If we are saved by faith why do some verses of the Bible seem to state that we are not?

[PeaceByJesus]

Faith is not what saves us, but GRACE. They are two different things. Take a look at the wonderful, yet short book of James and it is clearly shown.
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, 'Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled'; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." - James 2:14-18
Yeshua (Jesus) preached throughout his teachings that we ought to perform and do good works. He said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” - Matthew 5:16
But he also said, "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 6:1
This is not a contradiction here. Yeshua clearly commanded that we ought to go out of our way to do good works at any time we see a chance. However, he told us that when we do them, that we should do them without seeking an audience or the validation of others. That we should not flock to Facebook and say, "Man I feel great! Just fed 30 homeless people today! Aren't I the greatest? What have YOU done for your community today?" You should want the feeling you get in your heart after doing your good work to be your reward, not the applauding of men. There is nothing wrong with a community coming together for the betterment of the people as whole, but we should be able to discern between the right and wrong times to have an audience when doing good works. If you see a homeless man on the street, FEED HIM if you can. Even a dollar will buy a bundle of bananas at your local Wal-Mart or Meijer. But when you do it, always remember why you are doing it. Who cares if somebody sees you doing it? "Well I want to show other people in the hopes of inspiring them though. It's for a good cause! A good reason!" No no no. If you want to get other people to do good in the world, give them the gospel of the Son of God and his teachings. Give them over to God. You give them that and they will be all about doing good. They need a reason to care about others in such a Godless world as this. And always pray for them as our Lord commanded us. Pray for their renewal unto life. Pray that they wake up. My friend, we are commanded to do good works. We are commanded to abstain from evil. One man Yeshua healed is an example that faith alone does not save.
“Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” - John 5:14
And again Yeshua said this to the adulteress woman.
"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and SIN NO MORE." - John 8:11
People argue that it is impossible to not sin because it is in our very nature to do so. Well that is a terrible excuse to not try. God knows we aren't perfect friend. That is why it is written, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” - Romans 3:23
But this is why we should try all the more to fight against it. Why would the Bible tell us to "put on the full armor of God" if there were no battle to fight? On the contrary, we are taught that we are actually in a CONSTANT battle for our very souls. Faith is important, yes. There is no arguing that. But it is where you place your faith that counts and what you do with it to prove it. Again, look at what James wrote. "show me thy faith without thy works and I will show you MY faith BY my works." Faith and works are intended to go hand in hand. The two most compelling and obvious verses I can think of to support my claim are the following:
“He that SAITH he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” - 1st John 2:6
“This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.” - Matthew 15:8
Basically the message here in black and white is this: It's not enough to talk the talk and honor the Lord with your lips. But you must also take up your cross and WALK THE WALK, even as Christ walked. May God bless you my friend and all that are digitally roaming this forum.

See post on p. 1 by God's grace: If we are saved by faith why do some verses of the Bible seem to state that we are not?

 

[The Times]

With respect to Romans 6:6

Only IF the Spirit of Christ dwells in you, then the "body of sin" and the "old man" is being put to death. It is a conditional verb in continuous action of the IF.....THEN.....ELSE.....

Hence it has nothing to do with the Old Covenant (Torah). I will prove my case......

First we need to establish that the primary biblical usage of “old man” comes from two words. Old (Gr. Palaios) means old, ancient, well worn. Man (Gr. Anthrōpos) is simply a human being, either male or female.

Note the pronoun “our” which identifies the old man Paul is referring to. Next he uses the conjunction “that” (in order that, so that) the body of sin might be destroyed. Which body? The body Paul just referred to, the old man.

The body of sin is referring to the body of the old man in question, right?

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

We have a direct contrasting comparison being made between the first Adam who is the Old (Gr. Palaios) means old, ancient, well worn, Man (Gr. Anthrōpos) is simply a human being, versus the last or New Adam that is Heavenly, who is not made by human hands.

So let us get back to the context in proper........

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Let us not assume that putting away the old man is a figure of speech, because Next he uses the conjunction “that” (in order that, so that) the body of sin might be destroyed. So destroyed is not a IF....THEN....or ELSE, because once it is destroyed, there is no going back, hence the question of how it will be destroyed is made simple by Paul, that is the two forms cannot exist side by side. Paul explains.....speaking of the resurrection body....

