If we are saved by faith why do some verses of the Bible seem to state that we are not?

[Bible Highlighter]

Then it's a matter of trust. As in do we trust Christ to fulfill the will of the Father. For me that's pretty easy to determine.

Trust (faith) is more than just a belief alone.
Trust (faith) involves taking action, too (See James 2:18, Matthew 14:25-31).

Furthermore, we have to believe every word of God in the Bible, as well (even when we may not like it). The word "should" means exactly that. You know that the word "should" suggests a possibility and not a guarantee (in John 6). So it is a matter of faith if you accept that particular word within the Bible or not.

 

[redleghunter]

In John 17:12, Jesus says, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Yes. Judas was chosen for his task. Not for eternal life. One of those sovereign designs of God. And notice Jesus when praying to the Father said he kept those the Father gave Him. Obviously Judas was not one.

 

[redleghunter]

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

As sheep is the operative word.

 

[redleghunter]

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Makes complete sense. The green marble did not believe. Before the Good Shepherd discourse Jesus makes it clear His detractors did not believe in Him. He makes this stark contrast throughout John 10.

My point was we either believe in the Promises of God and trust Christ to keep His promises and for Him to do the will of the Father. As I said earlier, no issues here. I trust Him and He demonstrated by giving His own life that He did the will of the Father and keeps His promises.

Salvation is not about us. It's all about God.

 

[redleghunter]

Trust (faith) is more than just a belief alone.
Trust (faith) involves taking action, too (See James 2:18, Matthew 14:25-31).

This is true. Abraham believed God and he then packed up camp and started walking towards the promised land.

 

[redleghunter]

The word "should" means exactly that. You know that the word "should" suggests a possibility and not a guarantee (in John 6). So it is a matter of faith if you accept that particular word within the Bible or not.

I think you look too much into the modern English hu-man aspect of "should." One only needs to observe Who is saying this. However, your definition heavily implies Christ can fail doing the will of the Father. Again I have a lot more confidence the King of kings is 100% faithful to the will of the Father. As seen here unequivocally :

John 10: NKJV

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Kind of tightens the shot group of the "should" in John 6.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes. Judas was chosen for his task. Not for eternal life. One of those sovereign designs of God. And notice Jesus when praying to the Father said he kept those the Father gave Him. Obviously Judas was not one.

Your not getting it. The Father gave Judas to Jesus. Jesus was the One who was to be the keeper of his disciples. All Jesus kept except one he lost (Which was Judas). You cannot lose something you never were given. If I gave you a book for you to borrow, you could then have the capacity to lose it. But if I never gave you my book, you could never lose it because it was never in your possession to lose it. That is why what you believe here does not match up with the plain words of Scripture in our language.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As sheep is the operative word.

A sheep is somebody who is saved in light of wolves that Judas would be among. Jesus says I send you as sheep among wolves. In Matthew 25:31-46, we see that there are sheeps and there are goats. The goats did not help (love) the poor or the unfortunate in this life and they were cast into everlasting fire. Yet, the sheep did help (love) the poor and the unfortunate and were told "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." In John 10:27, Jesus says that his sheep FOLLOW Him. So yes, the sheep are operative and or in obedience to their shepherd.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Makes complete sense. The green marble did not believe. Before the Good Shepherd discourse Jesus makes it clear His detractors did not believe in Him. He makes this stark contrast throughout John 10.

No. You are ignoring verse 27 that says that Jesus's sheep follow Him. Judas followed Jesus until one day he decided to no longer follow Jesus and he stole from the ministry money.

Matthew 26:25 says Judas betrays Jesus. You cannot betray somebody if you were never loyal to them.

My point was we either believe in the Promises of God and trust Christ to keep His promises and for Him to do the will of the Father. As I said earlier, no issues here. I trust Him and He demonstrated by giving His own life that He did the will of the Father and keeps His promises.

No. Faith is described as more than a belief. James makes this fact very clear. James says faith without works is dead. Jesus says to Peter who failed to walk on water (i.e. to do a miraculous work) that he had little faith. Also, Hebrews 11 (the heroes of faith chapter) shows us how the men of God had faith that always led to actions of some kind. So one cannot separate works from faith.

Salvation is not about us. It's all about God.

Then life is meaningless. Why are we here? Is God just messing with us? No matter what we do, we will either be saved or condemned by God's choice. That does not sound like the God of the Bible. For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son. Why die for the whole world if God is going to just randomly save a select few of His own choice alone? It makes no sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is true. Abraham believed God and he then packed up camp and started walking towards the promised land.

However, do believe that Abraham would be saved if he refused to do all of what GOD said, though? Imagine if he refused to go to the pack up and move? What if he refused to sacrifice his son?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you look too much into the modern English hu-man aspect of "should."

If we cannot trust words in the English within our Bible, then we might as well re-write the Bible to fit our own personal beliefs. One either believes what the Bible says at face value or they believe it says something they want it to say (beyond what the words say).

