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Featured If we are saved by faith why do some verses of the Bible seem to state that we are not?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What about the man that may feel guilty about not being obedient, when It may turn out that he was all along (John 3:21)...

    What does Paul mean by a man "remaining as he is" in (1 Corinthians 7:20, and 1 Corinthians 7:24) in "whatever state he was called...?" Let him remain a way, or stay in it, and just not get worse...? considering the age and time, and the world, or what...?

    God Bless!
     
  2. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a one off done deal of being born again. Born again is a life long sanctification of the justified by faith in Christ, until as Paul would declare.....

    6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4)

    Born again is a work in progress, ongoing process that continues until the body of sin, is finally destroyed and put to rest. The sinless born again body, is finally realised after the body of sin, the old man (Adam one) is destroyed. Jesus said be faithful even onto death. So in this temporal life, no one can claim to have arrived at being born again, until, like Paul they had to have finished their race, whilst keeping the faith, after the body of sin is finally destroyed and the faithful after biological death is presented in their sinless state before the Lord after judgement for the works of faith done in the body. Hence as Paul states we are or should be dying daily, until the body of sin is destroyed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Or what about in (Matthew 21:28-31) as goes obedience...?

    God Bless!
     
  4. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Faith may move mountains.

    Matthew 21:17 (World English Bible) He left them, and went out of the city to Bethany, and camped there. 18 Now in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he came to it, and found nothing on it but leaves. He said to it, “Let there be no fruit from you forever!”

    Immediately the fig tree withered away. 20 When the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree immediately wither away?”

    21 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, if you have faith, and don’t doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you told this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it would be done. 22 All things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
     
  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I'd say since exercise is necessary to stay alive for the physical body ... perhaps exercise is a good idea for the spiritual body as well. You know, like prayer, fellowship, loving those around you.

    In the same sense, it is important to note that being "born again" "of the Holy Spirit" and being saved "by his blood" means that we have the same kind of life God does now. So if someone can be born again and then just "die" and no longer be born again .. then that means God can die too.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Jesus said, "This is the will of God, that you believe on Him who God has sent."
     
  7. listed

    listed are you?

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    What do you want to believe? Do you want to believe you must keep the law in order to get or maintain salvation? If so wouldn't that mean God is obligated to pay? Doesn't Romans 6:23 say - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord?

    As for your reference to Matthew 19, you're only considering that verse alone. That means taking it out of context. The context of the full account is in complete agreement with the Scripture (including the OT). The question the man asked is "What can I do...? The account reveals no one can do anything to earn salvation.
     
  8. listed

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    I must ask then what are these works and are they required?
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Luke 17: WEB

    7 But who is there among you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say, when he comes in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down at the table,’ 8 and will not rather tell him, ‘Prepare my supper, clothe yourself properly, and serve me, while I eat and drink. Afterward you shall eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded? I think not. 10 Even so you also, when you have done all the things that are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants. We have done our duty.’”
     
  10. listed

    listed are you?

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    Don't understand :(
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Proverbs 3:3 ESV
    Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart
     
  12. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    The SALVATION EVENT...versus...
    The SANCTIFICATION PROCESS:

    "sanctification"...Greek 38...hagiasmos...

    I.consecration, purification...II.the effect of consecration A.sanctification (setting aside) of heart and life

    Romans 6:19, 22 (all NASB)
    I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.
    For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness,
    resulting in further lawlessness,
    so now present your members as slaves to righteousness,resulting in sanctification....
    But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, (of salvation)
    resulting in sanctification, and
    the outcome, eternal life.

    1 Col. 1:30
    But by His doing you are IN Christ Jesus,
    who became to us wisdom from God, and
    righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

    1 Thess. 4:3...For this is the will of God, your sanctification;

    2 Thess 2:13
    But we should always give thanks to God for you,
    brethren beloved by the Lord,
    because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification
    by (God) the Holy Spirit and faith in the truth.

    PROGRESSIVE SANCTIFICATION: A PROCESS!

    POSITION versus PRACTICE...
    "How God views Man'S spirit
    VERSUS
    "Christian Living"

    I WAS SAVED from the PRISON of SIN in the PAST....simple "saving faith"...Ephesians 2:8

    1. Substitution: "in the place of"
    2. Redemption: " pay ransom, remove, and release "
    3. Reconciliation: "alienation ends"
    4. Propititation: "satisfaction with action"
    5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...nature changed
    6. Justification: "view: Just-if-I..never" SINNED by the Advocate
    7. Sanctification: 'process of being set aside for God, being more holy, following

    I AM BEING saved from the POWER of SIN in the PRESENT
    ....influence of the PERMANENTLY indwelling God theHoly Spirit, guiding "battles" against the foes.
    Sanctification (setting apart) is Progressive.
    "Good works" are guided by God the Holy Spirit to eventual "Judgement of Believer's Works."
    Faith put to WORK! ...Becoming more Christ-like by following His precepts and Spiritual guidance.
    Philippians 2:12 ...work out...Hebrews 12:1 ...run race

    NOTE: (Saving) FAITH without (spiritully guided following ) WORKS is DEAD (judged spiritually useless)...a paraphrase of James. SEE: James 2:22

    I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of SIN in the FUTURE
    ...Eternity in the NEW Heavens and NEW Earth and NEW Jerusalem, with the Tri-Une God! Revelation 21-22

    The Spiritual Gift of Grace of God + The Spirit-Led Belief of Man = Spiritual SALVATION of Man...Past / Present / Future
     
  13. listed

    listed are you?

