If we are saved by faith why do some verses of the Bible seem to state that we are not?

[mkgal1]

I appreciate how this is written:

In the parable of the watchful servants (Luke 12:35-40), God is actually presented as waiting on us—in the middle of the night! In fact, we see God as both our personal servant inside our house and the divine burglar who has to “break through the walls of [our] house.” That’s really quite extraordinary and not our usual image of God. It shows how much God—the “Hound of Heaven,” as Francis Thompson says—wants to get to us and how unrelenting is the work of grace.

Unless and until you understand the biblical concept of God’s unmerited favor, God’s unaccountable love, most of the biblical text cannot be interpreted or tied together in any positive way. It is, without doubt, the key and the code to everything transformative in the Bible. People who have not experienced the radical character of grace will always misinterpret the meanings and major direction of the Bible. The Bible will become a burden, obligation, and weapon more than a gift.

Grace cannot be understood by any ledger of merits and demerits. It cannot be held to patterns of buying, losing, earning, achieving, or manipulating, which is where, unfortunately, most of us live our lives. Grace is, quite literally, “for the taking.” It is God eternally giving away God—for nothing—except the giving itself.~https://cac.org/god-is-eternally-giving-away-god-2016-01-25/

....the flip side of that, though, is the idea (that I disagree with).....that we just recite a prayer of repentance.....asking for forgiveness....and we are "in"......and that's "faith". To me, that reminds me of this passage:

9“Do you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to •Baal, and follow other gods that you have not known? g 10 Then do you come and stand before Me in this house called by My name and say, ‘We are delivered, so we can continue doing all these detestable acts’? 11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers i in your view? Yes, I too have seen it.” ~Jeremiah 7
​

....when we love God....and absorb His love, grace, compassion, and mercy for us.....it naturally begins to spill over into how we treat others. IOW....there will be fruit of that.

 

[redleghunter]

We in the Church Age are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, therefore have a guaranteed inheritance, therefore have no requirement to obey commandments, persevere, bear fruit, etc.

A cursory glance of the apostolic epistles proves the above to be false.

Just a sample here:

1 Corinthians 9:World English Bible (WEB)

9 Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortionists, will inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God. 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are expedient. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be brought under the power of anything. 13 “Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods,” but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 Now God raised up the Lord, and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Don’t you know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

 

[mkgal1]

We in the Church Age are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, therefore have a guaranteed inheritance, therefore have no requirement to obey commandments, persevere, bear fruit, etc.

A cursory glance of the apostolic epistles proves the above to be false.

Exactly. That would mean MOST of the NT would be completely pointless as much of it is referring to "how to live by the Spirit" (like in Galatians 5 and Romans 8 and the book of James for example).

 

[Neogaia777]

Fruit... The question is: can only God Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man...?

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

Why does the Bible say we are saved by grace through faith, but also God's word says there are things we need to do?

I think it is a package deal > if you get saved by Jesus, Jesus makes you safe so you can not lose Him. Plus, Jesus succeeds in us to have us do all which God's word means He wants us to do. What He does after we get saved, then, is also guaranteed to happen.

Isaiah 55:11 guarantees how God's word will do all which God wants His word to do with us > all which God pleases, therefore all which He means, and not merely what we can now understand. So, we are not only saved unconditionally, but God's grace is unconditionally guaranteed to produce all in us and our lives, which His word means to Him Himself and how His almighty grace of love is able.

Good questions and analysis. I will offer the following:

Ezekiel 36:

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

 

[redleghunter]

Fruit... The question is: can only God Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man...?

God Bless!

The fruit can only come from the Vine.

John 15:World English Bible (WEB)

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you.

 

[mkgal1]

Fruit... The question is: can only God Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man...?

God Bless!

That's a lot of times a difficult question. I'm not sure if we should break that off into another thread? I will just quickly say that, in my opinion (right now)....I think if there is someone within a church community that is characterized by continual behavior that harms others....and they resist any gentle communication to steer them in another direction.....boundaries should be in place to protect people in their presence. Beyond that.....it's not really our place to do much more than that (they shouldn't be given positions in the church, though).

 

[redleghunter]

Saving faith is not mere intellectual assent, nor simply belief in the promise of the Christ to give eternal life to those who believe, abstract from the one who gave it, but faith in a person called the Lord Jesus, and thus salvific faith will result in changes in heart and life which correspond to the will of the one you believe, relative to the light and grace given you. This salvific is from the heart, a penitent, contrite heart, thus it can be called repentant faith. And "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." (Psalms 34:18)

Amen by God's Grace.

 

[redleghunter]

Fruit... The question is: can only God Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man...?

God Bless!

Now to address the depth of your question.

John 13: World English Bible (WEB)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[Oldmantook]

Because faith and obedience to the will of God are inseparable. No obedience = no faith.

 

[klutedavid]

James talks about "faith without works is dead" the concept of the law of liberty seems to centre around the golden rule from the written law, Jesus was merciful to you, so be merciful almost as if reflecting on that parable of the unmerciful debtor.

Hello Michael.

Before we wander to far down the path of faith and works, let's look at more of the context in this letter by James.

James 2:14-17
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Salvation is purely by grace through faith... (Ephesians 2:8).

Then we add that faith will never be an idle faith, some works should indeed follow.

This is in fact what James is saying in the verse above.

 

[Dkh587]

Because true faith requires action. We are saved by faith, but not by dead faith. We are saved by active faith.