“How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

The old man in question has to be destroyed, meaning it has to die, in order for the new man form to manifest, which is alluded to by Paul as something else other than what was the old man, who is Old (Gr. Palaios) Man (Gr. Anthrōpos). It supports what the church in Jerusalem who wrote Hebrews 9 believed, that is.....it is a requirement under the blood covenant, that the Testator must biologically die, in order for the promise of eternal life hoped for and not yet seen to take effect.

In conclusion, when we stick with the correct context, it fits like a glove as follows....

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

The conditional verb in continuous action, is a projection of what is hoped for and not yet seen, meaning realised. It therefore only is realised when the Old Man Adam, who is the body of sin, is finally put to rest, so that the something else can permanently manifest in its place. There is no option to turn back from this point onwards, for those who cross the vail, by biologically dying, hence the IF.....THEN

...ELSE.....no longer is applicable. For the time being, the body of death/sin/Adam is being in the continuous action of the verb being, put to death, until it is fully destroyed, then something else will take its place and Hebrews 9 is quite clear, that all men are destined to die once, then judgment for the works of faith done in the earthly body. It becomes clear, that so long we are consciously existing in the old man, the body of sin and are being tempted on a daily basis, then our fight of faith or race of faith, what ever you want to call it, has not yet been completed until we biologically die.

That is why Paul would say......

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

The NOW there is in store for me the crown of life as Paul is concerned is when his old man that he contended with on a daily basis, whilst staying in Christ, is now being biologically killed, hence his expectation of receiving what he had hoped for, is only realised after this momentous transition. He also comforts those with him, by reminding them that their day and hour will also come in turn. This is where Jesus says, be faithful even onto death and I will give you a crown of life.

So the IF.....THEN.....ELSE.....at this point is no longer applicable to Paul and this old man is now ready to be permanently destroyed/dissolved, so that the something else that is given in store for Paul will be received, that is his eternal inheritance that takes effect only when the Testator/Witness biologically dies. Paul after he is put to death is expecting to receive what he hoped to receive, this is a no brainer.

Born again has to be ratified at judgment. The eastern mind would say to a person who is 40 years and 1 day, as being 41 years, because he has entered 41, even though he has not time yet completed 365 days, according to the western mindset to declare him 41. Yet the eastern mindset already declare him as 41, even though he has not yet completed the entire days, which would then ratify that he has completed 41 years, and now entering 42.

The concept of the half glass full, half glass empty is a concept, that is of two opposing views from the east to the west. So if the eastern culture of context say he is born again, it merely just implies that the person has entered the born again stage, the beginning, yet the stage is not yet completed or ratified until the person dies. In any way, the western mind looks for a one day event to call that person 41, yet the eastern mind set calls that person 41, until he finally completes 41 after 365 days. So the open declaration of being born again, is misunderstood contextually by your interpretative judgment on the eastern culturally drived text. The born again eastern context therefore has a beginning and an ending, where the servant enters the stage and then across a lifetime, from that point onwards, they complete it by arriving at the final destination, where the born again status is now ratified, with no conditional ifs or buts.

 

[The Times]

For what cannot be read at length...here is my explanation to why the eastern mindset has born again as a life long process and the western mindset as a one off event.

Born again has to be ratified at judgment. The eastern mind would say to a person who is 40 years and 1 day, as being 41 years, because he has entered 41, even though he has not yet completed 365 days, according to the western mindset to declare him 41. Yet the eastern mindset already declare him as 41, even though he has not yet completed the entire days, which would then ratify that he has completed 41 years, and now entering 42.

The concept of the half glass full, half glass empty is a concept, that is of two opposing views from the east to the west. So if the eastern culture of context say he is born again, it merely just implies that the person has entered the born again stage, the beginning, yet the stage is not yet completed or ratified until the person dies. In any way, the western mind looks for a one day event to call that person 41, yet the eastern mind set calls that person 41, until he finally completes 41 after 365 days. So the open declaration of being born again, is misunderstood contextually by your interpretative judgment on the eastern culturally drived text. The born again eastern context therefore has a beginning and an ending, where the servant enters the stage and then across a lifetime, from that point onwards, they complete it by arriving at the final destination, where the born again status is now ratified, with no conditional ifs or buts.

