I don't understand...

[oi_antz]

Some of the greatest scientists of the last two centuries have been theists.

Selah.

Can you name a few that you have in mind? Thanks.

 

[chrisstavrous]

If God exists and he slaughtered those people, then you'd better get on his good side, for who are you to question when the creator of all chooses to kill or save? Can the creation say to the creator "you're wrong!"? If God does not exist then he didn't slaughter anyone.

We talked about this allready from post #46. Back in those posts you defended that christianity was not a cult of fear, now here you are proving it.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Examples please.

Once we move on from the current topic I will post more examples.

 

[chrisstavrous]

You didn't answer my question. Your response is a deflection that merely vents antipathy toward the Christian worldview. So, again, why couldn't God stop any planetary body from moving if He wished? Certainly, a God who could create a universe does not lack the power to do so, right? Why, then, is it so hard to acknowledge this?

This is a rigged question by defult the believer will always win, but only if you concede that an all powerful being exsits in the first place (which I dont) But that line of questioning can work equally as well if say you were asking it as a mormon or jehova witness.

See, here you aren't even trying to understand what I'm saying. You haven't the least interest in acknowledging that it is entirely possible that the Creator of the universe could exert control over any of its parts. You simply made your response an opportunity to insinuate the worst thing you could about the God of the Bible. This is not respectful to me, a believer in God, and it exposes how little you actually desire to understand the Christian viewpoint.

I was a christian for 13 years, I believed that the bible was the literal word of god the same as you. I do understand (or used to understand) what you are saying and have been saying throughout this whole thread.

How do you know what God does each day to protect people from harm? There are nearly 7 billion people on the planet today. Are you aware of all that God may be doing for them through each day to keep them safe from injury or disease? I don't see how. You make a massive negative assumption here that speaks volumes about your hatred of the God Christians worship and serve. This forum is for people who don't know God to come and discuss their struggles with Christians and obtain spiritual support from them. Clearly, this is not your purpose in posting here.

Well shock is the first thing you have to deal with when you deprgram, then next is anger but the anger does go away. These are all natural responses to being deceived for years.

 

[chrisstavrous]

As for taking the Bible literally, some parts are literal and some parts are symbolic, but in the strictest sense neither is the case with the story about the sun. That's why I gave you the example of the sun setting and rising. To say the sun stopped in the sky is simply the best way to describe what happened, whether it is scientifically accurate or not. That's why I said this is not a science lesson. This is about describing what happened.

How do you ascertain whats literal and not literal, what kind of realistic methodology do christians have to test whats what.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Again, you're not thinking through what you're saying. How much does love weigh? Is integrity hard or soft? Is courage heavy or light? Can you boil love in a test tube? Can you weigh courage on a scale? None of these things are directly accessible to scientific evaluation yet they all exist. You may observe the results of love, integrity and courage, you see these things expressed in the conduct of other people (and perhaps in your own) but you can't taste courage, or smell integrity, or hold love in your hands and study it. Regardless, no one denies that these things exist. And if they can exist as intangible things, things inaccessible to empirical testing, why can't God?

Selah.

Love is only a chemical reaction within the brain, are you saying that the feeling of love is not being being produced by the brain?

 

[chrisstavrous]

Our mind is what our brain does for us. Simple.

The number 7 does not exist scientifically.


There are really only small amounts of atheist turned theist. Plenty of priest and pastors have turned atheist because of science.

I understand. Example would be when we once thought the world just sorta popped into exist. Now we have the big bang theory. So many Christian changed there ideas and said "Well science doesn't know what caused the big bang. Therefore God!!!!"

You are so smart snake, I am still learning lots from you.

 

[aiki]

Our mind is what our brain does for us. Simple.

As I said, if you want to discuss this intelligently with me you need first to acquaint yourself with Mind-Body Dualism. Your statement here is simplistic and thoughtless atheist propaganda.

The number 7 does not exist scientifically.

LOL! I have no idea what this means. Are you saying the number 7 does not exist?

There are really only small amounts of atheist turned theist. Plenty of priest and pastors have turned atheist because of science.

My point wasn't about how many people are or are not giving up their atheism or religion. I mentioned Antony Flew as an example of how the increase in scientific information does not marginalize God, as you assert, but reveals Him.

