I walked out of church today

[Ceallaigh]

In Orlando there's alot of petty crime more than serious crimes, and my guess that's how some people are getting their money for drugs. With alot of tourists, there's also alot of prostitution going on. Either way, not giving money to homeless people isn't going to be much of a deterrent to somebody with a drug addiction, not when there are so many ways to easily make money besides begging.

BTW, there's a relatively recent indie film called The Florida Project by director Sean Baker, about a woman and her kids that live in a cheap motel in Kissimmee. I would suggest that's a more realistic portrayal of a denizen of this area's underworld, than whatever fantasies middle class suburbanites have in their minds. The Florida Project is the single most realistic portrayal of this area I've ever seen in a dramatic film, in fact.

I don't need to watch it on film. I live right in the middle of it. I'm quite literally surrounded by it night and day. I'm telling you how it is as a firsthand eyewitness.

Furthermore I work as an outdoor security guard in a bigger city than the one I live in, so I deal with street addicts on the job as well.

Many of these folks when they manage to get clean, go on to live more prosperously than I do.

 

[FireDragon76]

Don’t you think this is a little like gossiping about this church. Leave or don’t. You haven’t really got any good advice but you’ve talked it up good. This is their business.

I don't think its gossip if one is talking about their own church and looking for other possible perspectives.

Keep in mind this is a section of the forum for discussing Mainline Protestant or progressive Evangelical religion. There's alot less implicit individualism and potentially a different ecclessiology from American Evangelicals. I'm a type 4 on the Enneagram, an INFP, and sometimes my feelings are not good guides to reality, so I was looking to get other peoples valid perspectives, and it's hard to do that without discussing details.

So, just seeing it as "their business" isn't really fair. It's not just their business, it's my business, too, because I am a member of this congregation and this denomination in question. Churches aren't merely collections of individuals who happen to agree with each other, they are involved in each others lives as one body. I perceived it to be such a serious matter, I refused to participate in the sacraments with them. So it's not just some kind of political or social stance where autonomous individuals just happen to disagree. This is a grave matter that potentially involves the spiritual health of individuals, myself included.

 

[Philip_B]

I don't think its gossip if one is talking about their own church and looking for other possible perspectives.

Keep in mind this is a section of the forum for discussing Mainline Protestant or progressive Evangelical religion. There's alot less implicit individualism and potentially a different ecclessiology from American Evangelicals. I'm a type 4 on the Enneagram, an INFP, and sometimes my feelings are not good guides to reality, so I was looking to get other peoples valid perspectives, and it's hard to do that without discussing details.

So, just seeing it as "their business" isn't really fair. It's not just their business, it's my business, too, because I am a member of this congregation and this denomination in question. Churches aren't merely collections of individuals who happen to agree with each other, they are involved in each others lives as one body. I perceived it to be such a serious matter, I refused to participate in the sacraments with them. So it's not just some kind of political or social stance where autonomous individuals just happen to disagree. This is a grave matter that potentially involves the spiritual health of individuals, myself included.

I agree with you.

Romans 5:6-11 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

The Church and the Congregation to which we belong is that group who for the most part we want to say 'These are my people and This is my Tribe', and it is an anchor by which we are fed and enabled to be the Body of Christ in the world, sent forth in our baptismal covenant to Shine as a Light in the World to the Glory of God the Father.

The service began with the priest introducing the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol.

I guess the real question has to be how should we respond to this homeless person.

Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Where is your brother Abel?’ He said, ‘I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?’

Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”

I am not about the condemn anyone, Clergyperson or Security Officer, however, we do need to find a way to respond to human needs and suffering in real and meaningful ways.

Kindness is still on the list of fruits of the Spirit.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

The sad thing is mainline churches send pastors to seminaries where they get the equivalent of a master's degree, they must study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, church history, systematic theology, pastoral counselling, etc., and they get paid a fraction of what they would in a non-religious vocation with a similar education.

It's more like Gulliver being tied down by Liliputians. Pastors can rarely preach what they've really been taught in seminary, because most people don't want to hear anything much more sophisticated and challenging than what could be contained in a typical children's sermon, with far less beating about the bush.

Like the old parish council prayer says,

Lord, send us a pastor humble and poor.
You keep him humble, we'll keep him poor.