One only needs to observe Who is saying this. However, your definition heavily implies Christ can fail doing the will of the Father. Again I have a lot more confidence the King of kings is 100% faithful to the will of the Father. As seen here unequivocally :

The King is 100% faithful to his sheep. But these sheep are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus according to John 10:27. If they are not following Jesus, then they are not His sheep.

John 10: NKJV

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Kind of tightens the shot group of the "should" in John 6.

I highlighted verse 27 for you in your quote. Jesus says, His sheep FOLLOW(s) Him. This lines up with the word "should" in John 6. Jesus should lose none, but not everyone will remain faithful and continue to follow Jesus after they accept Him as their Savior. We see in the Parable of the Sower that some received the seed of the Word of God into their hearts (i.e. Jesus and the gospel) but they fell away due to persecution and or the cares of this life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And an infant learning to walk, does not get mistreated by his parents for not being able to or falling down, but they are there to love and encourage, and help you, but let it happen naturally as well... But, why do we think God is a worse parent than this...?

We all stumble many times, if we do not or are seeming not to, then I think we need to check and and see if pride is an issue, if not, i think your OK...

But, most of us find ourselves stumbling sometimes, and it's good to know of our God that he is a parent, like or better, than this...

But in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father did not chase after the son and force him back home to do the right thing. When the prodigal son returned back home to his father and was willing to repent (ask forgiveness) for his riotous sinful living, the father said two times that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again." This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. The son was dead spiritually when he was living his sinful life away from his father and he only became alive again spiritually when he returned back home and was willing to repent before all of Heaven and his father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are on point.

Thank you;
And may God bless you brother.

 

[redleghunter]

Your not getting it. The Father gave Judas to Jesus. Jesus was the One who was to be the keeper of his disciples. All Jesus kept except one he lost (Which was Judas). You cannot lose something you never were given. If I gave you a book for you to borrow, you could then have the capacity to lose it. But if I never gave you my book, you could never lose it because it was never in your possession to lose it. That is why what you believe here does not match up with the plain words of Scripture in our language.

Judas was to fulfill the Scriptures. That is all we are left with. To speculate further would imply we could understand the will of YHWH fully. Isaiah 55:8-9 comes to mind.

 

[redleghunter]

However, do believe that Abraham would be saved if he refused to do all of what GOD said, though? Imagine if he refused to go to the pack up and move? What if he refused to sacrifice his son?

That's the point bro. I think you agree faith surely implies faithfulness. Faith is not comatose.

Abraham did make some mistakes which did not please God (listening to Sarah on Hagar; not trusting God by lying to the King of Egypt etc.). Yet God did not give up on Him.

 

[redleghunter]

If we cannot trust words in the English within our Bible, then we might as well re-write the Bible to fit our own personal beliefs. One either believes what the Bible says at face value or they believe it says something they want it to say (beyond what the words say).



The King is 100% faithful to his sheep. But these sheep are the type of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus according to John 10:27. If they are not following Jesus, then they are not His sheep.


I highlighted verse 27 for you in your quote. Jesus says, His sheep FOLLOW(s) Him. This lines up with the word "should" in John 6. Jesus should lose none, but not everyone will remain faithful and continue to follow Jesus after they accept Him as their Savior. We see in the Parable of the Sower that some received the seed of the Word of God into their hearts (i.e. Jesus and the gospel) but they fell away due to persecution and or the cares of this life.

Good post. The sheep do hear His voice and follow Him. That is surely shown in Romans 8 where we either follow the flesh or walk in the Spirit.

My overarching point is does one trust Christ keeps His promises? I believe that is the crux of how one responds to the Gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

But in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father did not chase after the son and force him back home to do the right thing. When the prodigal son returned back home to his father and was willing to repent (ask forgiveness) for his riotous sinful living, the father said two times that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again." This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. The son was dead spiritually when he was living his sinful life away from his father and he only became alive again spiritually when he returned back home and was willing to repent before all of Heaven and his father.

A valid point. A couple of things to consider.

The gracious father ran out to meet the son.

The father lavished the son with the best garments and food. He was accepted back on the father's terms and not the low terms the son intended to offer the father. Remember the son wanted to come back but as a hired servant. Which shows a repentant heart. Yet the grace the father shows goes beyond the wildest dreams of the son. Thus showing the unmerited Grace God shows us danmned destitute sinners who come to Him with a sorrowful repentant heart with nothing to offer Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A valid point. A couple of things to consider.

The gracious father ran out to meet the son.

The father lavished the son with the best garments and food. He was accepted back on the father's terms and not the low terms the son intended to offer the father. Remember the son wanted to come back but as a hired servant. Which shows a repentant heart. Yet the grace the father shows goes beyond the wildest dreams of the son. Thus showing the unmerited Grace God shows us danmned destitute sinners who come to Him with a sorrowful repentant heart with nothing to offer Him.

Let’s just cut to the chase. Do you believe that a saint can abide in serious unrepentant sin and die and still be saved?