I Have An Honest Question For Christians

[aiki]

Pascal's Wager.
Maybe you better start asking yourself what happens if YOU'RE wrong about Allah, or Zeus, or Odin....because if you ARE, they're gonna be super mad at you worshiping some false god.
And there's an EQUALLY LIKELY chance that they are the true god.

On what basis do you assert that there is an "equally likely" chance that other gods are true. How much do you know about the formation of the biblical texts, their historicity, their archaeological accuracy? Do you know only enough to keep you comfortable in your atheism? Or have you really dug into all the available evidence for the claims of the Bible? As far as I'm concerned, the evidence strongly suggests to me that the God of the Bible and not Odin, Zeus or Allah is the One, True God.

Peace to you.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

On what basis do you assert that there is an "equally likely" chance that other gods are true.

On the basis of historical, scientific, archaeological research.

How much do you know about the formation of the biblical texts, their historicity, their archaeological accuracy?

I know that most historians assert that the bible is NOT to be taken as a literal, historical text.
I know all about the formations, the councils, the guys who 'put the bible together'.

Do you know only enough to keep you comfortable in your atheism? Or have you really dug into all the available evidence for the claims of the Bible? As far as I'm concerned, the evidence strongly suggests to me that the God of the Bible and not Odin, Zeus or Allah is the One, True God.

But the believers of Odin, Zeus and Allah have just as much evidence as you and they think it points to THEIR god.

And you WOULD think that the evidence points to your god, you have reason to. You have a psychological need for your god to exist.

 

[Key]

My hypothesis is that people who believe in god will continue to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary because NOT believing in god is painful or detrimental to them.

Well this is incorrect.

I've already done a massive survey that proves my original hypothesis, I was just looking for some good quotes from Christians.

Humm, and yet I wonder how you have done this? Was it in the same way as you are doing now?

It seems you want this to be the answer, and then look for evidence to back it up, no different then say the inverse universe theory.

It's not something I 'like to ponder', but I can tell you how my parents dying would make me feel.
I'd be a hysterical mess.
See? Not hard.

Really, not hard, you can imagine the pain, the suffering, the feelings you would have if they died, or is this just an arbitrary answer, that you just flung out with out truly pondering it.

I've never seen another atheist ask this question.

One forum Down, in Discussion/Debate, Go to General Apologetics, about once a week, someone asks this question. Or something similar to it.

Then why is it so hard for me to get a straight answer?

Answered Already.

Former atheists puzzle me.
Why were you an atheist?
Were you raised atheist?
What forced you to become christian?

1: Because I did not believe in God, any god.

2: No.

3: Nothing Forced me.

I've pondered it, yes, but I see no reason to believe in the existence of the Christian god over the other thousands of gods that have been said to exist.

Odd answer. However this level of rebuttal is equally common among atheist, seems like it is their only rebuttal.

It falls into the PRATT category, but again this is not a Debate Forum. so all I can do is answer your questions, in a nice friendly manner.

I don't believe anything with empirical evidence.

Don't you mean you don't believe anything without empirical evidence?

If that is the situation, then how do you know you have great grandparents?

Do you have empirical evidence of them?

(Note: Your alive today, and your Grandparents talk of them, is not Evidence anymore then Your alive today and people wrote a book about God is Empirical evidence of God's Existence)

No offense, but you really should Go to GA for a bit, just to realize what you are putting on the table has been laid down thousands of times before.

Empirical evidence does NOT include the bible OR personal experiences.

That is just Hilarious.

Ok, Humor me, why is the Bible not Empirical Evidence, I mean, is this simple "Because you don't want it to be" a simple matter of just rejecting what you do not like, or do you have any substantiated claim to disclaim the Bible as Evidence.

Maybe I can just Reject the Oxford Dictionary as evidence if it does not agree with what I want words to me. (Don't laugh, I have seem atheist do this, in the debate forums)

If there was a god and he somehow managed to prove to me that he was real then no, I wouldn't be afraid. Because then I wouldn't be an atheist.

Ok, now, here is where I say "What would it take to prove God to you" and then you respond with some outrageous claim of something like the sky splitting, or some such, or maybe if I had a piece of God in a bottle or something like that.

So I'll just bypass this whole thing.

Here's the thing.
I, and all of my atheist friends are not concerned in the slightest as to whether or not we're 'wrong'.

So why should a Christian be?