 

[Paidiske]

Ha. In my experience they'll do their best to keep one humble, too.

 

[FireDragon76]

Like the old parish council prayer says,

Lord, send us a pastor humble and poor.
You keep him humble, we'll keep him poor.

A bit of dark humor

There was another great indie film a few years ago called First Reformed, a dark drama about a Dutch Reformed pastor (played by Ethan Hawke) in rural New York, and his descent into guilt and madness, powerless in the face of ethical dilemmas and powerful bullies in the local town. It reminds me of the sort of dynamics we are discussing here.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Years ago, we did have a warning about scam artists canvassing local churches. There was a guy that would hit 2-3 churches each Sunday morning asking for bus fare to Florida. The next Sunday he'd try this with 2-3 other parishes. After a few Sundays, he would then start over again. So we did get a warning not to give money to him or to have the church handle it.

 

[Blade]

Yeah not wise to hand out money to homeless its why most give food place to stay blah blah blah. ...so when anyone gives its their heart that matters and they are giving to God.

No offense but only hearing one side here..

 

[FireDragon76]

Ha. In my experience they'll do their best to keep one humble, too.

As I recall, you've talked about experiencing bullying in congregations?

It seems to me this is a dynamic that is seldom part of the discourse about religion in developed, western nations. Too much is all about the pastor and his or her faults. Is that due to the bias in seeing religions as only authoritarian, monarchical institutions?

 

[Paidiske]

As I recall, you've talked about experiencing bullying in congregations?

Yes, but even when there isn't bullying, there's no place to hide; and people are often quick to offer what I might describe as robust feedback.

It seems to me this is a dynamic that is seldom part of the discourse about religion in developed, western nations. Too much is all about the pastor and his or her faults. Is that due to the bias in seeing religions as only authoritarian, monarchical institutions?

Perhaps. I think there are other factors at play, too. We feel an obligation to be nice and kind; not to complain publicly about our congregations, and so on. The conversation you'll hear amongst clergy when we're on our own, as against when we're amongst others, might be very different in the level of honest venting.

Also I think there are some other attitudes in play; perhaps that we pay the pastor for their time, so they have to put up with however we treat them (that's not everywhere, but I have encountered it).

And also - this is something I find difficult to put into words - but there is a degree to which what the pastor has to deal with, in all sorts of ways, is not visible. Just to give a personal example, I've been working far too much over the last few months. I'm currently owed eight days in lieu for days off I haven't been able to take. I'm tired, and struggling to manage everything on my plate. And when I tried to push back gently on some not-so-necessary stuff, I got a lecture from my office admin volunteer (who has a heart of gold and a very blunt, no-filter way of expressing herself) which included the observation that she has no idea what I do all day. But there's no good way to necessarily make some of that more visible without it becoming either, "Poor me, I'm so hard done by," or, "Look at me, I'm so awesome!" I was talking about this with a colleague, and she made the observation that congregations don't want to know the realities of ministry, because if they did, it might demand something of them, and they like to be comfortable. That might be a cynical observation, but I reckon there's something in it...

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, but even when there isn't bullying, there's no place to hide; and people are often quick to offer what I might describe as robust feedback.

Perhaps. I think there are other factors at play, too. We feel an obligation to be nice and kind; not to complain publicly about our congregations, and so on. The conversation you'll hear amongst clergy when we're on our own, as against when we're amongst others, might be very different in the level of honest venting.

Also I think there are some other attitudes in play; perhaps that we pay the pastor for their time, so they have to put up with however we treat them (that's not everywhere, but I have encountered it).

And also - this is something I find difficult to put into words - but there is a degree to which what the pastor has to deal with, in all sorts of ways, is not visible. Just to give a personal example, I've been working far too much over the last few months. I'm currently owed eight days in lieu for days off I haven't been able to take. I'm tired, and struggling to manage everything on my plate. And when I tried to push back gently on some not-so-necessary stuff, I got a lecture from my office admin volunteer (who has a heart of gold and a very blunt, no-filter way of expressing herself) which included the observation that she has no idea what I do all day. But there's no good way to necessarily make some of that more visible without it becoming either, "Poor me, I'm so hard done by," or, "Look at me, I'm so awesome!" I was talking about this with a colleague, and she made the observation that congregations don't want to know the realities of ministry, because if they did, it might demand something of them, and they like to be comfortable. That might be a cynical observation, but I reckon there's something in it...