I understand. Example would be when we once thought the world just sorta popped into exist. Now we have the big bang theory. So many Christian changed there ideas and said "Well science doesn't know what caused the big bang. Therefore God!!!!"

But thoughtful Christians don't argue this way. First of all, no one has ever seriously thought that the universe just popped into existence. This is an obviously ridiculous belief. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit." Out of nothing, nothing comes. For a very long time now Christian philosophers have understood that the existence of the universe speaks to a First Cause of it. This thinking is summed as follows:

1.) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.) The universe began to exist (ala the Big Bang).
3.) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

This isn't an argument that says "Science can't explain the existence of the universe so God did it." No, science doesn't come into the argument in any primary way at all. The argument is a purely deductive argument that is only supported by science secondarily. This is the case for many of the arguments Christians put forward in defense of their faith.

Why are you so fearful of the idea that Christians may be right about God? Why are you eager to argue a topic that you are so obviously ill-equipped to argue?

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Can you name a few that you have in mind? Thanks.

Michael Faraday
Gregor Mendel
Guglielmo Marconi
William Thomson Kelvin
Max Planck
Louis Pasteur
John Eccles
Francis Collins

Selah.

 

[Snake75]

Ok. I will admit it. I am way in over my head. You have what 38 years of studying? I have only been for less then a year. But, I am not in fear. I know Christian ideas are not right. I just can't debate properly.

 

[chrisstavrous]

As I said, if you want to discuss this intelligently with me you need first to acquaint yourself with Mind-Body Dualism. Your statement here is simplistic and thoughtless atheist propaganda.

I have not heard of that before, I will wiki it. Oh and i'm slowly reading reasonable faith.

LOL! I have no idea what this means. Are you saying the number 7 does not exist?

Like god, have you ever seen a real living 7.

My point wasn't about how many people are or are not giving up their atheism or religion. I mentioned Antony Flew as an example of how the increase in scientific information does not marginalize God, as you assert, but reveals Him.

Yes I agree here but any science that could shed light on a creator will stand on its own evidence rather than the experience and faith of the scientist.

But thoughtful Christians don't argue this way. First of all, no one has ever seriously thought that the universe just popped into existence. This is an obviously ridiculous belief. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit." Out of nothing, nothing comes. For a very long time now Christian philosophers have understood that the existence of the universe speaks to a First Cause of it. This thinking is summed as follows:

1.) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.) The universe began to exist (ala the Big Bang).
3.) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Hmm no, the universe has always been here it just keeps changing from one form of energy to another. When you postulate a first cause you create a infinite regress

This isn't an argument that says "Science can't explain the existence of the universe so God did it." No, science doesn't come into the argument in any primary way at all. The argument is a purely deductive argument that is only supported by science secondarily. This is the case for many of the arguments Christians put forward in defense of their faith.

So why do christians try and deconstruct scientific findings if there aim is not to create doubt, then from there slip their own theology into the doubters mind?

 

[chrisstavrous]

Ok. I will admit it. I am way in over my head. You have what 38 years of studying? I have only been for less then a year. But, I am not in fear. I know Christian ideas are not right. I just can't debate properly.

I also lack many years of learning, but because of a 13 year faith black out.

The deep end is always scary untill you jump in.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Can you name a few that you have in mind? Thanks.

Francis Collins, head of the human genome project, for one.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Our mind is what our brain does for us. Simple.

The number 7 does not exist scientifically.


There are really only small amounts of atheist turned theist. Plenty of priest and pastors have turned atheist because of science.

I understand. Example would be when we once thought the world just sorta popped into exist. Now we have the big bang theory. So many Christian changed there ideas and said "Well science doesn't know what caused the big bang. Therefore God!!!!"

What is the Big Bang other than the world just popping up?

Do you realize that for the first few minutes of our universe all that existed was light?

 

[LastSeven]

We talked about this allready from post #46. Back in those posts you defended that christianity was not a cult of fear, now here you are proving it.

You misunderstand my point. I clearly chose my words poorly because Christianity has nothing to do with fear.

I was trying to make the point that if you don't believe he exists, then God did not slaughter anybody, but if you do believe he exists then how can you continue to ignore him? If you believe he exists then you must believe he is the creator of all and worthy of glory and honour and respect.

 

[LastSeven]

How do you ascertain whats literal and not literal, what kind of realistic methodology do christians have to test whats what.

Unfortunately there is great division amongst Christians as to what should be taken literally and what not.