 

[The Times]

The two are not opposed. John states that believers are presently the sons of God, "which were born," being "born of God" - "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" - (1 John 5:1) but that indeed does not mean perseverance in faith is not required, as Hebrews especially exhorts and warns. And which results in the resurrection:

Now I understand what the confusion is friend.....

Are presently within the eastern mindset, means the person has entered the born again status, much like a person aged 40 years and 1 day has entered 41, even though to a western mindset, they would think that unless he completes the 365, only then is he is 41, at completion of the 365 days, as a one day event. The confusion is that the eastern culturally derived text means that the person has the born again title, but the title has not yet been complete in order to be ratified.

If you knew this, then you would disagree with the author of the text, because he would be calling a person 41 years old, when you in contrast say that he is 40 years old. Here lies the difference in the context of culture, in how things are measured in relation.

The western mindset one day born again event, is not what the author is alluding to.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Sure, he is just proclaiming the entering of the stage of being born again, as day one, yet what we will be, alludes to an end completion of that title, when Christ appears and the servant would now have being ratified as being born again as a new last Adam creation in the resurrection to come. This on,y happens after the shedding of blood, when the servant biologically dies and is judged for the work of faith done in the body.

John obviously is looking at this title, with a beginning and an ending. It would be like the analogy I had given about a person being 41 years, even though he is 40 years and 1 day. It is just not feasible to force a one time event into what John is describing. Hence it is a process from a glass 1% full proceeding to a glass 100% full.

But which is not referred to as the new birth, despite your insistence on making it so.

New birth beginning from day one, leading to when Christ appears on the day of judgment. It has a beginning and an ending. It is not a one-off event as if you crossed a milestone.

is stated to be a present reality, which is no opposed to the need for final perseverance if faith, and of the reesurrection, despite your false dichotomies.

Present reality is that John considered the very beginning of the sanctifying works of God but not the final hour, because it is a process in every individual's life.

The same as the giving of other crowns to those who already are accepted in the Beloved and seated with Him in Heaven, and died that way. In grace, God rewards souls for their faith (Hebrews 10:35) in recognition of it via its works, for which He alone is worthy of credit for.

This is why Preterists confuse the context of culture by imposing a western mindset in their eschatological exegesis by making the beginning of things, as if they are already completed and ratified. We are considered seated with him, because of the protracted course that leads to eventually being reunited with the Lord, after the old man puts on the new man on the day of judgement.

Underline Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, (James 1:18) which is present reality, and simply is not opposed to the resurrection.

Present beginning reality, but not the completed ending reality. There is a beginning and an ending.

Why you see these as mutually exclusive is beyond me. I just got off a forum thread with another Orthodox who also continually engaged in false either/or dichotomies.

Because the dichotomies exist between the eastern and western context of culture. You would not call a person who is 40 years and 1 day as 41, because he has not reached the 365 days milestone, only at that particular day, will you say he is 41. The eastern mindset says that he has entered 41 as the beginning and will complete it 365 days later. So there is the two dichotomies of cultures my friend and since you impose a western mindset on an eastern derived text, then you see a one off event, yet me and John see a lifetime event that has a beginning and a completed ending.

 

[Ron Gurley]

A truly born again from above per John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 is permanently spiritually changed. This salvation EVENT cannot be reversed. The sanctification PROCESS continues with the permanent indwelling God the Holy Spirit guiding the believer into the will of God.

A Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION in the Body of Christ is NOT JUDGED.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (mortal Body/Soul combo) once
and after this comes judgment,(of immortal SPIRIT)

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 (all NASB)...“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

Believers: Only their spiritual "works" are judged...IN or OUT of the will of God.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)
10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY,
whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

UN-Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION is JUDGED, and their unforgiven sins will be seen and JUDGED.
They will be justly SENTENCED....at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20).

