If everyone's saved, what's the point of being a Christian?

[Hmm]

Thank you for clarifying. This is about Universalism.

If you need a lable for clarification, I'm glad I gave one. I'm not sure what kind of clarity a simple lable gives though... But I see how Universalism Bad, Non-Universalism Good works, to some extent anyway.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is an actual hell. The Jews called it both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the OT.. It was written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
That being said there was a sentient being called "hell" which followed the angel of death. Rev 6:8
The word translated as "power" in Rev 6:8

ἐξουσία exousia ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.​

I believe there is a hell I just believe that it is the place where the lake of fire is within. That “power” or “authority” could’ve been in reference to Death who was riding upon the horse and Hades was the place where the people who were killed by death would go. Hence Hades followed Death. Kind of like saying prison follows the police.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is an actual hell. The Jews called it both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the OT.. It was written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
That being said there was a sentient being called "hell" which followed the angel of death. Rev 6:8
The word translated as "power" in Rev 6:8

ἐξουσία exousia ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.​

So you believe that Hades and Hell are the same place and the lake of fire is a different place? Or do you believe that the lake of fire is in Hell and Hades because they are the same place? Do you believe people are kept in Hell/Hades outside of the lake of fire then are later thrown into the lake of fire?

 

[Der Alte]

I believe there is a hell I just believe that it is the place where the lake of fire is within. That “power” or “authority” could’ve been in reference to Death who was riding upon the horse and Hades was the place where the people who were killed by death would go. Hence Hades followed Death.

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

 

[BNR32FAN]

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

And I saw a black car and in the car was a police officer and authority was given to him to arrest people and prison followed with him. As I pointed out the same word translated to “them” is also used in this same verse and translated as “him”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

I see your point but I have a hard time believing that in every case where hades is mentioned in the NT it always refers to a place and in this particular verse it appears to refer to a person when it can still be translated as referring to a place and not actually a person or being and it can still make perfect sense.

 

[Hmm]

Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. ​

​

You're a Clint Eastwood fan too! We must be soul mates comrade.

 

[Der Alte]

So you believe that Hades and Hell are the same place and the lake of fire is a different place? Or do you believe that the lake of fire is in Hell and Hades because they are the same place? Do you believe people are kept in Hell/Hades outside of the lake of fire then are later thrown into the lake of fire?

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

From the same Jewish Encycllopedia article.

“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). ​

 

[BNR32FAN]

​

You're a Clint Eastwood fan too? We must be soul mates!

Yeah mostly his westerns tho. He did a few other movies I like outside of his westerns but I like his western movies the most.

 

[BNR32FAN]

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

From the same Jewish Encycllopedia article.

“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). ​

Yes I’m familiar with the word Gehenna but I don’t see how this changes anything. Souls aren’t destroyed in Hades they’re destroyed in the lake of fire in hell.

 

[Hmm]

Yeah mostly his westerns tho. He did a few other movies I like outside of his westerns but I like his western movies the most.

I agree. His "The Man with No Name" must be the greatest piece of acting in movie history!

 

[Der Alte]

You're a Clint Eastwood fan too! We must be soul mates comrade.

Yes, but more like Kurt Russell the quote from Rev 6:8 was repeated 3 times in the movie Tombstone. Once by a priest in Spanish, then Curly Bill translates it then Wyatt/Kurt at the train.

 

[BNR32FAN]

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

From the same Jewish Encycllopedia article.

“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). ​

I already confirmed that Gehenna is hell.

I believe that Hell is a different place than Hades and that the lake of fire is in Hell because Gehenna (the metaphorical name for Hell) is often referred to as the place of torment in eternal fire and destruction in the scriptures as opposed to Hades which is the temporary place of torment

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree. His "The Man with No Name" must be the greatest piece of acting in movie history!

I don’t actually remember that one. It must’ve been a long time ago since I’ve seen it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, but more like Kurt Russell the quote from Rev 6:8 was repeated 3 times in the movie Tombstone. Once by a priest in Spanish, then Curly Bill translates it then Wyatt/Kurt at the train.

Yeah another great movie. I also recommend Appaloosa with Ed Harris. I like the way he played a no nonsense character.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree. His "The Man with No Name" must be the greatest piece of acting in movie history!

The name is familiar so I know I’ve seen it just can’t remember the story.

 

[Hmm]

I don’t actually remember that one. It must’ve been a long time ago since I’ve seen it.

"The Man with No Name" is the name of the eponymous character he played in all of his spaghetti westerns, rather than the name of any one film. He played effectively the same character so well and in several movies and I can't think of anything even near it. Like a thinking man's John Wayne perhaps!

 

[Hmm]

Yeah another great movie. I also recommend Appaloosa with Ed Harris. I like the way he played a no nonsense character.

I've not seen that, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Der Alte]

A Fistful of Dollars '64
A Few dollars more '64
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly '65

 

[BNR32FAN]

"The Man with No Name" is the name of the eponymous character he played in all of his spaghetti westerns, rather than the name of any one film. He played effectively the same character so well and in several movies and I can't think of anything even near it. Like a thinking man's John Wayne perhaps!

“you interfere with my cut…it might interfere with my aim”. Lol

 

[Hmm]

“you interfere with my cut…it might interfere with my aim”. Lol

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly yeah? What a film, and what great music by Ennio Morricone!

Here's the final shootout showing how good they were:

Sorry to proselytise!