I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

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Never2Heavy

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1 Timothy 2:8-15
NIV
"8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."



Are we to take these verses literally? Or how far should we (The body of Christ) take this?

Regards,
Mike
 

lands21

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I believe that Men are required to be spiritual leaders in there house, and that they will be held accountable for there wifes, sons, and daughter's sins.

If a women is a pastor in a church, that may causes problems at home.

I believe a wife must trust that God will work through her husband, and therefore be submisive to him.
 
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wonder111

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Never2Heavy said:
1 Timothy 2:8-15
NIV
"8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."



Are we to take these verses literally? Or how far should we (The body of Christ) take this?

Regards,
Mike

well it seems some take some parts literally, and not the rest. What about women covering their heads in church. And I think I've seen women wearing pearls and expensive clothes to church.
 
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filosofer

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wonder111 said:
well it seems some take some parts literally, and not the rest. What about women covering their heads in church. And I think I've seen women wearing pearls and expensive clothes to church.

You raise some good issues: how to interpret a passage and then how to apply the passage in the present context.

Interpretation
For interpreting the passage, we have to ask several questions of the text (since the author is not available). Is there a principle that the author (in this case, Paul) establishes that has enduring significance and application? What is the basis of this principle? How is that principle demonstrated in the current context of the author/reader?

Application
Only when the interpretation (what the text meant then) is established, can we proceed to the application. In other words, how is the principle applied in our present situation? Will it necessarily be the same as the first century? Does our practice build upon that principle?

Rather than answer these questions right now, we can go to the text and let the text "speak" on its own terms.

You also demonstrate confusion that many have when using the word "literally." Usually, what people mean in such a discussion by "literally" is "literalistically." That is, the person claims to "take the text at facevalue - no symbolic meaning accepted." Here are some helpful principles when interpreting:


Observe the Intended Meaning
The first principle is to take the words of Scripture in their normal, intended sense unless the context compels us to understand the words figuratively which then becomes the intended sense.

Let Scripture Interpret Scripture
This principle refers to the fact that passages dealing with the same topic can be used to explain and support each other. It means that the less clear and more difficult passages of the Bible are to be considered in the light of the clearer passages.

Observe the Law of Context
This principle warns the interpreter never to tear a passage out of the context in which it appears. Always explain the parts in the light of the whole.

Interpret Scripture in Harmony with Itself
This principle asserts that all of Scripture is a unity because God is the author of both the Old and New Testaments. No passage should be understood in a way that contradicts another clear statement of Scripture.

Interpret Scripture Christologically
This principle states that the entire Scripture must be seen in the light of God’s redeeming activity in Jesus Christ. Christ is not only the center of Scripture, he is the purpose of Scripture.
 
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jhessel

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The way to interpret the Bible is to read it the way it is and not change the words to fit your liking.

political correctness has no place in the Bible. God has given authority to man to be the leader of the household and protect his family, but do not think that this makes woman into a lesser role. There is no more important roles than what a woman is responsible for (giving birth, raising children)

if you will start listening to the satanic feminist who wear mullets and want women to hate men and want women to be lesbians and not take showers that is your choice. Just know that God loves you while the corrupt people around you don't have the best intentions for you. God does.
 
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wonder111

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jhessel said:
The way to interpret the Bible is to read it the way it is and not change the words to fit your liking.

political correctness has no place in the Bible. God has given authority to man to be the leader of the household and protect his family, but do not think that this makes woman into a lesser role. There is no more important roles than what a woman is responsible for (giving birth, raising children)

if you will start listening to the satanic feminist who wear mullets and want women to hate men and want women to be lesbians and not take showers that is your choice. Just know that God loves you while the corrupt people around you don't have the best intentions for you. God does.

Oh wow! where to begin, lol! at the mullet wearing lesbian feminists. If we read the bible the way it is, and not in it's context, then we shouldn't be wearing clothing with 2 different fabrics, right? Or are you speaking about Paul's instructions?
 
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filosofer

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kiwimac said:
This was a command at a particular time to a particular church not a generic one for all time and all places.

