I Have An Honest Question For Christians

[MaragonEvolved]

I don't believe in any religious system, I believe in a person, Jesus.

I'm fairly sure that Jesus-worship falls under Christianity.

You obviously don't understand who the Jesus I believe in, really was. He was God the Son and He was God the Creator as stated in Colossians. He has always existed, so HE WAS BEFORE ALL OTHER RELIGIONS AND RELIGIOUS SYSTEMS. The One God Idea came from the ONE GOD. There was a time that that the Jewish faith was the right way, but a Jew brought that to an end. But within the Jewish own writings is indication that, there God was more then just God the Father, that there God would someday "provide himself as THE SACRIFICE", and that the very Jewish system pointed to a cpming system that would replace theirs. Many Jews are still missing that today.

Rest assured guys, I know all about Jesus and Christianity. I used to be a Christian, a youth pastor and a theology major.
It's one thing to say that Jesus has always existed, but it's an entirely different thing to provide evidence for that stance.
Don't you realize that, as I mentioned before that EVERY religion feels that their god and their religion is the one true one? You ask any Muslim or Jew who's god is the correct one to worship, and they will tell you its theres. And they will mean it just as completely as you do.

You can ignore the existence of God and ignore that He has done all He can to keep you from judgment, but unless you figure out a way to escape dying, you will stand before the God you don't believe in someday and be judged and you will be "without excuse".

You're playing the Pascal's Wager game again.
Ignore the existence of which god? Zeus? Thor? Odin? Allah? They all have an EQUALLY likely chance of existence. And believe me, a follower of another god will laugh at you, quote THEIR holy scriptures that were written before yours and state that their god is the one true one. It's circular logic.
I'm not afraid of judgment. I'm more concerned about cellulite than I am about being judged. Do you know why? You have to be a Christian and hold Christian beliefs BEFORE the idea of hell is scary to you. Unless you already ascribe to the belief system, hell is a made up place.

Here's a new question, just for you.

What does God promise to those who worship and devote their lives to him?

 

[heron]

Back to the OP short answer survey...

 

[heron]

What does God promise to those who worship and devote their lives to him?

Is this a question for your research, or for the discussion?

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I know that I can never live a "good" life, by any moral standards, on my own. I am intrinsically selfish.

That's unfortunate. I don't believe in Jesus and I have a degree in social work.
As an atheist, and a humanist, helping my fellow man is my highest priority.

And Christ is the only one who not only tells us how to live, but has actually taken our sins on Himself, and removed them, by His death.
So even though I am naturally fairly unpleasant, He has made me righteous.

I'm sorry that you have such a poor view of yourself.
In my experience, if you were a good person as a Christian you would continue to be a good person without being religious.

So yes, life without Him would be frightening.
But it is not something that actually frightens me, as I know Him.
I have more reason to doubt your existance than His!

Now that's an interesting statement.
I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a huge secular movement these days, many people are breaking free of god belief because there is simply no empirical evidence for the existence of a deity. Do you have some?

 

[MaragonEvolved]

Is this a question for your research, or for the discussion?

It's both, but it's kind of rhetorical.

God offers you eternal life with him in heaven, everyone knows that.

I ask that question so I can ask a second, better question,

 

[Key]

I am asking you to ponder the IDEA that PERHAPS god is not real and then tell me how that makes you feel.

That's it, that's all.

I believe your issue here is that you are looking for something that is not there and now trying to make the data fit the hypothesis.

See, the problem that arises with questions like this, is not how it makes people feel or what emotions are attached to these feelings of loss, in the case of many Christians, the Loss of not only their salvation, but also the relationship they have built with God and Jesus is not something they wish to ponder. Just as I would not ask you to ponder the idea if your parents died tomorrow, how would that make you feel? Or if you found out that your parents hated you and never wanted you in the first place, how would that make you feel? These are not questions that people like to ponder.

But, keep in mind, this is a common question asked by many Atheist, for what motive other then to stir emotions, I have no clue.

Now, the problem you have with a question like this, is that it only is a viable question to a Christian that has been raised a Christian all their lives and knows no other way (Hence why I used the parent analogy).

However, to a converted Christian, this question is futile, and pointless, as we do not have to ponder anything, but simply recall what our life was like before we came to Christ, there is no "Suppose" as we where like that, many of the converted Christians on this form where Former Atheist, since they lived your supposed question, they know for a fact what they felt like with out God in their lives.

