If everyone's saved, what's the point of being a Christian?

[Der Alte]

I think I took a wrong toin back there at Albecoyque.

 

[Hmm]

I think I took a wrong toin back there at Albecoyque.

Or somewhere, for sure.

 

[bling]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.

But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow. Can bitterness and envy ever be right? So is not the meaning that the older brother's reaction was wrong and that he should have wanted what his father wanted? His human wanted his son back no matter he had done so isn't the lesson for us that we should try to see salvation as God does, that He wants to save all His children and He does not have favourites? Kim Jong Un may favour his acolytes but God doesn't. He wants us all to live life in all it's fullness and so you'd think the last thing He wants is that we become envious and bitter like the older brother.

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

But if we see things as God sees them, we are all His children and as the Good Shepherd He doesn't give up on any one of His lost sheep and acts eternally until they are found.

Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy? We may be happy if our father kicks the prodigal into touch and disinherits him but shouldn't we try to get out of God's way and let Him be a loving Father to all His children? And stop trying to redefine Him as someone who would rather torture a prodigal rather than rescuing them. It's not about what we want but about what God wants.

The prodigal son story is a good story which describes many of us.

As part of doing all God can to help willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective you see God allowing His prodigal sons to spiral down to the pigsty of life. This is so willing individuals as make a choice to just be willing to humbly accept the Father’s undeserved help (Charity/Love/grace/mercy/forgiveness). That free will choice allows God to shower the son with unbelievable wonderful gifts, including eternal life and Godly type Love. The son was given the very best opportunity to make the free will choice to accept the Father’s Love he would have known about, but he could have also decided to not humble himself, not accept the Father’s Love and proudly take the punishment he fully deserved. If the son refused to turn to his father what more could be done and still be the son’s free will choice?

This real choice can happen on earth, but how would it happen like this in some after life situation?

 

[Hmm]

This real choice can happen on earth, but how would it happen like this in some after life situation?

I don't understand why you think it can't. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you die not having accepted Christ in your life and you find yourself before God in a post-mortem state. Of course we don't know exactly what this will be like because we haven't experienced it but I think it's safe to say that we will still possess the capacity to relate and respond to God. Now, you may reject that this scenario can ever exist but in the universalist view it can and will for some at least. God at this point will want you to know Him well enough that you love Him so He will essentially be wooing you. You still have free choice so why can't you reject His attempts to win you over? The universalist position as I understand it is that of course you can, just as you can and indeed would have done on earth. But it believes that no-one has the power to hold out forever thus twarting God's will to one day be "all in all". And why would anyone want to anyway?

But my question to you is why couldn't you say "No" to God for a while in this scenario? Where does the "couldn't" come from?

 

[Der Alte]

I don't understand why you think it can't. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you die not having accepted Christ in your life and you find yourself before God in a post-mortem state. Of course we don't know exactly what this will be like because we haven't experienced it but I think it's safe to say that we will still possess the capacity to relate and respond to God. Now, you may reject that this scenario can ever exist but in the universalist view it can and will for some at least. God at this point will want you to know Him well enough that you love Him so He will essentially be wooing you. You still have free choice so why can't you reject His attempts to win you over? The universalist position as I understand it is that of course you can, just as you can and indeed would have done on earth. But it believes that no-one has the power to hold out forever thus twarting God's will to one day be "all in all". And why would anyone want to anyway?
But my question to you is why couldn't you say "No" to God for a while in this scenario? Where does the "couldn't" come from?

You quite evidently do not know the scriptures.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

 

[bling]

I don't understand why you think it can't. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you die not having accepted Christ in your life and you find yourself before God in a post-mortem state. Of course we don't know exactly what this will be like because we haven't experienced it but I think it's safe to say that we will still possess the capacity to relate and respond to God. Now, you may reject that this scenario can ever exist but in the universalist view it can and will for some at least. God at this point will want you to know Him well enough that you love Him so He will essentially be wooing you. You still have free choice so why can't you reject His attempts to win you over? The universalist position as I understand it is that of course you can, just as you can and indeed would have done on earth. But it believes that no-one has the power to hold out forever thus twarting God's will to one day be "all in all". And why would anyone want to anyway?

But my question to you is why couldn't you say "No" to God for a while in this scenario? Where does the "couldn't" come from?

You are not going to be allowed to make a drunken response. You have all the time you need to decide the response you are going to give. The reason you can say “no” on earth and take some pride among your pears for being self-reliant, macho, willing to pay the piper and take the punishment you fully deserve, is mainly to continue your pursuit of worldly pleasures. These are all selfish reasons.

What possible selfish reason could you have for saying no to God standing there in all His glory?

No one would be proud of your choice and there is no one else around unless Jesus and some angels are there also.

 

[public hermit]

You quite evidently do not know the scriptures.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

None of those passages from the Hebrew scriptures can be used for your point since it's anachronistic to assume they're referring to an afterlife that involves heaven and hell; that was a later development. The ancient Israelite conception was Sheol, not heaven and hell. Of course there is no hope after death when you believe in Sheol. Death is the final end; the rest is simply being dead.