All events recorded in both the old and new testament are simply written accounts of real events. These are to be taken as literal and we all agree on that. Writings of unfulfilled prophecy are where people tend to disagree.

The old testament is primarily stories of a physical race of people trying to be worthy of God's kingdom and earn salvation by their own means. The new testament introduces a new plan that is salvation through grace and introduces the concept of a spiritual kingdom of which all believers are members.

Knowing this then, when looking at unfulfilled prophecy we know that it pertains to the future which means it pertains to God's spiritual kingdom, since the physical kingdom has passed away. This makes symbolism much easier to spot. All of Revelation for example is written in symbolic language and describes events to take place from the time of the cross to the end. Not all Christians will agree with me on this point.

Fulfilled prophecy on the other hand, can be easily determined to be either literal or symbolic since we can look back on history and see how those prophecies were fulfilled.

 

[Snake75]

What is the Big Bang other than the world just popping up
Do you realize that for the first few minutes of our universe all that existed was light?

I don't really understand what your saying..

Basically your saying the world just popped up in exist in the big bang theory? No, it took billions of years. Its the creationist idea that basically says the world just popped up because of some deity.

Umm Ok?

 

[LastSeven]

Ghost:No, Aliens: Possible, Out of body:No, Poltergeist:No, Talking to Dead:No, Mind reading: No, Near Death experiences: Of course.

I have heard them. Your brain does amazing things. Havnt you heard of dreaming?

When I say "near death experience" I mean experiences where people actually die, experience things while they're dead and then come back to life. Surely you've heard of such stories.

For example, a woman died in hospital and was revived 20 minutes later. After she regained consciousness she explained that when she died she floated up out of the room and outside the hospital where she saw a blue shoe in the gutter on the top floor of the hospital. There was no way anybody could've seen the shoe unless they were on the roof or floating above, but it turned out that she was right. The custodial staff went up on the roof and retrieved the blue shoe from the gutter just as she had described.

There are literally millions such stories around the world, of people seeing things or learning things while they're dead that they could not possibly have seen or learned otherwise.

In this case obviously the woman was not dreaming about a blue shoe because the shoe actually existed.

In other cases people die and go to heaven and meet grand parents who they had never known or siblings who had died in the womb that they didn't know existed. Then they come back and identify people they saw in heaven by description and confirming them by looking at pictures and even knowing names and other facts that they could otherwise not have known.

How do you explain such things?

 

[Snake75]

When I say "near death experience" I mean experiences where people actually die, experience things while they're dead and then come back to life. Surely you've heard of such stories.

For example, a woman died in hospital and was revived 20 minutes later. After she regained consciousness she explained that when she died she floated up out of the room and outside the hospital where she saw a blue shoe in the gutter on the top floor of the hospital. There was no way anybody could've seen the shoe unless they were on the roof or floating above, but it turned out that she was right. The custodial staff went up on the roof and retrieved the blue shoe from the gutter just as she had described.

There are literally millions such stories around the world, of people seeing things or learning things while they're dead that they could not possibly have seen or learned otherwise.

In this case obviously the woman was not dreaming about a blue shoe because the shoe actually existed.

In other cases people die and go to heaven and meet grand parents who they had never known or siblings who had died in the womb that they didn't know existed. Then they come back and identify people they saw in heaven by description and confirming them by looking at pictures and even knowing names and other facts that they could otherwise not have known.

How do you explain such things?

Well, I don't know. Science is only beginning to understand it.

Here is a link to what is currently believes happens
Surge of brain activity may explain near-death experience, study says - The Washington Post

 

[LastSeven]

Of course brain activity can not explain the shoe in the gutter, nor millions of other cases of people learning things while dead that they could otherwise not know.

I found this site that has tons of documented cases of near death experiences and I've read through some of it. So far what I've read jives with other things I've learned over the years. You can find many more by doing a simple Google search.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

If you take the time to read some of these stories I think you'll find that they tell a consistent story and that it is impossible for all of these accounts to be due to surges in brain activity, dreams or fables. These things are really happening.

And by the way, all of these eyewitness accounts of people having died and gone to heaven are evidence of an all powerful god and the afterlife, though you claim there is no such evidence. Whether you believe the evidence or not, is up to you, but to be honest the evidence is so overwhelming that you'd be a fool to dismiss it.