Now for them, they may or may not have liked what their life was like when God was not there, but in neither case, do they have to ponder this question, as they know the answer.

I myself am a former Atheist, so, for me, to answer this question, is pointless, I know what the answer is, so as such, I can have no fear in either direction.

Now here is a fun twist, since you are asking people to ponder things, and provide an answer, and since you are a psychology student, maybe you can ponder the following, and provide us an answer.

Suppose God is real, how would that make you feel? Would you feel fear?

Is that a question you ponder?

Maybe you might want to write a Thesis on that direction, how would it make a person without Religious conviction feel to ponder if they were wrong.

As it stands for any Christian, we win, either way, if God is real, we go to heaven, and a blissful eternity. We win.

If God is not real, we lived a good life, found a way to overcome our vices and problems, used "god" to help us overcome our problems and obstacles in our lives and all in all we lived a far better and more gratifying life then we may have had as non-believers. We have found a way to overcome self centered ideals, and turn our lives around and make a better world for those around us, and our selves. all in all, We win.

Now an Atheist does not have this Win/Win situation, as such, they would have something to loose, if they were wrong. A Christian, does not. So you might get better results by asking them the question in the opposing direction, maybe start with yourself.

I hope I have answered this Question for you, in full and complete.

God Bless

Key

 

[aiki]

Okay, lets say that for whatever reason, you begin to have doubts about your faith. Does the idea that there is no God frighten you?

The idea that there is no God means that I am accidental, that there is no reason why I exist. This also would be true for all of what exists; everything would be just cosmically accidental. I think I would find it quite disturbing to live believing that my life was fundamentally without meaning, that I was just a fluke occurrence.

Peace to you.

 

[Criada]

That's unfortunate. I don't believe in Jesus and I have a degree in social work.
As an atheist, and a humanist, helping my fellow man is my highest priority.



I'm sorry that you have such a poor view of yourself.
In my experience, if you were a good person as a Christian you would continue to be a good person without being religious.

But you see, being "good" isn't good enough! God wants us to be perfect. And that we cannot manage!
I don't have a poor veiw of myself, I am a daughter of God!
I was just pointing out that human nature, even in the 'nicest' of people, can never really achieve goodness!

And there is a world of difference between 'being religious' and knowing God.

Now that's an interesting statement.
I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a huge secular movement these days, many people are breaking free of god belief because there is simply no empirical evidence for the existence of a deity. Do you have some?

I am aware of this, and frankly, I think that your conception of freedom and mine are very different.
And no, I do not have empirical evidence.
I am not sure that it is possible to have such.
And I speak as one who spent many years searching for such evidence.
But - I do have a relationship with God.
So either He is really there, or I have lost my mind.

 

[Key]

I'm fairly sure that Jesus-worship falls under Christianity.

That would be speculation.

Rest assured guys, I know all about Jesus and Christianity. I used to be a Christian, a youth pastor and a theology major.
It's one thing to say that Jesus has always existed, but it's an entirely different thing to provide evidence for that stance.

True, they are different, one is an Affirmation, the other is Evidence. They do not have anything in common.

As for "I know all about Christianity" that I highly doubt, as any Christian will tell you, you never truly stop learning, if you do, or feel that you have learned it all, then you never really learned anything to start with.

Don't you realize that, as I mentioned before that EVERY religion feels that their god and their religion is the one true one?

This is not true.

You ask any Muslim or Jew who's god is the correct one to worship, and they will tell you its theres. And they will mean it just as completely as you do.

So?

You're playing the Pascal's Wager game again.
Ignore the existence of which god? Zeus? Thor? Odin? Allah? They all have an EQUALLY likely chance of existence.

True, but you as a person that knows "All about Christianity" should know the aspect of Pascals Wager better then to bring that up.

Unless the case is, you do not grasp the nature of the wager in the first place.

Allow me to explain, each person, that would be, You and I, sit at a table, we both go "All In" you put down what YOU have, and I put down what I have. As such, in this game, Allah, Zeus, Thor, and the others do not matter, as you do not bring them to the table, because you do not believe in them. If you believed in Thor, and devoted your life to Thor, then, and only then, can you bring Thor to the table.

You have, only what YOU have, and I have only what I have.

And then we see who has the better hand.

I'm not afraid of judgment. I'm more concerned about cellulite than I am about being judged. Do you know why? You have to be a Christian and hold Christian beliefs BEFORE the idea of hell is scary to you. Unless you already ascribe to the belief system, hell is a made up place.