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    No idea how this relates to your previous post I responded to. :(
     
  14. listed

    listed are you?

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    A person or thing is sanctified or not sanctified. There's no such thing as progressive sanctification.
     
  15. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    By "born again" or begotten from above, we talking about an essential event, not a process of growth, and is a birth of the Spirit which is likened to physical birth and which happens at conversion:
    • That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:6-7)
    (Note that henceforth John always refers to being born of God as being a present condition)
    And which spiritually makes one a child of God:
    • Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)
    • Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)
    • Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)
    • Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
    • For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26)
    Thus believers are said to be the born of God:
    • If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)
    • But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Galatians 4:29)
    And who love others who are also born of God:
    • Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)
    Therefore having been spiritually born they are to grow spiritually:
    • Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. (Ephesians 5:1-2)
    And as they are already begotten sons of God so they await the fully realization of this:
    • Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
    It is true that the believers are be in character and practice what they are in position and in spirit, and await (as from Heaven where they are positionally seated with Christ already: Ephesians 2:6) the final transformation of this vile body:
    • For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)
    However, while we are to seek to be as much like a resurrected believer here on earth, the growth in grace and final transformation of the resurrection is not being born again, but is a culmination of that event, which happens in conversion, by effectual faith, as heretofore described.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The works we do are wrought by God. This may shed some light:

    John 15 World English Bible (WEB)
    15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you.

    8 “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love. 11 I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be made full.

    12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn’t know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you. 16 You didn’t choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

    17 “I command these things to you, that you may love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, since I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his lord.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do to you for my name’s sake, because they don’t know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates me, hates my Father also. 24 If I hadn’t done among them the works which no one else did, they wouldn’t have had sin. But now have they seen and also hated both me and my Father. 25 But this happened so that the word may be fulfilled which was written in their law, ‘They hated me without a cause.’

    26 “When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me.27 You will also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.



    The works are wrought of God.

    A soldier never questions whether their duty and loyalty to their master is required. This is called obedience.
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Of course there is, this is why there are many rituals involving things going through a "process", for orders sake...

    God Bless!
     
  18. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    See PeaceByJesus said: by God's grace. The works are those of faith, by the Spirit, which evidence faith and justify one as being a believer, a believer of justifying faith. And such obedience, as described, is required: not as making one good enough in character to be with God but as a testifying to faith which purifies the heart, and makes one accepted in the Beloved on Christ's account. Thanks be to God.
     
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    No, you do not you must keep the law in order to get or maintain salvation, and no one can do anything to earn salvation. Instead one must believe, which itself is by God's grace. And if he believes, then there will be effects which correspond to faith in the person of the Lord Jesus, both in heart and deed, by God;s grace.

    Thus all you need to really do is believe, but which means you will act like a believer, just like if you wholly believed in a renowned health practitioner then you would do as he said. And faith in Christ is not faith in the promise of salvation abstract from who and what He is.

    The Lord Jesus Himself pointed to His works as evidence that He was of God (and God) as He claimed to be:

    If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (John 10:37)

    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14:10-11)


    And in my analogy, your health testifies to the claims and reputation of that health practitioner - and to your own discipleship. Which is what he looks for when letting people into his convention.

    Thus while we are saved by faith, we are judged by works.

    "Your credentials sir."
     
  20. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. (John 3:7-8)

    The example that Jesus gives of being born again, is a process and that process entails a life long journey that has a beginning and a end destination, hence the phrase...."you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going". This alludes to an ongoing process, that has a beginning and an ending. It therefore is a life long sanctification process by the Spirit of God and of the Spirit of God, in those who are being continually regenerated, to conform to the image of the Son.

    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

    It clearly highlights, that to be born again, is an ongoing process, where the sequence of salvation is from being called, to being justified in Christ, to then being glorified/sanctified, that they MIGHT be born again, that is, as the last Adams, where the old man (first Adam) who is the body of sin, is finally biologically put to rest. Notice the conditional statement MIGHT be.

    John, defines what and when the final destination is and he points to this sinless state as being after the faithful finishes their race and keeps the faith. As Jesus said be faithful even onto death and I will give you your crown of life.

    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. ( 1 John 3:2)

    First born applies to being born again, after the old man is put to rest. Though Jesus is the first born, yet following him are also new borns into the Kingdom of God, after the body of sin is finally put to death.

    13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:13-14)

    Notice the IF......THEN conditional statement of the continuous verb "mortify" in action, implies a path, that has a beginning and an ending.

    Dying to self, is an ongoing sanctification process, that buds into that glorified form, only after a person stays faithful even onto biological death.

    Being born again in the present tense, is to claim to have the crown of life already. Full Preterists claim this and it is ironic, that you seem to imply that we are in the present tense born again, without any recourse to the life long sanctifying works of God. So in effect you are claiming, like the Preterists that you have arrived at your final destination and that you already possess your crown of life and have been fully conformed to the Image of the glorified Son. John in 1 John 3:2 does not agree with your claim at all.

    Should I believe you or the Apostle John?

    No, no, no, he does not!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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