In order to fear the Christian god, you have to believe in it first, just as a child isn't afraid of monsters until they've been told about them.

That is again, not true. Unless you have done a great amount of research about parents telling their children that there is a "Real" monster under their bed.

Are you implying that Christians are happier, healthier and more likely to do good things than non-believers? That's quite the assertation.

And well supported.

Pascal's Wager.
Maybe you better start asking yourself what happens if YOU'RE wrong about Allah, or Zeus, or Odin....because if you ARE, they're gonna be super mad at you worshiping some false god.

Nahh, not even so much as a Single Regret really, I got a great shot at it, against any of them, and even better against others, like Thor for example, I have around an awesome shot of still going to Valhalla, I just have to make sure I go down fighting.

See this is laughable in the end of things, because the Wager is one to one. Many Atheist miss this point, the wager is just YOU and I, One to one, and when people say "What about those other Gods" well that is pointless, as you do not believe in them, when you can bring them to the table as something you have faith in, then we can talk of them. Until then, you might was well bring up Rudolph the Red nosed reindeer.

And there's an EQUALLY LIKELY chance that they are the true god.

Not at all.

Does anyone here have an argument for god that doesn't include Pascal's Wager?

Yes.

Guys, really, Pascal's Wager is super lame.
When an argument has been repeated so many times that its got its own Wikipedia page, maybe it's time to find a new one.

Yah, so is many of the things that are brought up by atheists, like "What if your God is Wrong" see your question, by it's nature is Pascals Wager, and then you get upset if people play the Pascals Wager, how do you fit that into a logical method?

You play the Wager, without truly grasping the Wager, and then you get upset when the wager is played against you?

And then you say people that play the Wager are "Super Lame" well, I guess then You are "Super lame" by your own standards, because you did start it.

God Bless

Key

 

[MaragonEvolved]

Well this is incorrect.

If you would like to take 6 years of University and conduct your own, contrary study, I'd be glad to look at it, and then take your opinions on mines validity.

Humm, and yet I wonder how you have done this? Was it in the same way as you are doing now?

I did a random population sampling of North America and asked 20000 people a set of questions.

It seems you want this to be the answer, and then look for evidence to back it up, no different then say the inverse universe theory.

I suggest you simply don't LIKE conclusions that are contrary to your god.

Really, not hard, you can imagine the pain, the suffering, the feelings you would have if they died, or is this just an arbitrary answer, that you just flung out with out truly pondering it.

This is an assumption, you seem to make alot of them.http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34897622&postcount=15

1: Because I did not believe in God, any god.

2: No.

3: Nothing Forced me.

If you were RAISED Christian then you didn't disbelieve in a god, you lost your faith in god, and then found it again.
You already KNEW about Jesus, you had the pre-existing structure needed to necessitate belief and re-conversion.

Odd answer. However this level of rebuttal is equally common among atheist, seems like it is their only rebuttal.

It falls into the PRATT category, but again this is not a Debate Forum. so all I can do is answer your questions, in a nice friendly manner.

Give me solid evidence that your god is the right one over all of the thousands of others, and I may change my mind.
You can't use the bible though, or else they can just point to their holy book and say yours is lying.

If that is the situation, then how do you know you have great grandparents?

Do you have empirical evidence of them?

(Note: Your alive today, and your Grandparents talk of them, is not Evidence anymore then Your alive today and people wrote a book about God is Empirical evidence of God's Existence)

I've met them, actually.
But this is a logical fallacy.
Of course we have empirical evidence of our great-grandparents, and their parents, and so on and so forth...we have birth certificates and other verifiable historical evidence.

If there was evidence of this type for your god, there would be no atheists.

No offense, but you really should Go to GA for a bit, just to realize what you are putting on the table has been laid down thousands of times before.

And do you think you're telling me something I've never heard?

That is just Hilarious.
Ok, Humor me, why is the Bible not Empirical Evidence, I mean, is this simple "Because you don't want it to be" a simple matter of just rejecting what you do not like, or do you have any substantiated claim to disclaim the Bible as Evidence.
Maybe I can just Reject the Oxford Dictionary as evidence if it does not agree with what I want words to me. (Don't laugh, I have seem atheist do this, in the debate forums)

First of all, the Oxford Dictionary cannot be compared to the bible, and to do so is just silly. One is for looking up definitions, the other is a historically inaccurate book from 2000 years ago.
The bible cannot be empirical evidence because the only thing it can prove is that the bible itself exists, it cannot prove god or divinity anymore than I can prove Merlin's existence using the legend of King Arthur. You would STILL want historical evidence of Merlin(a wizard) outside of this one book, wouldn't you?

