Little Known Facts about 1 Timothy 2:9-10

[Derf]

Go ahead. Try me. I dare you.

Find any logical, hermeneutical, exegetical, or historical flaw in my treatment of the text.

I already found flaws in what you posted so far. Why would I need to look for more?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Tell me, @Derf ...

How does nude baptism as practiced by the early church (and for the next 300-400 years) fit into your perspective about the shame of nakedness?

Yes, that is a historical fact. Don't just take my word on it, do your own research.

The Jews had a ritual bath/baptism called the mikveh. It was required for any ritual cleansing, including the cleansing of a woman after her monthly cycle.

The mikveh was also required for a proselyte who was "changing religions" as it were, following Yahweh.

Two significant mikveh baths are mentioned in the Bible... Siloam and Bethesda. They were large, close to the temple, and quite public.

The mikveh has always required complete nudity... and still does even today!

John the Baptist practiced this baptism; Jesus and His disciples did too, undoubtedly... for why would they as Jews utilize any other mode of baptism than the mikveh, which was already well established within the Jewish faith and tradition as an expression of repentance, faith, cleansing, and a desire to renew one's commitment to following God?

So when the church was established at Pentecost, the church simply adopted the mikveh as the Christian mode of baptism.

This is all a matter of the historical record. You can confirm it yourself.

So... how does that fit your understanding of nakedness?

Ok, @Derf , I really want to hear your answer to this question.

@2PhiloVoid , I would welcome your thoughts on this historical fact. I mean, Jesus told us to baptize people. Paul talked about baptism. This is what was in their mind when they said that.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

I already found flaws in what you posted so far. Why would I need to look for more?

I'll tell you why, because you and the other guy on here have been spouting lies about me, claiming that I did not and do not know how to interpret the scriptures. You acted like I'd never done it in my life before.

But that was a lie. A lie, friend. You lied about me, and I gave you proof that it was a lie.

But now you don't even have the gonads to look at the evidence that I've given you that I do know how to interpret the scriptures and I do know how to divide God's word and I do know how to apply hermeneutics to a passage.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't really have any idea how to do it yourself.

You're afraid that if you read what I wrote, you will be exposed as the fraud you seem to be.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

By that, I mean that you won't even try.

I was really hoping that I would have to take these words back, but it seems that I won't have to.

 

[enoob57]

You're welcome to try again.

you mean like
Gen 9:22
Gen 9:23
Gen 9:23
Gen 42:9
Gen 42:12
Ex 20:26
Ex 28:42
Lev 18:6
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:12
Lev 18:13
Lev 18:14
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:18
Lev 18:19
Lev 20:11
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:18
Lev 20:19
Lev 20:20
Lev 20:21
Deut 28:48
1 Sam 20:30
Isa 47:3
Lam 1:8
Ezek 16:8
Ezek 16:36
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 22:10
Ezek 23:10
Ezek 23:18
Ezek 23:29
Hos 2:9
Nah 3:5
Hab 2:15
Rom 8:35
2 Cor 11:27
Rev 3:18
God has a lot to say about nakedness... I suggest you read about it...

 

[Derf]

I'll tell you why, because you and the other guy on here have been spouting lies about me, claiming that I did not and do not know how to interpret the scriptures. You acted like I'd never done it in my life before.

But that was a lie. A lie, friend. You lied about me, and I gave you proof that it was a lie.

But now you don't even have the gonads to look at the evidence that I've given you that I do know how to interpret the scriptures and I do know how to divide God's word and I do know how to apply hermeneutics to a passage.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you don't really have any idea how to do it yourself.

You're afraid that if you read what I wrote, you will be exposed as the fraud you seem to be.

You made a poor first impression, what can I say? Yet you want me to spend more time. I'm happy to do it in the forum, when I have time, but I don't want to go read your treatise after reading what you've posted here. It has nothing to do with you, personally, unless you are defined by your past work more than your present output, in which case, if the past work is better, you seem to be regressing.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

you mean like
Gen 9:22
Gen 9:23
Gen 9:23
Gen 42:9
Gen 42:12
Ex 20:26
Ex 28:42
Lev 18:6
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:12
Lev 18:13
Lev 18:14
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:18
Lev 18:19
Lev 20:11
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:18
Lev 20:19
Lev 20:20
Lev 20:21
Deut 28:48
1 Sam 20:30
Isa 47:3
Lam 1:8
Ezek 16:8
Ezek 16:36
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 22:10
Ezek 23:10
Ezek 23:18
Ezek 23:29
Hos 2:9
Nah 3:5
Hab 2:15
Rom 8:35
2 Cor 11:27
Rev 3:18
God has a lot to say about nakedness... I suggest you read about it...