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q: So you contend that you can BELIEVE in Christ to Salvation WITHOUT 'following Christ'?
A: No. BELIEVE/FAITH unto salvation (John 3)...THEN...FOLLOW unto sanctification (Matthew 16 / Mark 8)

Q: But acceptance or rejection is not a 'form of work'?
A: They are spiritual DECISIONS in response to God's spiritual drawing/calling.

Q: In your own quote, it states, 'open the door'. Opening a door isn't an 'act'? (METAPHOR!)
A: No. It is spiritual DECISION in response to God's spiritual drawing/calling/knocking.

Q: 'to serve' isn't to WORK?
A: Yes....BUT only AFTER the salvation EVENT. SERVE + FOLLOW + OBEY are some parts of the sanctification PROCESS.

Q: NO SUCH THING as a 'salvation EVENT'
A: Here are few examples...I think that I used these before as Biblical support of the DOCTRINE??

John 5:24 (all NASB)...“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

1 John 3:14..We (believers) know that we "have passed" out of death into life..(NOW!)

Ephesians 2:5,8
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you "have been" saved),
...For by (unearned, undeserved) Grace you "have been" saved through (spirit-led FAITH / (BELIEF);..(NOW!)

Matthew 27:42...“He saved others;...

Mark 15:31...“He saved others;

Luke 7:50...And He said to the woman (CAUGHT IN SIN), “Your faith "has" saved you; go in peace.”

Acts 2:47...And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Acts 15:11...But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus,

Romans 8:24
For in hope we "have been" saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

"WILL BE/SHALL BE" in the Greek does not indicate English future tense.

"WILL BE/SHALL BE" meaning: "is certain to result in"


will be...Greek 1510...eimi...to exist, to happen, to be present (NOW!)

Q: Christ's (God the Son) words clearly state He was SENT by God (the Father)
A: Jesus was Divine...Deity poured out into prefect Man without loss or change in Deity. Phil. 4

COME DOWN and SENT DOWN = DEITY / DIVINITY

John 5:23
so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who SENT Him.

John 10:36
do you say of Him,
whom the Father sanctified and SENT into the world,
‘You are blaspheming,’
because I said,
‘I am the Son of God’?

John 6:38
For I have COME DOWN from heaven,
not to do My own will, but the will of Him who SENT Me.(God the Father is higher in spiritual RANK)

John 6:33
For the bread of God is that which COMES DOWN out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

John 6:35
Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:48
I am the bread of life.

John 6:51
I am the living bread that CAME DOWN out of heaven; (DEITY!)
if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;
and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Hebrews 4:15...For we do not have a high priest (MAN!) who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Q: We are to 'work out our SALVATION' in fear and trembling
A We are to 'work out our "SANCTIFICATION " in REVERENTIAL AWE...FOLLOW the guide of God the Holy Spirit.

Q: You cannot SHOW you believe without DOING something
A: Wrong. Spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF is a spiritual GIFT from God, John 3 + Ephesians 2...
ACCEPT or REJECT is not "work"...a spiritual DECISION from "free will".

IN RE"Justification"

justification...Greek 1347...dikaiosis...
I.the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
II.abjuring to be righteous

Just-if-I-never sinned!...a legal defense

Romans 4:25
He who was delivered over because of our transgressions,
and was raised because of our justification.

Romans 5:16
The GIFT is not like that which came through the one who sinned;
for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression (A&E?) resulting in condemnation,
but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,
even so through one act of righteousness (sacrifice?)
there resulted justification of life to all men.

Q1: Saved from what?
A1: eternal spiritual separation from God in the "lake of fire"

Q2: Saved for what? in this lifetime?
A2: Sanctification: guided by the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit into the will of God..."good works".

Q3: Saved for what ultimately,
A3: eternal spiritual presence with the TRI-UNE GOD at death of Body/Soul in the heavenly realms.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Again, the title of being born again is ratified, after the body of sin, the old man is finally put to rest. So long as we are contending with the body of sin on a daily basis, and are dying daily, this is a process until the transition happens, where the IF....THEN....ELSE condition no longer applies. For all men are destined to die once then judgment.

Roman 6:6 will explain it.