Ok, now, here is where I say "What would it take to prove God to you" and then you respond with some outrageous claim of something like the sky splitting, or some such, or maybe if I had a piece of God in a bottle or something like that.
So I'll just bypass this whole thing.

How about a peer-reviewed scientific study?

That is again, not true. Unless you have done a great amount of research about parents telling their children that there is a "Real" monster under their bed.

Why would you think a parent needs to mention it?
They can pick it up from siblings, friends, television, books.

And well supported.

Incorrect.
There was a recent study released that proved the more atheist the country, the healthier the citizens.

Nahh, not even so much as a Single Regret really, I got a great shot at it, against any of them, and even better against others, like Thor for example, I have around an awesome shot of still going to Valhalla, I just have to make sure I go down fighting.
See this is laughable in the end of things, because the Wager is one to one. Many Atheist miss this point, the wager is just YOU and I, One to one, and when people say "What about those other Gods" well that is pointless, as you do not believe in them, when you can bring them to the table as something you have faith in, then we can talk of them. Until then, you might was well bring up Rudolph the Red nosed reindeer.

What you're not getting is that Pascal's wager isn't 'between you and me', its supposed to be between just you and god. You can't have a 'better' hand than someone else, because no one else is judged with you.
And Pascal's Wager doesn't mention other gods, which you'd know if you'd read it. I'm saying that you can apply the 'what if you're wrong' question to ANY god, not just yours.

Yah, so is many of the things that are brought up by atheists, like "What if your God is Wrong" see your question, by it's nature is Pascals Wager, and then you get upset if people play the Pascals Wager, how do you fit that into a logical method?

You play the Wager, without truly grasping the Wager, and then you get upset when the wager is played against you?

And then you say people that play the Wager are "Super Lame" well, I guess then You are "Super lame" by your own standards, because you did start it.

God Bless

Key

My original question had nothing to do with Pascal's Wager. I asked a hypothetical question and asked you for an emotional response.
Someone else brought up Pascal, I just educated him on the fallacy of the argument.

 

[theVirginian]

Does the idea that there is no God frighten you?

Is this limited to the Christian god or are you asking whether it would scare me if it turned out that atheists are right?

 

[MaragonEvolved]

Is this limited to the Christian god or are you asking whether it would scare me if it turned out that atheists are right?

Your God.

This exercise SHOULDN'T have anything to do with my atheism, but I fear a bit of a debate broke out over it.

I'm just curious as to what your emotional reaction would be if someone proved to you that there was no god, how would you feel?

 

[TheCheat1]

I am a 4th year psychology student(yeah, I'm also an atheist but that has nothing to do with my paper), and I'm currently writing a paper on religious belief.

I just have a few questions that I hope some of you would be kind enough to answer.

Okay, lets say that for whatever reason, you begin to have doubts about your faith. Does the idea that there is no God frighten you?

Why does it frighten you?

OR

Why does it NOT frighten you?


Edit: To be clear, this is like a yes or no question plus a short justification.
What I am asking you to do is to PRETEND that it's possible that god does not exist and then tell me how you would feel about god not existing.

Thanks.




I would really appreciate you helping me out.



Have yourselves a nice day.

Yes it would scare me, and I'd stop living. I'm pretty sure that won't be happening, though. Hope some answers helped!

 

[VioletAngel]

I have a question for you. Why should we discount the Bible? What about all of the prophesies that have come to be true? I can point to my Bible all I want to because it has those prophesies and they were written hundreds of years in some cases before the actual event, naming the person and everything. If you studied Bible history, and the history of the Church, you would get a different view of it all.

 

[TheCheat1]

the other is a historically inaccurate book from 2000 years ago.

In your opinion.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

In your opinion.

No, in the opinions of accredited historians at all of the world's major Universities.

I wouldn't just say something without doing the research.

 

[TheCheat1]

No, in the opinions of accredited historians at all of the world's major Universities.

I wouldn't just say something without doing the research.

Accredited according to whom? You? Others with the same belief as you? Which makes them not accredited at all. I don't accredit them with that, nor does anyone like me, which I hope you are aware there are quite a few.

The validity of the Bible has been proven, and never disproved.