I think I understand. You feel like you are being treated more like a "cast member" of God's "Magic Kingdom", and the actual human effort to make things happen isn't appreciated.

That's similar to an analogy I made earlier discussing the situation I'm facing with my church, trying to work out the best way to deal with the situation, and privately discussing it with some people who are also members of my denomination. And I realized there's a "Disneyland" aspect to mainstream religion in the western world. I think some people want churches to be not so much suspended spaces, but antiseptic and yet hyperreal spaces, sort of like a spiritual theme park that is full of "magic" and profound significance, and all sharp edges are smoothed over (if it sounds impossible, I believe that's because it is). It's not surprising, given how powerful religion can be in peoples lives, and how often people use it for what is essentially known as "spiritual bypassing" (using religion or spirituality to avoid personal growth). And that impossibility no doubt creates a strong mechanism for scapegoating and resentment.

 

[Paidiske]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'll have to think about that some more.

(I realise we're getting off topic, but it's an interesting discussion; stop me when you've had enough!)

It's related to some other phenemona in the life of the church, too. For example, there's a church in my parish which we're currently not using for worship (long story) and may end up selling. Every so often I get requests from people outside the congregation to have a baptism or a wedding there, and I explain that it's not an active centre of worship and try to encourage them to come along to one of the churches which does actually have a worship community.

And inevitably I end up getting a whole thing about how sad it is that the church is closed, and how terrible that it might be sold, etc. etc. But not once, ever, does it seem to occur to these people who want their babies baptised in this place where their grandparents had some connection (or whatever) that if they want to see it stay open as a vibrant worshipping community, they might, I don't know, need to come along and be part of that?

It's like, the church just exists without being impacted by community or financial realities, sustained by some internal magical pool of resources, and is always going to be there to meet my level of need or desire without that requiring anything of me. And while those baptism families might be the most blatant example of that, on some level I think many people have a similar set of unexamined assumptions.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'll have to think about that some more.

(I realise we're getting off topic, but it's an interesting discussion; stop me when you've had enough!)

It's related to some other phenemona in the life of the church, too. For example, there's a church in my parish which we're currently not using for worship (long story) and may end up selling. Every so often I get requests from people outside the congregation to have a baptism or a wedding there, and I explain that it's not an active centre of worship and try to encourage them to come along to one of the churches which does actually have a worship community.

And inevitably I end up getting a whole thing about how sad it is that the church is closed, and how terrible that it might be sold, etc. etc. But not once, ever, does it seem to occur to these people who want their babies baptised in this place where their grandparents had some connection (or whatever) that if they want to see it stay open as a vibrant worshipping community, they might, I don't know, need to come along and be part of that?

It's like, the church just exists without being impacted by community or financial realities, sustained by some internal magical pool of resources, and is always going to be there to meet my level of need or desire without that requiring anything of me. And while those baptism families might be the most blatant example of that, on some level I think many people have a similar set of unexamined assumptions.

Something similar came up in a discussion with my mother yesterday, about her issues with her Methodist church and her bishop when she was getting married. I just told my mom "well, your bishop had a point, a church isn't a private wedding chapel. If people don't really like that, they can go to Vegas or get a civil ceremony".

On the one hand, I have alot of sympathy for people wanting to have those magic moments of celebration, but on the other hand, they seem to gloss over the fact religion is not all about them (perhaps a particular Achilles Heel among Lutherans in particular, with emphasis on Christ "for you" ?). I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't fundamentally down to western individualism and consumerism.

 

[public hermit]

I walked out of our Lutheran (ELCA) church this evening, at the evening service (we have been visiting the local UCC church in the mornings). The service began with the pastor introducing the security team leader advising us to not give money to homeless people, because it might attract more or them, and they might use the money to buy alcohol. My blood ran cold, and I just couldn't participate in the service after that, and I left.

