Hymns like this?

[Albion]

So the difference is the profession of belief in God-like powers or authority. Can we narrow this down a little more? Which powers and authority are proper only to God? We could probably agree on eternal salvation/life.

Let's just start with the highlighted phrases in the hymn we were already looking at.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How do you pray that is significantly unique and sacred? How do other people communicate their prayer request to you?

Can we at least agree that prayer and worship are different?

Then if prayer and worship are different, then what about prayer makes it exclusively directed toward God? In it's essence, what is prayer to you?

Prayer to God is, among other things, ascribing to Him things that are uniquely His and His alone. Among those things is the ability to save people. It is absurd for me to ask anyone other than God to save me.

Now, the standard response is that "save" really doesn't mean "save" in the spiritual sense of eternal salvation in heaven, but really means something like deliverance or help. This definition is secondary so that if I couch my prayer in terminology where I address God as the One who possesses eternal splendor and glory, then it is evident that when I ask for salvation, that I am not merely asking for help to get along better in life.

What we have in this hymn is a human, now deceased, who is being asked to do things in her own power which she is quite incapable of doing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God is not diminished by anything you can do or say. That is a fundamental truth which must be grasped. And nobody that I have ever met prays to Mary (or a doctor) as God or believes that Mary (or a doctor) is God.

If I bowed down to my doctor and told him that he was most glorious and blessed among people and then asked him to save me, granting me a place in heaven among the blessed, I would be committed to a lunatic asylum.

 

[Kristos]

Let's just start with the highlighted phrases in the hymn we were already looking at.

which are?

 

[Kristos]

Prayer to God is, among other things, ascribing to Him things that are uniquely His and His alone. Among those things is the ability to save people. It is absurd for me to ask anyone other than God to save me.

Now, the standard response is that "save" really doesn't mean "save" in the spiritual sense of eternal salvation in heaven, but really means something like deliverance or help. This definition is secondary so that if I couch my prayer in terminology where I address God as the One who possesses eternal splendor and glory, then it is evident that when I ask for salvation, that I am not merely asking for help to get along better in life.

What we have in this hymn is a human, now deceased, who is being asked to do things in her own power which she is quite incapable of doing.

It seems like most people have a relatively easy time distinguishing meaning based on context - there are hundred of words in English that have multiple meanings and they are rarely confused. I don't see why this case should be THE exception.

"Her own power" is an interesting phrase - do we really have our own power? I suppose humanists and pagans might say so, but do Christians? Any "power" I have is from God.

 

[Albion]

which are?

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

Assaults of the passions have shaken me,
My soul to its limits
Has been filled with much despair;
Bring peace, O Maiden, in the calmness,
Of your own Son and your God, all‑blameless One.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To God and the Savior you've given birth;
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge,

With both my soul and my reasoning.

Now and forever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Diseased is the body and the soul;
Deem me truly worthy
Of divine guidance and your care;
For you alone are God's Mother,
As the good and the birthgiver of the Good.

----------

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

Still the darkest of passions,
Calm the sea of errors In your great peacefulness;
It was you who bore the guiding Lord,
And you who are the blessed bride of God.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

Your depth of compassion
Grant unto me
As one beseeching you;
You have carried the Compassionate
The Savior of those praising you.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

We are thankful for all the gifts
Which we have been given
by you the Spotless One;
And to you, we sing a hymn of praise,
Knowing you to be the Mother of God.

Now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

As a hope and foundation,
And a wall unshaken
Of our salvation;
Having you, the all‑lauded One,
From afflictions do you rescue us.

 

[concretecamper]

When Cornelius prostrated himself before Peter, Peter rebuked him (Acts 10:25,26). Cornelius could have easily explained his actions as being merely veneration or gratitude, but he did not.

According to Chrysostom, Peter refused this due to humility....not as a sign Cornelius was doing something wrong.

Likewise when John fell down to worship the angel in Revelation 19:10 he was told not to do that. I am quite certain that John knew that God only was to be worshipped and that he could very simply have viewed his action as being one of reverence, but it was not.