 

[PamCAID]

Just my thoughts on James, if interested.
http://www.churchageisdifferent.com/james/

Same thing that was preached in the Gospels: the need to demonstrate one's faith.

 

[mkgal1]

Same thing that was preached in the Gospels: the need to demonstrate one's faith.

I'm confused.....because earlier you posted:

We in the Church Age are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, therefore have a guaranteed inheritance, therefore have no requirement to obey commandments, persevere, bear fruit, etc.

 

[PamCAID]

I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining myself, eh?

This quick chart might help: http://www.churchageisdifferent.com/church-chart/

Neither the Gospels nor Acts contain our gospel of 'by grace thru faith alone' because they're all before Paul was given that revelation by Jesus. Paul's epistles are the first, and only, to talk about the Holy Spirit indwelling believers at the moment of faith in Jesus.

Salvation is, obviously, available to all who believe. Security is not -- unless you're indwelt, which is just us. Maybe you'd like to just poke around on my site? Bunch of charts, articles and videos. God bless you!

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Fruit... The question is: can only God Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man...?
God Bless!

It is not "either/or but both. If men could rightly judge "John, that he was a prophet indeed," (Mark 11:32) and likewise Christ (even in dissent from the magisterium) then they should be able to judge who is a believer, and who is not, as Paul did:

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:3-10)

For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. (1 Thessalonians 3:4-5)

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:7-10)

When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2 Timothy 1:5)

Likewise believers are to judge themselves:

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Yet not all have the same discernment:

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hebrews 5:14)

However, if you had asked, "can only God assuredly infallibly Judge if it is faith, plus anything on your part... Or can man," the answer would be only God, since ensured infallibility in is nowhere promised to man or office.

 

[Deadworm]

The simplest answer to the OP's question consists of 2 overlooked simple points:
(1) In both Hebrew (amunah) and Greek (pistis) the word for "faith" also means "faithfulness." So good works are built into the very concept of faith.

(2) The rhetorical question in James 2:14 is decisive: "What good is it if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?" The implied answer is a resounding No! James proceeds to explain the real faith is only manifested through works, that is, through a demonstration of faithfulness. Of course, we are saved by grace; so our belief, trust, and works do not allow us to merit our salvation. We are saved by faith/ faithfulness through grace. For this reason Paul can insist the salvation must be worked out: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)." Why the insecurity of fear trembling? Because God must lead us through the process of working out our salvation and only He determines whether our efforts have succeeded. .

 

[The Times]

Okay so I had a thought. Throughout the Bible the Bible says that we're saved by faith. Yet in some parts of the Bible it says that we are not saved by faith alone. In John 6:39-6:40 Jesus says:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

And also in John 10:28-29:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

And also in John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.

These verses prove that we are saved by faith and that those who believe in Jesus WILL be saved. But, there are also other verses in the Bible that Jesus said that trouble me and seem to disprove that we are saved by faith like:

Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 25:31-46 (Too long to put in here)

Matthew 19:17:

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 6:15:

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 19:17 seems to say that we must keep the commandments to be saved and then he lists what commandments he's talking about in the next two verses.

Matthew 7:21 seems to say that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Which confuses many people until the will of the Father is explained in John 6:39-40. The will of the father is that everyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life and never be lost. Jesus will not lose a single one of these people so the "Many" people who are not saved in Matthew 7:21 are those who don't believe in Jesus right?


Matthew 6:15 seems to add the additional requirement of forgiving others to salvation. Making Jesus's words in John 6:39-40 basically a lie because Jesus said that all believers would be saved and would be eternally secure.

Matthew 25:31-46 seems to say that works are required for salvation. Yet this is contrary to Pauls words in Ephesians 2:9 when he says "Not by works lest any man should boast". Also in James 2:20 James says "Faith without works is dead" which seems to back up Jesus's words in Matthew 25:31-46. That a true faith would have works and therefore those who are not saved in those verses did not have a true faith. So that could be the answer to my problem on these verses but, what about the others?

Because faith according to the biblical definition is inclusive of the works of faith of God through those justified by faith in Christ.

Works of faith of God is the sanctiying fire, that is the living stone proof of the justified faith.

Salvation according to John 3:5 is inclusive of justification and sanctification.

In conclusion, according to the Bible there is no salvation for justification, without the sanctification works of God. We are like a plant/vessel and when the inputs to the plant is God, then if the plant is faithful and functions as desired, then the outputs are the sanctifying fruits of the Spirit of God, which testify they are of God. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees to atleast believe the works, that they are of God. Therefore there is no contradiction of the biblical definition of faith.

 

[redleghunter]

Neither the Gospels nor Acts contain our gospel of 'by grace thru faith alone' because they're all before Paul was given that revelation by Jesus. Paul's epistles are the first, and only, to talk about the Holy Spirit indwelling believers at the moment of faith in Jesus.

Not accurate. See:
Acts 2
Acts 3
Acts 10
and Acts 15.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining myself, eh?

This quick chart might help: http://www.churchageisdifferent.com/church-chart/

Neither the Gospels nor Acts contain our gospel of 'by grace thru faith alone' because they're all before Paul was given that revelation by Jesus. Paul's epistles are the first, and only, to talk about the Holy Spirit indwelling believers at the moment of faith in Jesus.

Salvation is, obviously, available to all who believe. Security is not -- unless you're indwelt, which is just us. Maybe you'd like to just poke around on my site? Bunch of charts, articles and videos. God bless you!
View attachment 218884

Which is heretical hyper-dispensationalism, which i have reproved before and am not going to get into here again now.