As some might know here, I've had issues with how this church handles "security" before. But I think this crosses a line, for many reasons. For one thing, I took an ethics class in college, and one of the lesson plans involved listening to C. Everett Koop discussing ethics with a group of people, and Dr. Koop said he wouldn't have a problem ethically with giving money to somebody who might be an alcoholic, because he understood that alcohol withdrawl can be dangerous . I also think it's incredibly judgemental to assume that a homeless person is an alcoholic and/or wouldn't know how to use the money wisley, like its a subtle denial of the dignity of homeless people in general. It's just wrong on many levels. Jesus said to give to the person who asks, after all.


So, disappointed, I left at the beginning of the service with my S.O. I am not sure what to do now, and I am looking for advice.


I give money to homeless people all the time, everybody in my family does. A year ago I gave money to somebody nonchalantly who was begging at a fast food restaurant. I didn't even consider myself a Christian really anymore, but I just did it out of compassion, without any thought. I wonder how people can be so afraid to help other people and cut them a break? Why are homeless people so scary to some people? I just believe in giving because I want to be the change in the world I want to see. I don't want to be a fearful person who says "no" to somebody else that "makes me uncomfortable". However much discomfort I feel, I'm betting the other person is feeling alot more in asking for money.

I'm not a fan of that line of reasoning, at all. I find it highly annoying. If someone is afraid they'll use it to buy alcohol, give them enough for food and alcohol. And, honestly, what a bunch of self-righteous nonsense. Maybe if that pastor were homeless, they might want a drink, too. I try to give liberally, not just a couple bucks but at least a twenty or more if I have it on me (I even try to carry a twenty just for that purpose because I rarely use cash). I know some will buy alcohol, some alcohol and food, some maybe something else. It's not really for me to decide how they should use it. It's for me to give out of my abundance so they can have something, anything. They have a Lord and it ain't me. And trust me, I don't have an abundance compared to many, but I'm not homeless. I have work. I have shelter. I have a vehicle. And, I have money to spare because that is what my Lord told me to do-work so you have something to spare for the poor. I can't tell you how many folks on the street have said to me with genuine gratitude in their voice, "God bless you!" They are usually so grateful because they get a couple ones or a five. Lord have mercy, I'm so grateful I'm not homeless around a bunch of self-righteous, stingy people. Who would help me? I could lose my job, get sick, whatever. I don't have a lot of options if my thing falls through. Yeah, this is a definite sore spot for me.

 

[FireDragon76]

I talked to the church president a few hours ago. She is somebody I know and haven't seen in a while. Unfortunately, I am left with more questions that answers, the more I think about it.

She did say that they do support the homeless with vouchers and food when they can, but they are located a few blocks from a homeless shelter and they get more homeless than they want wandering by, and sometimes the little old ladies are made uncomfortable by the homeless.

I asked her to speak of any altercations with the homeless. She said 15-20 years ago, the former pastor, now deceased, Pr. Bergstresser, was confronted by a homeless man in the church who attempted to grab him (for an undisclosed reason). They also had homeless people sleeping in the flower bed years ago, and another time on the roof. I asked her to be more specific... how many homeless a month result in some kind of unsolicited contact with laity, staff or security? She could not say clearly how many a month, she didn't seem to know for sure... but my intuition is it's not many.

I am concerned that the prohibition on giving money will result in some potential conflicts with showing compassion to the homeless, despite the fact they are obviously taking some measures to not be needlessly indifferent. She also did not understand the moral hazards with presuming to "uplift" (her words) people by refusing them money they might potentially spend on booze or drugs, she only saw the denial of money in positive terms for their character, which I believe is judgemental and patronizing.

I have thought about it a while, and unfortunate I'm even more concerned that in addition to what I've already said, what is going on is problematic from a Lutheran POV, because it could potentially bind my conscience contrary to the Word of God. Like in a random situation, if I want to give a homeless person something, but I cannot get people in touch with the church resources (I don't know where they are), I cannot simply give them some money?. But there are also, admittedly small and debatable risks that might happen in the process.

So, the ethics of this are a bit unclear from a Lutheran perspective . On the one hand, it would otherwise be wrong to tell people they should not give money to the homeless just because it might attract more homeless, if there were no other considerations. On the other hand, I should respect the bound conscience of my weaker brothers and sisters, who are concerned about safety, even though I think the risk is very small, and I believe there is some prejudice towards the homeless still under the surface. So I am at a bit of a loss. My gut intuition says I may be forced to leave the church, but perhaps I should not hold them in the wrong.