Where it is said that the resurrection is the new birth?
Once again,
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,"
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"
"Which were born,"
"begotten of him," "is born of him,"
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus,"
born "after the Spirit' versus "born after the flesh"
is stated to be a present reality, which is not opposed to the need for final perseverance if faith, and of the resurrection, despite your false dichotomies.

I am certainly not saying once you are born again in regeneration then that it is, as if that means one is already glorified and conformed to Christ, but that this not the new birth, and which is an event, not a process, though not inseparable from it.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Now I understand what the confusion is friend.....

Are presently within the eastern mindset, means the person has entered the born again status, much like a person aged 40 years and 1 day has entered 41, even though to a western mindset, they would think that unless he completes the 365, only then is he is 41, at completion of the 365 days, as a one day event. The confusion is that the eastern culturally derived text means that the person has the born again title, but the title has not yet been complete in order to be ratified.

If you knew this, then you would disagree with the author of the text, because he would be calling a person 41 years old, when you in contrast say that he is 40 years old. Here lies the difference in the context of culture, in how things are measured in relation.

The western mindset one day born again event, is not what the author is alluding to....
Because the dichotomies exist between the eastern and western context of culture. You would not call a person who is 40 years and 1 day as 41, because he has not reached the 365 days milestone, only at that particular day, will you say he is 41. The eastern mindset says that he has entered 41 as the beginning and will complete it 365 days later. So there is the two dichotomies of cultures my friend and since you impose a western mindset on an eastern derived text, then you see a one off event, yet me and John see a lifetime event that has a beginning and a completed ending.

Then the problem is with the Eastern way of reasoning, not that it is wrong to say one has entered entered his 41st year, which is not opposed to Western thinking, but what is wrong reasoning is making that to mean one is 41 years old old at aged 40 years and 1 day, which is not true any more than cheese is! Likewise it is correct that one has been born of God as shown, but it is also correct that he has entered into that status, and looks for a culmination.

What your laborious prolixity cannot overcome is that born again is described as an event, something that happened, in which the soul passed from "death unto life," "Which were born," "begotten of him," "born of Him," "of incorruptible, by the word of God," "with the word of truth," and went from being "born after the flesh" to born "after the Spirit," from being children of wrath to becoming sons of God, and there is nothing contextually contrary to this event and status.

Which is simply not opposed to its outworking in life, and consummation in the resurrection, both of which we uphold, despite your unwarranted, false dichotomy idea that i am a Preterist.

I see little point in further exchange if you cannot accept this.

 

[fhansen]

Okay so I had a thought. Throughout the Bible the Bible says that we're saved by faith. Yet in some parts of the Bible it says that we are not saved by faith alone. In John 6:39-6:40 Jesus says:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

And also in John 10:28-29:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

And also in John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.

These verses prove that we are saved by faith and that those who believe in Jesus WILL be saved. But, there are also other verses in the Bible that Jesus said that trouble me and seem to disprove that we are saved by faith like:

Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 25:31-46 (Too long to put in here)

Matthew 19:17:

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 6:15:

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 19:17 seems to say that we must keep the commandments to be saved and then he lists what commandments he's talking about in the next two verses.

Matthew 7:21 seems to say that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Which confuses many people until the will of the Father is explained in John 6:39-40. The will of the father is that everyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life and never be lost. Jesus will not lose a single one of these people so the "Many" people who are not saved in Matthew 7:21 are those who don't believe in Jesus right?


Matthew 6:15 seems to add the additional requirement of forgiving others to salvation. Making Jesus's words in John 6:39-40 basically a lie because Jesus said that all believers would be saved and would be eternally secure.

Matthew 25:31-46 seems to say that works are required for salvation. Yet this is contrary to Pauls words in Ephesians 2:9 when he says "Not by works lest any man should boast". Also in James 2:20 James says "Faith without works is dead" which seems to back up Jesus's words in Matthew 25:31-46. That a true faith would have works and therefore those who are not saved in those verses did not have a true faith. So that could be the answer to my problem on these verses but, what about the others?

Sheez, it's quite simple. God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life. And while He's infinitely trustworthy and true, we're the wildcard in it all; we must remain faithful, cooperating with and following His will. We can have a strong level of confidence and assurance based on His love and our response to it including the changes in us and fruit in our lives, but only He knows who will persevere to the end. In light of human weakness and limitations humility is called for in this.