Ah I see that you do Grasp this. That is Good, but have you ever pondered, if God was real?

What if this whole Christian thing was Real?

That's unfortunate. I don't believe in Jesus and I have a degree in social work.
As an atheist, and a humanist, helping my fellow man is my highest priority.

Pity.

I'm sorry that you have such a poor view of yourself.
In my experience, if you were a good person as a Christian you would continue to be a good person without being religious.

Maybe, but to make a truly Evil person do Good things, takes Religion.

To make a Good person do Evil things takes only persuasion.

Now that's an interesting statement.
I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a huge secular movement these days, many people are breaking free of god belief because there is simply no empirical evidence for the existence of a deity. Do you have some?

That would be a debate, and because this is not a debate forum, all I can say is, Yes.

Hence why I am a Christian now days.

God Bless

Key

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I believe your issue here is that you are looking for something that is not there and now trying to make the data fit the hypothesis.

My hypothesis is that people who believe in god will continue to believe regardless of evidence to the contrary because NOT believing in god is painful or detrimental to them.

I've already done a massive survey that proves my original hypothesis, I was just looking for some good quotes from Christians.

See, the problem that arises with questions like this, is not how it makes people feel or what emotions are attached to these feelings of loss, in the case of many Christians, the Loss of not only their salvation, but also the relationship they have built with God and Jesus is not something they wish to ponder. Just as I would not ask you to ponder the idea if your parents died tomorrow, how would that make you feel? Or if you found out that your parents hated you and never wanted you in the first place, how would that make you feel? These are not questions that people like to ponder.

It's not something I 'like to ponder', but I can tell you how my parents dying would make me feel.
I'd be a hysterical mess.
See? Not hard.

But, keep in mind, this is a common question asked by many Atheist, for what motive other then to stir emotions, I have no clue.

I've never seen another atheist ask this question.

However, to a converted Christian, this question is futile, and pointless, as we do not have to ponder anything, but simply recall what our life was like before we came to Christ, there is no "Suppose" as we where like that, many of the converted Christians on this form where Former Atheist, since they lived your supposed question, they know for a fact what they felt like with out God in their lives.

Then why is it so hard for me to get a straight answer?

I myself am a former Atheist, so, for me, to answer this question, is pointless, I know what the answer is, so as such, I can have no fear in either direction.

Former atheists puzzle me.
Why were you an atheist?
Were you raised atheist?
What forced you to become christian?

Now here is a fun twist, since you are asking people to ponder things, and provide an answer, and since you are a psychology student, maybe you can ponder the following, and provide us an answer.

Suppose God is real, how would that make you feel? Would you feel fear?

Is that a question you ponder?

I've pondered it, yes, but I see no reason to believe in the existence of the Christian god over the other thousands of gods that have been said to exist.
I don't believe anything with empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence does NOT include the bible OR personal experiences.
If there was a god and he somehow managed to prove to me that he was real then no, I wouldn't be afraid. Because then I wouldn't be an atheist.

Maybe you might want to write a Thesis on that direction, how would it make a person without Religious conviction feel to ponder if they were wrong.

Here's the thing.
I, and all of my atheist friends are not concerned in the slightest as to whether or not we're 'wrong'. In order to fear the Christian god, you have to believe in it first, just as a child isn't afraid of monsters until they've been told about them.

As it stands for any Christian, we win, either way, if God is real, we go to heaven, and a blissful eternity. We win.

Pascal's Wager.
Again.

If God is not real, we lived a good life, found a way to overcome our vices and problems, used "god" to help us overcome our problems and obstacles in our lives and all in all we lived a far better and more gratifying life then we may have had as non-believers. We have found a way to overcome self centered ideals, and turn our lives around and make a better world for those around us, and our selves. all in all, We win.

Are you implying that Christians are happier, healthier and more likely to do good things than non-believers? That's quite the assertation.

Now an Atheist does not have this Win/Win situation, as such, they would have something to loose, if they were wrong. A Christian, does not. So you might get better results by asking them the question in the opposing direction, maybe start with yourself.

Pascal's Wager.
Maybe you better start asking yourself what happens if YOU'RE wrong about Allah, or Zeus, or Odin....because if you ARE, they're gonna be super mad at you worshiping some false god.
And there's an EQUALLY LIKELY chance that they are the true god.


Does anyone here have an argument for god that doesn't include Pascal's Wager?

