simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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But not everything we do is determined by Scripture. Not every little facet of our lives. We live within a Scriptural framework, but Scripture doesn't tell us what to do in every circumstance.
Well in a vague sense it does, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." :D
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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good stuff. I'm curious when this difference manifested, pre or post "schism"
I suppose it is best to ask the EOC or RCC :sorry:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7490477-11/
This.

The Romans are in schism with the Orthodox, they do not share in our sacramental life nor are they in communion of belief. The Romans don't see it this way. The two cannot be two "lungs" of the same Church if they are not in communion of belief. This is a simple logical conclusion.
 
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Nanopants

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Well in a vague sense it does, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." :D

Following that to its logical consequences leads me to.... Lol. But it's not necessarily untrue.

Even if there are somethings that can't really glorify God, per se, personally I think its very much in line with this teaching:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15)

And living life with that mindset does, in my opinion, glorify God.
 
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Philothei

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Really? why not, you don't think the God of this universe gave us this word in part so we are able to live in a fallen world and still have hope and joy, and a light yoke? scripture should be our standard for living.

Simon do you water your plants? is it in the bible? nah...yes you should not:cool:
 
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Philothei

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But not everything we do is determined by Scripture. Not every little facet of our lives. We live within a Scriptural framework, but Scripture doesn't tell us what to do in every circumstance.
:thumbsup: that is what I was getting to...
 
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simonthezealot

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Simon do you water your plants? is it in the bible? nah...yes you should not:cool:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Guess that means I need to care for the plants...:)
 
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Kristos

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Does the catholic church view scriptures as a divine revelation from God?


Yes.


From the Catechism

Quote:
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

So the answer to my question is no?
 
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Philothei

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Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Guess that means I need to care for the plants...:)
It does not clasify how often though so that means you have to use your judgment to do that right? ;) But we can do this all day..I suppose you could find ANY verses that you think they are applicable. You can prove or disprove anything under the sun that way and justify anything too..:p
 
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Kristos

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Does the catholic church view scriptures as a divine revelation from God?


Yes.


From the Catechism

Quote:
105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

This doesn't say anything about "direct" - in fact it highlights that the evangelsists were "true authors". While I don't find fault per se in the letters, I think this falls well short of the Orthodox understanding. A cursory explanation of which would occupy at least 10 pages:) One of the key things that seems to be missing is the living nature of Scripture when in context. This definition seems to relegate Scripture to a status of literature, holy and inspired yes, but in the end it's a book and in the hands of the unbeliever, this is exactly what it is - just a book - dead. But should we define Scripture in the same way for the believer? Or perhaps more appropriately for the gathering of believers whose hearts, as the Apostle Paul says in his letter to the Colossians, are knit together in love, that they might enjoy the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of the mystery of God, which are hidden in the Lord Jesus Christ. So in context, Scripture in the hands of the Church (the gathering of believers) is much more than a book, much more than literature. It is even more than the word of God, it becomes an ikon of the Word Himself and a revelation there of. Thus every Divine Liturgy begins with the liturgy of the Word, which culminates in the reading of the Scripture for the hearing of those knit together by love. And in the hearing by those gathered, through the Holy Spirit, they are the Body of Christ, His Church, and receive the mystery of His Word. Just as Christ is alive, so is the Scripture and so with the living Body, they become one Truth, the full revelation of God's mystery.
 
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Fotina

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Maybe you can tell me how you represent someone accurately who was without sin when everyone else is with sin? Just because Jesus was born in a human body it doesn't mean He was like everyone else.

Scripture doesn't try to tell us how the Word looks like (John 1:1), it tells us Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. The same thing in Colossians 2:9, scripture doesn't tell us how deity looks like, but it tells us the fullness of deity is in Jesus.

As soon as you try to make an icon out of that you are trying to represent something that isn't possible for us to put into an image and by doing so we make a god in our own image.

If you can paint Christ as it fits you, you will present a Christ in your image and if your image doesn't line up with a holy, pure, perfect God-man, you have made it into an idol.



These objections were all thoroughly refuted by St Theodore the Studite at the 7th Ecumenical Synod.

The Second Iconoclastic Period.
What is important in the renewed debate is that a new and formidable apologist, St. Theodore the Studite, moves to the forefront, clarifying the relationship between the image and its prototype in such a way as to enhance our understanding of the symbolic and iconic with particular precision.

It was in their own synod, held in 754 under Constantine Copronymos, that the iconoclasts set the stage for the debate undertaken by St. Theodore. They accused the Orthodox of falling to two separate heresies in painting an icon of Christ. On the one hand they were accused of trying to portray both the human and the divine natures of Christ, thus running the risk of confusing these two and resulting in the heresy of Monophysitism. Only the Divine Will could so ineffably and without confusion unite the divine and human in Christ, the iconoclasts warned. If, on the other hand, the Orthodox were to agree with the view that the divine nature cannot be depicted, as the iconoclasts rightly maintained, then that would leave them only the human nature of Christ to represent. And if that were all that they depicted, they would be separating the divine and the human, which would constitute the heresy of Nestorianism.