Kiwimac
Okay, let's examine this. Paul is definitely writing to Timothy, a specific pastor in the first century. But notice that when Paul gives the instruction in 2:91-5, the basis for his position is what happened with Adam and Eve in the beginning right after creation.

13-15 For it was Adam who was first created, then Eve. And not Adam was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.

Note that this reference moves Paul's discussion outside of the first century, in fact, with Adam and Eve this becomes transcultural. So, here we are faced with the issue of an enduring principle, namely headship. Now the question arises: how does Paul present that in the context of the first century? Actually his application is found in 1 Cor. 11, concerning the head covering for the woman. Thus, the principle of headship is established, but put into practice in the first century in that region by means of a head covering. For a women to be uncovered at that time was a sign of sexual promiscuity, and ultimately of rebellion. For the Christian women of that time, a head covering was indicative of her submission.

But before we fall all over ourselves getting upset about that concept, let's be sure that we understand what it is, and what it is not. But that will wait for another post. :)
 
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1John5:3

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“Let Your Women Keep Silence in the Churches.”

June 26, 1866 editorial by Uriah Smith, editor

Whether or not a woman has a right to take part in the public worship of God, has been with many, a serious question on account of the one declaration of Paul, found in 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35, of which the heading to this article forms a part, and which has been supposed to refer to this subject. The whole passage as follows: “’Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
Taken independently of its connection, and in a general sense, it is not strange perhaps that this passage should suggest itself to some minds as a prohibition of any public participation in the worship of God on the part of females. Taken however in connection with the other instruction of the apostle with which it stands, and in view of the part assigned to females in other portions of the word of God, the evidence is to our mind conclusive that it is not designed so to teach.

1. In spiritual matters, women have, in almost every age of the world, had an important part to act. Go back about thirteen hundred years before Christ, and we find Deborah a judge of Israel. She was a prophetess; and Israel sought to her for judgement, and received counsel and instruction at her hand. Judges 4:4-9.

2. About seven hundred years after this, another prophetess appears in the record, 2 Kings 22:14-20. When Hilkiah, the high priest, found the book of the law which had lain for long years concealed in the house of the Lord, and had caused it to be read before Josiah, the king; the king rent his clothes, and sent the high priest with others to Huldah, the prophetess, to inquire of the Lord concerning this matter. And the Lord gave to the king and people through her, a fearful threatening of the overthrow of Jerusalem on account of the sins which had been committed.

3. We come down to the birth of Christ, and there we find another prophetess acting a conspicuous part in the public worship of God. When the infant Saviour was brought into the temple, Anna, a prophetess, “coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.” Luke 2:36-38. Here we have an instance of a woman’s publicly teaching in the temple, and giving instruction to all them who were looking for redemption in the city of Jerusalem.

4. In the great prophecy concerning the spiritual features of the present dispensation, Joel 2:28, 29, daughters as well as sons, handmaids as well as servants, were mentioned as those upon whom the Spirit should be poured, and through whom its operations should be manifested. Now can we suppose that Paul would give directions concerning the same subject, to apply at the same time, and lay down a rule which would completely cut off the prophecy of Joel from fulfillment on the part of the daughters and handmaids? Certainly not.

5. We read in Acts 21:8, 9, of Philip, the evangelist, one of the seven, who had four daughters who did prophesy. Paul and his company came into his house in the year A.D. 60, one year after he had written to the Corinthians to have their women keep silence in the churches; but we do not read that he uttered any rebuke, or urged any protest, against their following their calling, and speaking to the disciples, to their edification and comfort.

6. Paul, in Romans 16, A.D. 60, mentions Phebe as a servant of the church, Priscilla as one of his helpers in Christ Jesus, Tryphena and Tryphosa, as those who labored in the Lord, and Persis as one who labored much in the Lord, all women and fellow-helpers of the apostle. In Acts 18, 26, we read further of Priscilla, that in connection with her husband Aquila, she took Apollos and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly—a woman expounding the way of the Lord, and that too to a no less renowned personage than the eloquent Apollos. In Philippians 4:3, Paul speaks of other of his sisters in the church as follows: “And I entreat thee, also, true yokefellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlaborers, whose names are in the book of life.” Here are women mentioned as laboring with Paul in the gospel, and whom he ranks with Clement, as his fellow-laborers. Can we suppose that these women were altogether silent in the churches?