This is one of the laziest ways I have ever seen anyone try to make an argument... By just listing scripture references.

It might surprise you, but I have indeed studied every single one of those. Have you?

Tell me, why did you skip Isaiah 20?

Does it not fit your narrative? It absolutely talks about nudity, too.

Did you know that there's more than one word in Hebrew that references nudity or nakedness?

Didn't think so. You haven't done the study, I have. Nobody who has done that study would attempt this particular stunt.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

You made a poor first impression, what can I say? Yet you want me to spend more time. I'm happy to do it in the forum, when I have time, but I don't want to go read your treatise after reading what you've posted here. It has nothing to do with you, personally, unless you are defined by your past work more than your present output, in which case, if the past work is better, you seem to be regressing.

You lied about me. You got caught in it. And now you're not even willing to own up to it.

 

[Derf]

Ok, @Derf , I really want to hear your answer to this question.

@2PhiloVoid , I would welcome your thoughts on this historical fact. I mean, Jesus told us to baptize people. Paul talked about baptism. This is what was in their mind when they said that.

Here's my answer: did they stay naked after their baptism?

 

[Derf]

You lied about me. You got caught in it. And now you're not even willing to own up to it.

Can you quote the lie for me?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

you mean like
Gen 9:22
Gen 9:23
Gen 9:23
Gen 42:9
Gen 42:12
Ex 20:26
Ex 28:42
Lev 18:6
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:7
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:8
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:9
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:10
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:11
Lev 18:12
Lev 18:13
Lev 18:14
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:15
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:16
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:17
Lev 18:18
Lev 18:19
Lev 20:11
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:17
Lev 20:18
Lev 20:19
Lev 20:20
Lev 20:21
Deut 28:48
1 Sam 20:30
Isa 47:3
Lam 1:8
Ezek 16:8
Ezek 16:36
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 16:37
Ezek 22:10
Ezek 23:10
Ezek 23:18
Ezek 23:29
Hos 2:9
Nah 3:5
Hab 2:15
Rom 8:35
2 Cor 11:27
Rev 3:18
God has a lot to say about nakedness... I suggest you read about it...

Here you go... I have "read about it"... and I've written about it.

https://mychainsaregone.org/new/articles/Nakedness-in-the-OT.pdf

That document deals with probably most of the references you've provided, plus a lot more.

Do you have any documents that you've written about nakedness in the bible that you could share with me?

Feel free to read this and tell me any errors you find in reason, exegesis, hermaneutics, or context.

 

[enoob57]

This is one of the laziest ways I have ever seen anyone try to make an argument... By just listing scripture references.

It might surprise you, but I have indeed studied every single one of those. Have you?

Tell me, why did you skip Isaiah 20?

Does it not fit your narrative? It absolutely talks about nudity, too.

Did you know that there's more than one word in Hebrew that references nudity or nakedness?

Didn't think so. You haven't done the study, I have. Nobody who has done that study would attempt this particular stunt.

God clearly prohibits nudity in His Word ... it is yours to ignore or twist in your case! The very best thing of God's dealing with us through His Word is on an individual basis ~for we own what we are and will answer to that fact against said Word

 

[enoob57]

Here you go... I have "read about it"... and I've written about it.

https://mychainsaregone.org/new/articles/Nakedness-in-the-OT.pdf

That document deals with probably most of the references you've provided, plus a lot more.

Do you have any documents that you've written about nakedness in the bible that you could share with me?

Feel free to read this and tell me any errors you find in reason, exegesis, hermaneutics, or context.

I have already seen how you twist God's Word ... I don't need to see more!

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Here's my answer: did they stay naked after their baptism?

That's a total bail out.

They were naked at a public religious ceremony... no shame involved!

So why can't you acknowledge that?

Remember the day of Pentecost? 3000 souls baptized in one day. All of them naked in public... nothing shameful about it.

Do you still hold to your preconception that nakedness is shameful? What did you say about trying to defend a belief rather than being interested in the truth?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

God clearly prohibits nudity in His Word ... it is yours to ignore or twist in your case! The very best thing of God's dealing with us through His Word is on an individual basis ~for we own what we are and will answer to that fact against said Word

God clearly prohibits nudity in His Word, huh? That so?