In the end man remains a morally accountable being; faith does not relieve us from the obligation to be righteous, rather, it supports or upholds it.

 

[com7fy8]

Ezekiel 36:

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

This in Ezekiel 36, first quoted by Redleg Hunter.

This is included in what grace does. Grace saves us, yes, then finishes the job >

"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Philippians 1:6)

 

[Yarddog]

Okay so I had a thought. Throughout the Bible the Bible says that we're saved by faith. Yet in some parts of the Bible it says that we are not saved by faith alone. In John 6:39-6:40 Jesus says:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

And also in John 10:28-29:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

And also in John 3:16:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.

These verses prove that we are saved by faith and that those who believe in Jesus WILL be saved. But, there are also other verses in the Bible that Jesus said that trouble me and seem to disprove that we are saved by faith like:

Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 25:31-46 (Too long to put in here)

Matthew 19:17:

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 6:15:

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 19:17 seems to say that we must keep the commandments to be saved and then he lists what commandments he's talking about in the next two verses.

Matthew 7:21 seems to say that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Which confuses many people until the will of the Father is explained in John 6:39-40. The will of the father is that everyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life and never be lost. Jesus will not lose a single one of these people so the "Many" people who are not saved in Matthew 7:21 are those who don't believe in Jesus right?


Matthew 6:15 seems to add the additional requirement of forgiving others to salvation. Making Jesus's words in John 6:39-40 basically a lie because Jesus said that all believers would be saved and would be eternally secure.

Matthew 25:31-46 seems to say that works are required for salvation. Yet this is contrary to Pauls words in Ephesians 2:9 when he says "Not by works lest any man should boast". Also in James 2:20 James says "Faith without works is dead" which seems to back up Jesus's words in Matthew 25:31-46. That a true faith would have works and therefore those who are not saved in those verses did not have a true faith. So that could be the answer to my problem on these verses but, what about the others?

I think the question is "what is faith"? Then to answer that one should "all" of the verses you provide and any others dealing with faith and conform one's definition to those and not just one verse.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Grace through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF saves:...The Salvation EVENT!
John 3 explained in Ephesians 2

THEN:

The permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit finishes ....The Sanctification PROCESS...
FOLLOWING-OBEYING-TRUSTING-GOOD WORKS-etc.

BELIEVE:
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

THEN:

FOLLOW:
Matthew 16: 24-27;
Luke 14:25-33

 

[Neogaia777]

That his past unrighteous works and behavior were in the will of God all along, if he is sovereign, and Paul marveled at and in this... Cause it applied to his now and future also, but, what is the light many do not want to walk in...? I wonder if the light could be constant awareness of never being alone or having an audience "all the time", or not...?

You might get the urge to start explaining yourself and talking to them when you know you have fallen short, but, you get used to never being alone, and you have an audience, and I wonder if that is the light in any way...?

God Bless!

Wait till you have to live with an audience...

 

[Neogaia777]

I think the question is "what is faith"? Then to answer that one should "all" of the verses you provide and any others dealing with faith and conform one's definition to those and not just one verse.

There are many descriptions of faith in Hebrews, and Paul said he could go on and on...

 

[Oldmantook]

That his past unrighteous works and behavior were in the will of God all along, if he is sovereign, and Paul marveled at and in this... Cause it applied to his now and future also, but, what is the light many do not want to walk in...? I wonder if the light could be constant awareness of never being alone or having an audience "all the time", or not...?

You might get the urge to start explaining yourself and talking to them when you know you have fallen short, but, you get used to never being alone, and you have an audience, and I wonder if that is the light in any way...?

God Bless!

If you are asking what is the light? Jesus said this in John 8:12 "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
To follow Jesus is to follow the light. To not follow Jesus because of disobedience is to walk in darkness.

 

[Neogaia777]

If you are asking what is the light? Jesus said this in John 8:12 "Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
To follow Jesus is to follow the light. To not follow Jesus because of disobedience is to walk in darkness.

And to be in Jesus presence, means you have and audience sometimes...