7. In chapter 11:5, in this same epistle to the Corinthians, Paul gives directions how the women should be attired while praying or prophesying in the public congregation, or “when they were come together in the church.” Verse 18. In verse 4 he says, “Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, dishonoreth his head.” Then he proceeds to give directions in regard to the women, “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered, dishonoreth her head.” Here praying and prophesying are allotted to the woman no less than to the man. In chapter 14:3, he tells us what it is to prophesy: “He that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification and exhortation and comfort.” In this way then it was designed by the apostle that women should speak in the church. There is no evading this conclusion; and the way some attempt to avoid it, is a little singular. Commentators of high standing, to save their position on chapter 14:34, that women should take no part in the public worship of God, explain Paul’s language in chapter 11:5, in reference to women’s praying or prophesying, by saying that Paul here “gave directions how it should be done, provided any such thing were allowable; but he did not mean to intimate that women ever would pray or prophesy; and in chapter 14, 34, he expressly forbids it.” We may be sure that the apostle indulges in no such trifling.

8. No one will certainly contend that Paul excludes females from being members of the church. Yet in chapter 14:23, 24, he speaks about the whole church being come together, and all speaking with tongues, and all prophesying. This would include the sisters equally with the brethren.

We are thus brought to the question, What does Paul then mean by the language? “Let your women keep silence in the churches?” From the evidence thus far presented, we can take our stand positively on what he does not mean. He does not mean taking such public part in the service of God, as that of which we have such prominent examples in both the Old and New Testaments. He does not mean to cut off the prophecy of Joel from a great part of its fulfillment. He does not mean to contradict his own directions expressed in chapter 6:5. Hence he does not mean to forbid any kind of public exercise by which “edification, exhortation or comfort” is given to the church. If he does not mean any of these things, then there is a positive contradiction between Paul, and other sacred writers, and between Paul and Paul; which Bible believers will not be ready to admit; and if he does not mean any of these things, then his language is far removed from furnishing any objection to women’s taking part in the public worship of God, as conducted at the present day.

The question still remains, What does the language mean? On this point we may not be able to arrive at so definite conclusions, as on the inquiry, what it does not mean; but there are grounds for certain inferences, which are both fair and necessary.

1. Paul is correcting wrongs and irregularities that existed in the Corinthian church. There were occasions when it was improper even for the men to speak. See verses 27-30. We may justly infer therefore that what he says in reference to the women, is of the same nature, and that the speaking he refers to is that which would be out of order, and cause confusion in the church.

2. The antithesis of the command, “Let your women keep silence in the churches,” is expressed in these words: “But they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” This shows that the speaking which is prohibited, is of that kind which would show that they were not under obedience. But what is meant by being under obedience? The Scriptures represent, that a subordinate position, in a certain sense, is assigned to the woman, for the reasons that she was formed from the man, and at a subsequent time, was first in transgression. 1 Corinthians 11:8, 1 Timothy 2:13, 14. The leadership and authority is vested in the man. “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” Genesis 3:16. This order is not to be reversed, and the woman take the position which has been assigned to the man; and every action on her part which shows that she is usurping this authority, is disorderly, and not to be allowed. Hence Paul says plainly to Timothy, 1 Timothy 2:12, “But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” There is no doubt but it was the very same point, the usurping of authority over the man, that the same apostle had in view in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

3. The following remarks from Dr. Clarke, doubtless convey the true idea: “It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, &c. in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian church; he orders them to keep silence; and if they wished to learn anything, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men, in public assemblies on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, &c. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary she was to obey it; and the apostle lays down directions in chap. ix, for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, &c. in the Christian church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, &c. of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.” On the words, “It is a shame for women to speak in the church,” he says, “The apostle refers to irregular conduct as proved that they were not under obedience.”