Your NT passages are questionable in terms of supporting your objection to Hmm's post. But I'm surprised you would use OT passages given the lack of a robust afterlife in the OT. I guess knowing the scriptures isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Hmm]

The reason you can say “no” on earth and take some pride among your pears for being self-reliant, macho, willing to pay the piper and take the punishment

It's interesting that pears value these qualities. I didn't know that but I was thinking more about humans...

 

[Strong in Him]

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the older brother was annoyed that his younger brother was welcomed back by his father. This seems to make some sense because after all he had been the dutiful son and it must have seemed that his loyalty meant nothing to his dad.

But it also feels that this bitterness must be wrong somehow.

Of course it is.
We think of the Prodigal son as being the one who was "lost", but the older brother was just as lost. He didn't understand that everything his father had, was his. He didn't seem to understand grace and mercy.

Team Hell seems to get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the thought "I'm special and that's why God is saving me".

There's a "team hell"?
If there is, how do you know what they're thinking?

Instead of resenting our Father's feelings for the prodigals amongst us and feeling under-appreciated and sorry for ourselves should we not want what makes Him happy, rather than what makes us happy?

How do you know we don't??

 

[bling]

It's interesting that pears value these qualities. I didn't know that but I was thinking more about humans...

Humans are our pears. Being macho, self-reliant, and willing to accept what you deserve is looked upon with favor.

 

[Juan777]

You would think, based on some youtube videos out there about Christians ending up in hell, that it's not the fact that the Prodigal son repented and returned to the Father that saved him, it's the fact that he didn't die on the way before he meet the Father otherwise he'd be in hell. That's how NDE's and some of these messages can pervert a story like that.

 

[Saint Steven]

Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

Wow. That's solid gold right there. Awesome!

"Put my feet up, 'cuz, I got mine."

 

[Saint Steven]

... "I'm special and that's why God is saving me". This is shown here on CF by the number of times the question "What's the point of being a Christian if everyone's saved?" is asked. Exclusivity seems to be an essential part of their faith.

Awesome topic, thanks!

I love your "Exclusivity" observation. We should dig into that a bit deeper. IMHO

Seems to be a cultural alignment. (brought into the church)

 

[Saint Steven]

I refute universalism quite frequently...

Seriously?

 

[Saint Steven]

This is about Universalism. A fringe doctrine at best, heretical at worst. ...

We are in pretty good company. Jesus was a heretic, by definition.
His beliefs were outside the orthodox norm.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We are in pretty good company. Jesus was a heretic, by definition.
His beliefs were outside the orthodox norm.

Actually, Jesus' beliefs lined up fairly well with those of the Pharisees, but not the Saducees. If you embrace Saducee beliefs as being those of Orthodox Judaism, then you will need to find some means of discrediting Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, both present and historically, in favor of Reform and Reconstruction Judaism, neither of which have much in the way of historic lineage.

Although Jesus is typically believed to have been completely anti-Pharisee, He was probably a super-Pharisee. He believed in God, in the inspired texts which we commonly call the Old Testament, angels, demons, Satan, the bodily resurrection of the dead, and miracles. All of these things were part and parcel of Pharisaical theology. He differed from the Pharisees principally in the concept of righteousness (both personal righteousness and God's righteousness).

 

[Hmm]

He didn't understand that everything his father had, was his. He didn't seem to understand grace and mercy.

I was asking why the prodigal's brother resented his brother's full acceptance by this father. How does "He didn't understand that everything his father had, was his" explain this. Isn't the point that he didn't understand that everything his father had, was not his - it was also his brothers, much as he didn't like that?

There's a "team hell"?
If there is, how do you know what they're thinking?

By Team Hell I mean someone who passionately defends the idea of eternal torture of non-believers by God. Assuming the concept is not scriptual, isn't it obvious what they're thinking? If you believe it is scriptural, then carry on

How do you know we don't??

This is in response to me saying that if God wants us all to be saved and if we don't want that too then we don't want what God wants. I don't see what you're questioning here. Can you elaborate?

 

[Hmm]

I love your "Exclusivity" observation. We should dig into that a bit deeper. IMHO

I guess it's that human nature is such that, in general, if we win a Ferrari we'd be happy but if we took it out for our first drive and saw that everyone else was also driving a Ferrari because they had also won one, we'd be less happy.

 

[Hmm]

Humans are our pears. Being macho, self-reliant, and willing to accept what you deserve is looked upon with favor.

I don't know. These aren't qualities that I particularly admire in people. Are they yours?

 

[Der Alte]

...There's a "team hell"?...

"Team hell" is the pejorative term the UR-ites use to refer to those of us who believe there is a hell and the unrighteous will end up there. They do not believe that Jesus actually said this.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus did not say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven Jesus said, "Not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [i.e. Judgement day] "Lord, Lord, have we not ...in thy name done many wonderful works?"...then will I profess [to those many] ...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by.