 

[Paidiske]

I wonder whether it's possible to have compassion for your congregation members as people who are still learning and growing? Sure, we might see discomfort with homeless people as ethically problematic, but maybe this is part of the process people need to go through in growing into deeper compassion. If we trust the process, and the Spirit to be at work in the discomfort, we can see this as not the end point of their growth.

I don't know whether that might be a helpful approach or not?

 

[Philip_B]

I suspect this is going to need the approach 'so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves' Matthew 10:16

There is an overall approach that has to do with "What should our response be to homeless people?" It is possible to see Homeless People as a problem or to see Homeless People as People with a Problem. Depending on how you answer that question will lead to how you address the question of dealing with Homeless People. I believe a Christian response needs to be anchored in recognising and affirming the humanity of each Homeless person, a person created in the image and after the likeness of God.

Given your congregation is nearby a homeless shelter, maybe there is an opportunity for some interface or dialogue between the Homeless Shelter committee or governance and the parish community or governance. I think it was Martin Luther King who said 'we need hard heads and tender hearts, and sadly we often get it the wrong way around'.

I get that some of the older ladies of the Parish might find it distressing to be confronted by people wanting money, and if it happened on a regular basis that may not be helpful for them or the Parish. Of course, the absolute furphy in this discussion has been what they might spend the money on. I try, when I am giving money to ask the person how they are going and what is going on for them.

If there is a problem with Homelessness in the area, the solution may well be something other than a lack of charity, perhaps rather more addressing the housing shortage questions with those in power.

 

[FireDragon76]

I wonder whether it's possible to have compassion for your congregation members as people who are still learning and growing? Sure, we might see discomfort with homeless people as ethically problematic, but maybe this is part of the process people need to go through in growing into deeper compassion. If we trust the process, and the Spirit to be at work in the discomfort, we can see this as not the end point of their growth.

I don't know whether that might be a helpful approach or not?

I tried something like that in the past before, and I started developing panic attacks after a while, and I had to walk away from this church (then COVID came). The feeling of "yuck" started to get overwhelming. I am not sure the people are growing. TBH, they have been handled delicately for a very long time, that is evident talking at great length to my former pastor at the church. Both the people and the church building feel more than a bit like a museum (a museum from the late 60's, one of the worst times in American history in terms of architecture and interior design, BTW), full of pretty relics, but not a place that is full of living things. Do I also want to become an artifact? That is my fear, and that is not who I want to be. I do not want to be numbered among the living dead.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing I wonder about, as an INFP and Enneagram type 4 personality (the mystic or romantic, with alot of 5 also, the investigator), is how much of my own cognitive distortions are at play, though. My natural tendency is to feel I'm different from other people, and in many ways I think that is actually accurate, but it still has consequences. When I started studying the Enneagram back in early 2018, I realized my panic attacks might have something to do with a misplaced desire to help people and be self-sacrificial, and not pursue truth and ethical principles. With a strong type 5 wing, that can also be problematic, because the temptation is not to speak out and assert yourself. And I found following that, pursuing truth and objectivity, to be wise advice that helped keep me sane during the pandemic (I spent nearly two years at home, but I kept busy practicing meditation and studying a variety of subjects, learning a great deal about East Asian history and culture, theories of personal development, improving my diet and physical fitness, and going for walks and trying to stay grounded- and I think my life actually improved during the pandemic, while the rest of America just seemed to go crazy).

Perhaps talking to a spiritual director or counselor is in order?

 

[Paidiske]

In general I tend to think spiritual direction is a good thing, so I'd say it probably can't hurt to try.

Counselling... maybe? I guess one of the underlying questions might be: what's a dealbreaker for you with a particular church? And what I wonder is, is that threshold a little low?

What I mean is, there's a time to walk away from a church. But if we want to do that every time something happens that we don't like, we'll never be able to put down roots anywhere, because every church will have problems. So finding the sweet spot between being able to live with the failings of our brothers and sisters, and knowing when it's time to leave for healthy reasons, is a tricky art form. That could maybe be something to unpack a bit with a counsellor, if you chose to.