And I wouldn't say something like that without doing the research.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I have a question for you. Why should we discount the Bible? What about all of the prophesies that have come to be true? I can point to my Bible all I want to because it has those prophesies and they were written hundreds of years in some cases before the actual event, naming the person and everything. If you studied Bible history, and the history of the Church, you would get a different view of it all.

Do you have any prophecies from the bible that were fulfilled but not IN the bible?
What I mean is, if it was predicted in the Old Testament and then fulfilled in the New Testament, it simply cannot count.
Why?
Well, if my friends have all taken turns writing 5 pages of a story and it comes to me, and I'm supposed to add or finish it, I can read BACK to the original chapters, see what was SUPPOSED to happen there and then write about it and 'make' it happen.

Also, because of the hundreds of revisions, translations, mis-translations, versions, etc, it's almost impossible to find out what the earliest versions of the bible actually said.

What about the muslim holy book? They say it's real because it can and has predicted things. Does that mean it's real?

I assume you won't like my answer, and I apologize for that, but the fact of the matter is that the bible means nothing to a non-christian just as the Koran means nothing to you.

 

[VioletAngel]

Do you have any prophecies from the bible that were fulfilled but not IN the bible?
What I mean is, if it was predicted in the Old Testament and then fulfilled in the New Testament, it simply cannot count.
Why?
Well, if my friends have all taken turns writing 5 pages of a story and it comes to me, and I'm supposed to add or finish it, I can read BACK to the original chapters, see what was SUPPOSED to happen there and then write about it and 'make' it happen.

Also, because of the hundreds of revisions, translations, mis-translations, versions, etc, it's almost impossible to find out what the earliest versions of the bible actually said.

What about the muslim holy book? They say it's real because it can and has predicted things. Does that mean it's real?

I assume you won't like my answer, and I apologize for that, but the fact of the matter is that the bible means nothing to a non-christian just as the Koran means nothing to you.

I must admit I am not following your reasoning here. Could you clear up what you are saying? I am truly trying to understand. There are multitudes of prophesies that have come about, and continue to come about.

 

[TheCheat1]

Do you have any prophecies from the bible that were fulfilled but not IN the bible?
What I mean is, if it was predicted in the Old Testament and then fulfilled in the New Testament, it simply cannot count.
Why?
Well, if my friends have all taken turns writing 5 pages of a story and it comes to me, and I'm supposed to add or finish it, I can read BACK to the original chapters, see what was SUPPOSED to happen there and then write about it and 'make' it happen.

Also, because of the hundreds of revisions, translations, mis-translations, versions, etc, it's almost impossible to find out what the earliest versions of the bible actually said.

What about the muslim holy book? They say it's real because it can and has predicted things. Does that mean it's real?

I assume you won't like my answer, and I apologize for that, but the fact of the matter is that the bible means nothing to a non-christian just as the Koran means nothing to you.

That's where faith comes in. Also, we have the original manuscripts that show they weren't tampered with.

Also again, why would people die for something they were not sure about? I know I wouldn't.

What have you got to live for? When you take that last breathe, what do you think is going to happen?

 

[MaragonEvolved]

Accredited according to whom? You? Others with the same belief as you? Which makes them not accredited at all. I don't accredit them with that, nor does anyone like me, which I hope you are aware there are quite a few.

The validity of the Bible has been proven, and never disproved.

And I wouldn't say something like that without doing the research.

There is not a Historian in the world with a PhD who teaches at a top University that will say the bible should be treated as a historical document.
There are events that are claimed to take place that did not according to other, more accurate records taken by the governments at the time. A small example and the first off the top of my head is the census the took Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. Historians know that this never happened.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I must admit I am not following your reasoning here. Could you clear up what you are saying? I am truly trying to understand. There are multitudes of prophesies that have come about, and continue to come about.

I am asking you to show me the original prophecy and then link it to an event.
This event must not also happen in the bible, but in real life and it must be something that is provable.

I'm also asking you what you think about all of the prophecies of the Koran, and whether or not these prophecies make Muslims right.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

That's where faith comes in. Also, we have the original manuscripts that show they weren't tampered with.

Do you have any evidence or citation for these original manuscripts?
You do know that no one can READ the original language the bible was written in, correct? It's a dead language.

Also again, why would people die for something they were not sure about? I know I wouldn't.

This is a slippery slope, my friend.
People from EVERY FAITH have died for their religion.
Does that make them all true?