You have to adopt a new "free" attitude and outlook, and not, not care, but you know what I mean... It can bud a more genuine and true person sometimes... Afraid to walk in it...

 

[redleghunter]

There is no such claim in scripture. In fact Jesus says, if a believer does not keep the faith unto death, then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

So how could being born again be a one time event in this respect?

What is evident from the Gospel accounts is Jesus preached using direct metaphors and parables. In John 3, Jesus used the example of birth to communicate to Nicodemus spiritual quickening. Nicodemus understood the metaphor but thought of it physically. Jesus corrects him of course.

The birthing of any creature is a one time event. One moment they are in the womb the next they are out and breathing the open air on their own. From there they continue their development under their parents and then some day become adults on their own. It's a wonderful depiction Christ gives us. St Peter elaborates:

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice Peter speaks to those who are already ekklesia. The past tense is used. Begotten again. A start point. They are told they have this inheritance reserved in Heaven and they are kept by the Power of God.

Then in the later verses Peter speaks of keeping oneself from sin and to endure the sufferings which come with being ekklesia.

The beginning of our service to Christ is the birthing or born again.

It is a life long process, until the body of sin is permanently destroyed. It has a conditional IF.....THEN....ELSE statement attached to it in context.

Once the body of sin is destroyed, there is no turning back and the IF....THEN...ELSE no longer applies, because the Testator has biologically died.

The above is imprecise. St Paul speaks much of our "inner man" which is the regenerated soul. Yes this conflicts with the flesh but the flesh is not the nature God quickens but our souls. We are spiritually dead before He quickens us makes us born again, begotten again from above.

I have no disagreement being a disciple entails a long road of sanctification and obedient service to Messiah. Such is Holy Spirit led as Jesus said He would not leave us orphans. This is why we join together as ekklesia as we have One Master.

18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

It is a process of reconciliation through the purgation fires of the Spirit (John 3:5)

The new things have come and the new creation is a process in play, onto biological death and onto resurrection, to finally receive what was hoped for.

Yes but there is a beginning point like creation, "let there be light" and the process of the Father conforming us to the Image of Christ begins. Then culminates in the resurrection and receiving our glorified bodies.

We agree on much as we are pilgrims sojourning on earth being conformed to the Image of Christ by God's Grace and Mercy. Our obedient service being a sweet aroma to His nostrils.

 

[2tim_215]

Responding to the original question: Are we saved by faith? Simple answer: No.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We are saved "through" faith not "by" it. We are saved by grace (God's unmerited favor).

And to clarify, we are justified by works (James). No contradictions, just proper exegesis required and using the right Bible. Once we get "saved", it stands to reason that we ought to do "good works' in order to please God but this is not really a salvation issue. Once we accept Christ and not only believe in Him, but "trust" Him as well, then we are saved. The question that then comes for us is "what's next"? That's when works come in. Hope this help some of you.

 

[The Times]

A truly born again from above per John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 is permanently spiritually changed. This salvation EVENT cannot be reversed.

You mention it as an irreversible event, that cannot be interrupted or aborted, but is this what Jesus taught?

Think about it for a moment. Is it a single event in time or is it a progressive process, that has a beginning and an ending, where the ending is biological death unto resurrection of that new birth, as the last Adams, by following in the foot steps of the First Born and forerunner to the resurrection Jesus Christ.

The birthing of any creature is a one time event. One moment they are in the womb the next they are out and breathing the open air on their own. From there they continue their development under their parents and then some day become adults on their own. It's a wonderful depiction Christ gives us. St Peter elaborates:

Sometimes, I don't know how to thank some kindred spirits who provide me wonderful analogies to demonstrate what I have laboriously wanting to describe all along within previous posts.

Let us use the analogy of the New birthing of a creature from the womb and into the new world.

The person is not born when they are out of the womb and into the new world. The moment that the spirit of life entered the flesh within the womb, the person is a living spirit, hence a new born or born again.

The birthing happens from conception when the person is a living spirit and is complete after they exit the womb having the new body, within the new world.

They began as a new born or born again within the womb, when the Spirit of life entered in them (Romans 8). Hence the new birthing has a beginning when the Spirit entered flesh, and ends when the person is out of th womb and into the new world.

