable future….Many people are talking about The Meaning Crisis, but what I want to argue is that these problems are deeper than just social media problems, political problems, even economic problems… they’re deeply historical, cultural, cognitive problems."

Normally you wouldn't start with a rebuttal video but I did as it was on auto play. My few notes are not meant to be conclusive but first reactions to the vid as it played. I'm new to many of these ideas so it will take time for me to catch up. I post this just to spark a conversation so I may continue to learn.

Vervaeke is good and I see his point (doesn't mean I agree) that the unintended consequences of Luther's Reformation lead to the current crisis of meaning. Without God, man can "by self determination/faith alone" become a self centered narcissist or self loathing individual (Nihilism). But can we participate in the Divine life with "faith alone?" Vervaeke doesn't believe so, he does acknowledged that Calvin solved the problem of participation in the Divine with double predestination, however, he disagreed with Calvin's premises.

Vervaeke deals a lot with Buddhism and Buddhist psychology and it's concerning to see he is writing a book with an Orthodox Bishop who said it was Greek philosophy that lead him to a deeper understanding of the faith (not the Jewish worldview but the Greek). This was said in a different video. To me it seems Vervaeke and the Bishop find common ground in Neoplatonism and that is their touchstone but I could be wrong and often am.

Thought provoking.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Can you give us a synopsis? I don't have a lot of data available.

 

[JM]

I honestly could not do it justice just having been introduced to the idea recently. Over the last few months I left the Baptist church I was in and have been attending a Lutheran Church so I've had my hands full. Not sure where I'll end up but I'll always be loving the Lord and trying my best to serve Him.

As I understand it, the West is anchored in Neo Platonic thought having come to us in Christianity. The church has lost dominance and so the West has lost its Neo Platonic roots that help us connect to the Divine. We have lost our sense of "magic" or the supernatural leaving us as mere animals, machine like and disconnected from our human reality.

I find it odd that a Buddhist and Orthodox Christian agree substantially, however, I'm still brand new to it all.

I hope that helps you to dig deeper and perhaps even correct me where I've erred.