The Orthodox response to this seeming dilemma was formulated in the exhaustive treatment of this and all iconoclastic arguments during the sessions of the Seventh Œcumenical Synod in 787. And their response formed an integral part of the apologetics of the second iconoclastic period. The Fathers gathered in the synod evoked the ancient Patristic distinction between person (hypostasis) and nature (essence), a distinction first systematically put forth in the thinking of the Cappadocian Fathers. The specific focus of the Cappadocians was Trinitarian theology, and they determined that, with regard to the Holy Trinity, we must speak of three hypostases and one essence. This is the same terminology was then employed in the Christological definitions at a later time in the early Church. In particular, at Chalcedon the Orthodox posited a union of two natures, the human and the divine, in the one divine person of Christ. Outside the members of the Holy Trinity, it is usual to speak of any individual (or object) as being distinguished by a hypostasis (person, form) and a nature (essence). On the basis of this Patristic witness, the iconodules were able to state that the error of the iconoclasts, then, was their constant tendency to conceive of the icon as being of the same nature as its prototype. In fact, the only icon to which they could give their approval was the Eucharist, a view which the Fathers of the Seventh Synod flatly rejected. The Eucharist, they argued, is not an image, but is, rather, identical to its prototype, noting that "neither the Lord, nor the Apostles, nor the Fathers, ever used the term 'images' to speak of the unbloody sacrifice offered by the priest, but always called it the very Body and Blood." (10) As for a possible essential relationship between the icon and its prototype, St. Theodore the Studite comments that, "...no one could be so foolish as to think that reality and its shadow, ...the prototype and its representation, the cause and the consequence are by nature [according to essence] identical." (11) Yet this was precisely the argument of the iconoclasts with regard to the sacred image. Thus their failure to understand why the veneration of the image reaches up to the prototype, if simply because they failed to understand the nature of the hypostasis of the icon, which disallows the stark distinction established by the iconoclasts between the image and its prototype according to essence alone.

St. Theodore summarized the arguments of the iconodules during the second iconoclastic period in a particularly brilliant passage which establishes the similarity or commonality of image and prototype qua hypostasis. In this summation, we find a clear and compelling understanding of the natural relationship between image and prototype which also accounts for the natural process by which veneration of the image lifts up to its prototype—why the veneration accrues to the prototype:
[In an icon] the prototype is in the image by similarity of hypostasis, which does not have a different principle of definition for the prototype and for the image. Therefore, we do not understand that the image lacks equality with the prototype and has an inferior glory in respect to similarity, but in respect to its different essence. The essence of the image is not of a nature to be venerated, although the one who is portrayed appears in it for veneration. Therefore, there is no introduction of a different kind of veneration, but the image has one and the same veneration with the prototype, in accordance with the identity of likeness. (12)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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These objections were all thoroughly refuted by St Theodore the Studite at the 7th Ecumenical Synod.
LLOJ once again heads for wiki!

Theodore the Studite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theodore the Studite (also known as Theodorus Studita, St. Theodore of Stoudios, and St. Theodore of Studium; 759–826) was a Byzantine Greek monk and abbot of the Stoudios monastery in Constantinople.[1]
He played a major role in the revivals both of Byzantine monasticism and of classical literary genres in Byzantium. He is known as a zealous opponent of iconoclasm, one of several conflicts that set him at odds with both emperor and patriarch.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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This doesn't say anything about "direct" - in fact it highlights that the evangelsists were "true authors". While I don't find fault per se in the letters, I think this falls well short of the Orthodox understanding. A cursory explanation of which would occupy at least 10 pages:) One of the key things that seems to be missing is the living nature of Scripture when in context. This definition seems to relegate Scripture to a status of literature, holy and inspired yes, but in the end it's a book and in the hands of the unbeliever, this is exactly what it is - just a book - dead. But should we define Scripture in the same way for the believer? Or perhaps more appropriately for the gathering of believers whose hearts, as the Apostle Paul says in his letter to the Colossians, are knit together in love, that they might enjoy the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of the mystery of God, which are hidden in the Lord Jesus Christ. So in context, Scripture in the hands of the Church (the gathering of believers) is much more than a book, much more than literature. It is even more than the word of God, it becomes an ikon of the Word Himself and a revelation there of. Thus every Divine Liturgy begins with the liturgy of the Word, which culminates in the reading of the Scripture for the hearing of those knit together by love. And in the hearing by those gathered, through the Holy Spirit, they are the Body of Christ, His Church, and receive the mystery of His Word. Just as Christ is alive, so is the Scripture and so with the living Body, they become one Truth, the full revelation of God's mystery.

If you think Catholics don't agree, then you're not reading your Hans Urs von Balthasar or Henri de Lubac. Or even your Scott Hahn. I would recommend the latter's Letter and Spirit and new Consuming the Word.
 
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JesusFreak78

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Why is that?

I disagree with him when he says, “in an icon the prototype is in the image by similarity by hypostasis, which does not have a different principle of definition for the prototype and for the image. Therefore, we do not understand that the image lacks equality with the prototype and has an inferior glory in respect to similarity, but in respect to its different essence”.

An icon can and never will have any similarity to God. It never has and never will be able to symbolize God’s holiness, His glory or His majesty, which means what you try to show people, is a God in your own image.
 
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