What have you got to live for? When you take that last breathe, what do you think is going to happen?

What haven't I got to live for?
I live for today.
I live for my fiancee, my family, my friends.
I live for humanity and the good things I think we can all accomplish.
I live for knowledge and always seek to know more about everything.
I live for my future children.
I live for my work and my schooling and the beauty of nature.

You're suggesting life without god belief is empty, and that's simply not true.
I've never been a happier, healthier person, and especially not when I was a theist.

When I take that last breath I will die. And I will be remembered by my friends and family, those who I loved and whom loved me, those who I helped through my social work.
Then my body will decompose and the atoms that are holding my body together will dissipate and go off into the universe to create other things.
We are all made of star stuff, and we all get recycled.

 

[VioletAngel]

I am asking you to show me the original prophecy and then link it to an event.
This event must not also happen in the bible, but in real life and it must be something that is provable.

I'm also asking you what you think about all of the prophecies of the Koran, and whether or not these prophecies make Muslims right.

Okay fair enough.

Here is one example.

"Now this is the way King Solomon conscripted the Labor Corps to build the house of the Lord, his house, the Millo, the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer"
The Holy Bible 1 Kings 9:15

The Solomonic Gate at Gezer was the third Solomonic Gate discovered. Combined with the discoveries of the Solomonic Gates at Megiddo in the 1930's and Hazor in the 1950's, the Gezer Gate completed the first proof of a biblical passage in history with rocks on the ground. It was the long sought after historical nexus where scientific theory validated Biblical History.

Is this something like you are looking for? Archaeological proof? There is lots more.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

Okay fair enough.

Here is one example.

"Now this is the way King Solomon conscripted the Labor Corps to build the house of the Lord, his house, the Millo, the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer"
The Holy Bible 1 Kings 9:15

The Solomonic Gate at Gezer was the third Solomonic Gate discovered. Combined with the discoveries of the Solomonic Gates at Megiddo in the 1930's and Hazor in the 1950's, the Gezer Gate completed the first proof of a biblical passage in history with rocks on the ground. It was the long sought after historical nexus where scientific theory validated Biblical History.

Is this something like you are looking for? Archaeological proof? There is lots more.

Do you have a link where I could read about this?
I'm not sure of the significance of this passage or why it would be considered a prophecy.
If the author KNEW that these things were built, how was he prophecy's anything?
What I mean is that the passage simply says that something was built, and later we found what was built.
That's not a prophecy.

A prophecy would be Jesus dictating Pi to the 800th decimal place, or someone predicting that humans would travel to the moon.


If there was a significance and I missed it, I apologize, and I'll ask you kindly to reword it.

 

[VioletAngel]

Do you have any evidence or citation for these original manuscripts?
You do know that no one can READ the original language the bible was written in, correct? It's a dead language.

It can still be read and understood. There are so many manuscripts that were made, and they were scattered around the known world at that time, sacred to the people who read them, and then after through time and distance were compared, and found to be almost identical, not changed except for a few minor copying errors. There were a lot more copies of the Bible written than of writings Plato and Socrates. Yet you believe they existed, don't you? A lot less proof, and just as much faith to believe that, yet you don't believe the Bible. The wonder about it is we should! The evidence is overwhelming.

This is a slippery slope, my friend.
People from EVERY FAITH have died for their religion.
Does that make them all true?

Read the stories of the saints that died from terrible tortures. It wasn't just death they endured, but tortures that lasted for days and weeks, and yet they never backed down from their faith. Many of them went willingly to their death, knowing the tortures that awaited them.

What haven't I got to live for?
I live for today.
I live for my fiancee, my family, my friends.
I live for humanity and the good things I think we can all accomplish.
I live for knowledge and always seek to know more about everything.
I live for my future children.
I live for my work and my schooling and the beauty of nature.

You're suggesting life without god belief is empty, and that's simply not true.
I've never been a happier, healthier person, and especially not when I was a theist.

We all do this too. Being a Christian doesn't mean an end to that.

When I take that last breath I will die. And I will be remembered by my friends and family, those who I loved and whom loved me, those who I helped through my social work.
Then my body will decompose and the atoms that are holding my body together will dissipate and go off into the universe to create other things.
We are all made of star stuff, and we all get recycled.

That may be. But the Bible promises so much more and life eternal, and even promising that all the suffering of this life will be worth it! Humans were created to worship God, and without fulfilment of this, we are nothing.