That it was some such irregularity which the apostle was combating in the Corinthian church, appears further from the challenge he gives them in verse 36: “What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only?” That is, did Christianity originate with you? Or are you the only church that has received the true light, that things should be tolerated in your midst which are not allowed in other churches?

Such being the nature of the things prohibited by the apostle, who can say that he has any reference to such testimony as faithful Christian women bear when they rise to speak a word for the Lord and his truth, to the strengthening of themselves, and the comfort, edification, and encouragement of all the church?
 
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Serapha

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Never2Heavy said:
1 Timothy 2:8-15
NIV
"8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."



Are we to take these verses literally? Or how far should we (The body of Christ) take this?

Regards,
Mike
Hi there!


:wave:


Well, since the beginning of time, men have seemed to look at the external woman in seeking qualities. After all, in Genesis, God made man (`asah) in an original, creating sense, but God made (banah) woman meaning God shaped and formed the woman.

The woman was made for the man and given to him (Gen 3:12) and that concept is simply thrown out the window by many people.

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.


In other words, Paul is stating that women should not do the usual thing... "prissy up" the outside for appeal because God isn't going to look at the outward woman (thanks goodness, Amen!). God is going to look on the heart.


11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.



The role of the woman needs to be established. She is to be submissive to her husband. It is never commanded that the wife is to love the husband. She is to honor him. The commandment to the woman is the same as the man, that being to love God first. If she loves God, she will do as God has commanded her to do, that being to submit to the husband's instruction, love, and provision. If you love someone, you want to be with them, you dress to please them, you act to please them, and you talk to please them. If a woman follows the first commandment which is to love God, then she will want to be with Him (in prayer), she will dress to please Him (in modest apparel), she will act to please Him (in submission), and she will talk to please Him (silence in the church).



Now, let me just exit and avoid the fireworks.



~makala~
 
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sandman

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I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church {note: when I use the word church I am speaking of the ekklesia the called of God, the body of Christ, not a structure.} Therefore when reading this book we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy as well as I Corinthians 14:34 {dealing with the wives of the prophets} you have cultural standards that come into play.

Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching, and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 3:1 which is the more immediate context of these verses; ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word.


I Timothy 2:9-15

I Timothy 2:9 In like manner or “likewise”. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what it’s referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace “lifting up holy hands” is a Figure of speech meaning “To have done all that can be done” speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.

The word also is not in any critical Greek text.

That women (Gr) gunê = wives – henceforth, the word woman is translated wives

adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos” It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of God’s creation; that’s this word “adorn.”

{Other usages of kosmeo Luke 21:5, Titus 2:10, I Peter 3:3-5}

in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly {that’s probably not a real word} meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.

{I Timothy 3: 2 “of good behavior” is the same word as kosmios}

With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.

Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing it’s the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.

not – is conditional due to culture…. the walk of a woman would vary.

broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin. ouch!

Verse 10

But – Sets in contrast that which was preceding {broided hair, etc}

which becoumeth women – wives of the men of God

professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self

godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that you’re a knock out, or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.

with good works – This greek preposition indicates “with” as all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, that’s “the good works.”

Verse 11


Let the woman = wife of the man of God.

learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.

in silence (Gr) hesuchia means – inner awareness, a quietness, tranquillity. It’s just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about “wives of the men of God”. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.

with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.


Verse 12



but is the word “and”

i suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct

not a woman = wives


to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. It’s used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scriprure. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. {God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.}

nor = and not {emphatic}

to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.

the man = husband

but to be in silence – same word as in verse 11. the inner awareness.


Verse 13

For Adam was first formed then Eve – Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesn’t degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.

Verse 14


And Adam was not deceived

But the woman {wife} being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. God’s just saying, look things haven’t changed, the advisary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia {that inner awareness} is so vitally important in a woman’s walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.


was in the

transgression – stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasn’t deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.



Verse 15

Notwithstanding = but

She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,

in = through

childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she {the wife} shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.

If they - The husband and wife.

Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.

Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from God’s word.

And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. It’s a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in it’s fullest conceivable form, and beyond.

And holyness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.

With sobriety – with a dignified discreet walk.




+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

God bless
sandman
 
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