Maybe your commitment to that falsehood is why YOU ignored Isa 20?

Do you even know what it says? How do you twist that to your case?

And again... tell me the BEST verse you know of in all the bible that forbids non-sexual social nudity. Don't just give the reference, but quote it and explain exactly how it forbids social nudity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wow, it is utterly amazing to me that you guys think you have me so figured out. You don't think I've done hermeneutical analysis? You could not be more wrong.

Allow me to send you some links to some of my extensive word studies. Including the one on 1 Timothy 2:9.

I don't think I have you figured out. In fact, I'm under the assumption that everyone here should be straightforward in such a way that I don't have to try to "figure them out."

As for your links---sure, go ahead! That's fine by me. I'd love to know from where (and whom) you're building your interpretive inferences. Transparency in that regard is an aspect of academic accountability.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Already done.

Go ahead... show me ANY error in my treatment of the passage... historically, grammatically, exegetically, hermeneutically, logically.

I do not believe you can show me any errors, because I was very careful and thorough and there aren't any there. Feel free to prove me wrong.

https://mychainsaregone.org/new/articles/Rightly-Dividing-1-Timothy-2-9.pdf

Oh, frass! I'm not going to open your personal link. Post your defining arguments here if you want me to read them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok, @Derf , I really want to hear your answer to this question.

@2PhiloVoid , I would welcome your thoughts on this historical fact. I mean, Jesus told us to baptize people. Paul talked about baptism. This is what was in their mind when they said that.

I don't want to have to "check it out." I want you to cite your damned sources! Can you do that? Or, are you just going to push us to play your own spin on pin the tail on the donkey?

Here's what you need to know: I have degrees in both Philosophy and Education/Social Science. What this means is that no one here on this entire forum is going to run circles around me. Kapeesh?

As far as I'm concerned, this thread has nothing to do with either basic life facts of social significance like: how women breastfed their children in the past and as to how they did so "modestly" or whether or not some churches practiced naked baptism.

What I want to know is if your intending inference for a thesis in this thread is attempting to make room for the presence of indecent content among Christian men. Is it? Answer that!

I also want to know what your take is on the social and cultural nature of 1st century Ephesus as a contextual backdrop for the passage in 1 Timothy that you're attempting to explicate. For instance, despite that a scholar like S.M. Baugh says that there was no cultic prostitution taking place in the Ephesus of Paul's time, I'm not so sure that it's an absolute impossibility. But even if cultic prostitution involved the Goddess Artemis/Diana of the Ephesians didn't involve a sexually immoral component, the "new women" of the Roman Empire of that time, especially in Ephesus, had various pagan influences which heavily leading them to challenge Christian leaders, and that surely plays into how we are to read and understand what Paul was saying to Timothy (.....and that's assuming that 1 Timothy is indeed an authentic letter of Paul and that we don't have to get into the additional side debate about whether or not it really is authentic).

​

BiblicalStudies.org.uk: Cult Prostitution In New Testament Ephesus: A Reappraisal by S. M. Baugh

Also, I'm referring to Kroeger & Kroeger's book for additional support in my interpretive beginning point here:

Kroeger, Richard Clark, and Catherine Clark Kroeger. I suffer not a woman: Rethinking I Timothy 2: 11-15 in light of ancient evidence. Baker Academic, 1998.​

 

[enoob57]

Both KJV and NASB use a form of the word "Modest," but they literally translate different Greek words!

a benchmark of Greek scholarship, KJV and NASB, and you do not seem to think we see through this of you knowing better... LOL

 

[Derf]

That's a total bail out.

They were naked at a public religious ceremony... no shame involved!

So why can't you acknowledge that?

Remember the day of Pentecost? 3000 souls baptized in one day. All of them naked in public... nothing shameful about it.

How do you know it was in public? And even if it was, what did they do afterward with their clothes? throw them away? give them to needy non-Christians? Or did they put them back on?

Do you still hold to your preconception that nakedness is shameful? What did you say about trying to defend a belief rather than being interested in the truth?

So, do I need to repeat what I said because you don't remember? See above for how it applies to you.

I can give a reason for why they might baptize in the buff and then put their clothes back on (who wants to hang out in drippy clothes?), but can you?

Can you explain why the one disciple (not all of them) in the garden ran away naked?