Guys, really, Pascal's Wager is super lame.
When an argument has been repeated so many times that its got its own Wikipedia page, maybe it's time to find a new one.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I am aware of this, and frankly, I think that your conception of freedom and mine are very different.
And no, I do not have empirical evidence.
I am not sure that it is possible to have such.
And I speak as one who spent many years searching for such evidence.
But - I do have a relationship with God.
So either He is really there, or I have lost my mind.

I would argue against the 'losing your mind part' and argue for the idea that you have a personal reason to believe in a god and therefore construct one for yourself.

The mind is an amazing tool.

 

[ContentInHim]

It's both, but it's kind of rhetorical.

God offers you eternal life with him in heaven, everyone knows that.

I ask that question so I can ask a second, better question,

If it's rhetorical, why are you debating?

 

[ContentInHim]

I would argue against the 'losing your mind part' and argue for the idea that you have a personal reason to believe in a god and therefore construct one for yourself.

The mind is an amazing tool.

I did not construct a god for me - God found me through the person of Jesus Christ and I am organically changed from the person I was before I knew Him. You can debate all you like about believers being illogical, but you cannot challenge my belief since you are not me!

 

[MaragonEvolved]

True, they are different, one is an Affirmation, the other is Evidence. They do not have anything in common.

As for "I know all about Christianity" that I highly doubt, as any Christian will tell you, you never truly stop learning, if you do, or feel that you have learned it all, then you never really learned anything to start with.

I feel there is little more that I personally can learn from Christianity.

This is not true.

Uh. yeah, it is.
Show me ONE religion that says 'our god ISN'T the "real" god but we worship him anyways'.
You'll never find one.
Every religion thinks that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

So?

So why should we believe you over them?
They have just as much evidence for their side as you do.

True, but you as a person that knows "All about Christianity" should know the aspect of Pascals Wager better then to bring that up.
Unless the case is, you do not grasp the nature of the wager in the first place.
Allow me to explain, each person, that would be, You and I, sit at a table, we both go "All In" you put down what YOU have, and I put down what I have. As such, in this game, Allah, Zeus, Thor, and the others do not matter, as you do not bring them to the table, because you do not believe in them. If you believed in Thor, and devoted your life to Thor, then, and only then, can you bring Thor to the table.
You have, only what YOU have, and I have only what I have.
And then we see who has the better hand.

No, I grasp it, and I assure you that Pascal's Wager is the WORST argument for Christianity that has ever been postured.

You don't seem to grasp it however.
This isn't about what you're bringing to the table.

A more accurate analogy would be that there's thousands of cards spread out on a table, one for every god who was ever said to exist. They're all face down. In your hand you have ONE card, the Jesus card. Okay, now flip over ONE card, and if it matches the Jesus card, you win, if not, guess you were wrong.

You're an atheist in regards to every god except one. And when you understand why you disbelieve in Thor and Odin and Allah, you'll understand why I don't believe in Jesus.

Ah I see that you do Grasp this. That is Good, but have you ever pondered, if God was real?

What if this whole Christian thing was Real?

Sure have.
Ever pondered if Allah was real?
If the whole Muslim thing was Real?

Pity.

YOU pity me because I've devoted my life to caring for my fellow man? 0o

Maybe, but to make a truly Evil person do Good things, takes Religion.
To make a Good person do Evil things takes only persuasion.

I know lots of evil religious people.
And lots of good non-christians who could never be persuaded to do evil to their fellow man.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

If it's rhetorical, why are you debating?

The question is rhetorical, not the debate.

 

[ContentInHim]

I pity you because your "logical" mind is closed to the idea that you are not supreme in your universe.

 

[ContentInHim]

Then you were perhaps not aware that there is to be NO debate in this forum. Perhaps you would be more satisfied with responses in the General Apologetics area.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I did not construct a god for me - God found me through the person of Jesus Christ and I am organically changed from the person I was before I knew Him. You can debate all you like about believers being illogical, but you cannot challenge my belief since you are not me!

I didn't call anyone illogical.
I don't want to challenge your belief, I want to analyze it.

 

[MaragonEvolved]

I pity you because your "logical" mind is closed to the idea that you are not supreme in your universe.

I don't believe I am supreme, I would say that the egocentric view falls on the theist, not the atheist.

And I'm not debating, I'm asking and answering questions for clarification.

You can see what I mean here.

 

[ContentInHim]

I don't believe I am supreme, I would say that the egocentric view falls on the theist, not the atheist.

And I'm not debating, I'm asking and answering questions for clarification.

You can see what I mean here.

OK, sure, whatever you say!