So there is a beginning and ending process of the new birth. During this time, within the womb, anything could happen and the new birthing can be miscarriaged or aborted all together.

The fact is, a servant of Christ is in the process of birthing, to one day complete it on the day of resurrection, when he exists the womb and enters the new heavens and the new earth. This new birthing process can be interrupted at anytime, whilst the servant is in the womb.

We have scriptural evidence that a miscarriage can happen, and has happened when countless servants have no longer stayed faithful to Christ and have indulged in the body of sin unto biological death. The Bible tells us that if a person lives after the flesh, that is the body of sin, then this results in death or miscarriage of the new born (Romans 8).

The new birth can also be terminated at birth, meaning aborted and scripture clearly has Jesus declaring that if a servant does not remain faithful unto death, then he being the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers, there, there will be crying and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus uses another parable of servants saying Lord Lord Lord and claiming to be New Borns, yet the Master aborts them, by saying go away, I never knew you, you evil doers. Another about the five unwise Virgins who forget to keep the faith unto the midnight hour, where they were aborted as well. Another parable of a servant at a wedding without wedding garments, aborted as well.

Do not think that the new birthing in this life is a one time done deal, that is signed sealed and delivered without any conditional recourse, because Jesus on several occasions aborts the birthing process, when the new born is about to come out of the womb and into Christ's new heavens and new earth, his Father's house of many rooms (dimensions).

 

[redleghunter]

You mention it as an irreversible event, that cannot be interrupted or aborted, but is this what Jesus taught?

Think about it for a moment. Is it a single event in time or is it a progressive process, that has a beginning and an ending, where the ending is biological death unto resurrection of that new birth, as the last Adams, by following in the foot steps of the First Born and forerunner to the resurrection Jesus Christ.



Sometimes, I don't know how to thank some kindred spirits who provide me wonderful analogies to demonstrate what I have laboriously wanting to describe all along within previous posts.

Let us use the analogy of the New birthing of a creature from the womb and into the new world.

The person is not born when they are out of the womb and into the new world. The moment that the spirit of life entered the flesh within the womb, the person is a living spirit, hence a new born or born again.

The birthing happens from conception when the person is a living spirit and is complete after they exit the womb having the new body, within the new world.

They began as a new born or born again within the womb, when the Spirit of life entered in them (Romans 8). Hence the new birthing has a beginning when the Spirit entered flesh, and ends when the person is out of th womb and into the new world.

So there is a beginning and ending process of the new birth. During this time, within the womb, anything could happen and the new birthing can be miscarriaged or aborted all together.

The fact is, a servant of Christ is in the process of birthing, to one day complete it on the day of resurrection, when he exists the womb and enters the new heavens and the new earth. This new birthing process can be interrupted at anytime, whilst the servant is in the womb.

We have scriptural evidence that a miscarriage can happen, and has happened when countless servants have no longer stayed faithful to Christ and have indulged in the body of sin unto biological death. The Bible tells us that if a person lives after the flesh, that is the body of sin, then this results in death or miscarriage of the new born (Romans 8).

The new birth can also be terminated at birth, meaning aborted and scripture clearly has Jesus declaring that if a servant does not remain faithful unto death, then he being the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers, there, there will be crying and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus uses another parable of servants saying Lord Lord Lord and claiming to be New Borns, yet the Master aborts them, by saying go away, I never knew you, you evil doers. Another about the five unwise Virgins who forget to keep the faith unto the midnight hour, where they were aborted as well. Another parable of a servant at a wedding without wedding garments, aborted as well.

Do not think that the new birthing in this life is a one time done deal, that is signed sealed and delivered without any conditional recourse, because Jesus on several occasions aborts the birthing process, when the new born is about to come out of the womb and into Christ's new heavens and new earth, his Father's house of many rooms (dimensions).

I think you confuse the new spiritual birth our spiritual regeneration with the eventual resurrection of our bodies. What you posit above is not anything I've heard from an Eastern Orthodox before. They usually tell me we are born again at baptism.

The verses I shared with you previously show our standing as already begotten of God and a new creation. You have no argument from me of the sanctification process the Holy Spirit parents us through.