John's status was changed and he no longer needed to bow down to angels. This has nothing to do with the appearance of worship.


I really think to some (not all), the "debate" is more important than the "substance". You have been told the truth, but to accept the truth means no more debate and one less anti-Catholic agenda item.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It seems like most people have a relatively easy time distinguishing meaning based on context - there are hundred of words in English that have multiple meanings and they are rarely confused. I don't see why this case should be THE exception.

"Her own power" is an interesting phrase - do we really have our own power? I suppose humanists and pagans might say so, but do Christians? Any "power" I have is from God.

Thank you for the good post. I agree that the meaning is quite clear. We have a hymn (not a generic song) which has a very clear context of Christianity. It is titled as a hymn of, or to, Mary. The spiritual context is thus well established so that when she is asked to save us there is no doubt that we are not talking about her plucking us out of the ocean after our ship has sunk.

She is not asked to seek the power from any other source. She is not asked to intercede with anyone else to perform these various requests. She herself is importuned to do these things for the person making these prayers, despite the fact, as you say, she has no power to accomplish them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

According to Chrysostom, Peter refused this due to humility....not as a sign Cornelius was doing something wrong.

John's status was changed and he no longer needed to bow down to angels. This has nothing to do with the appearance of worship.

I really think to some (not all), the "debate" is more important than the "substance". You have been told the truth, but to accept the truth means no more debate and one less anti-Catholic agenda item.

So, if Peter had not assumed the guise of humility, then Cornelius' prostration, which was considered to be an act of worship, would have been just fine with God? And John's act of worship to the angel would have also been perfectly acceptable to God? There is no doubt that bowing and prostrating oneself was an act of worship in the Bible and within that culture. Otherwise, why were Christians martyred for refusing to bow to Caesar?

 

[concretecamper]

So, if Peter had not assumed the guise of humility, then Cornelius' prostration, which was considered to be an act of worship, would have been just fine with God? And John's act of worship to the angel would have also been perfectly acceptable to God? There is no doubt that bowing and prostrating oneself was an act of worship in the Bible and within that culture. Otherwise, why were Christians martyred for refusing to bow to Caesar?

If the Bible was not filled with examples of men bowing before angels ( with Lot, the bible says, with his face to the ground) you may have a point. Clearly the difference between worship and honor is the intent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If I bowed down to my doctor and told him that he was most glorious and blessed among people and then asked him to save me, granting me a place in heaven among the blessed, I would be committed to a lunatic asylum.

Possibly

However, Mary is not an ordinary person and her blessedness is a matter of divine revelation so I am thinking that if you call Mary most glorious and blessed among people (women specifically) you'd be quoting saint Elizabeth and saint Mary herself. Since these things are said in Luke chapter one.

 

[Albion]

You have been told the truth, but to accept the truth means no more debate and one less anti-Catholic agenda item.

Probably a routine comment on OBOB, but a technique for backing out of discussions here.

 

[concretecamper]

Probably a routine comment on OBOB, but a technique for backing out of discussions here.

Calling it like it is. It's like a broken record.....most on your side though

 

[Albion]

Calling it like it is. It's like a broken record.....most on your side though

You may have missed the bigger point. It's no good trying to have a discussion with someone who insists, as a condition of participating, that he be considered correct in all things, at all times, and won't hear of another POV. So I won't try.

 

[concretecamper]

You may have missed the bigger point. It's no good trying to have a discussion with someone who insists, as a condition of participating, that he be considered correct in all things, at all time.

When you are talking about MY intent...I am correct100% of the time.

. So I won't try.

You are just teasing us all now, aren't you

 

[Lukaris]

Much of the tradition behind these hymns seem clearly traceable to devotians that were given in honor of the marytred mother, her 7 sons, & Eleazar the priest in the Maccabean wars. This account is in 2 Maccabees 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+7&version=DRA

In fact these martyrs are commemorated at the beginning of the Dormition/Assumption fasts in the Orthodox & Catholic churches. These martyrs were highly commemorated among the diaspora Jews shortly before Christ and the evidence clearly shows in the extended homily called the 4th Book of Maccabees an excerpt from chapter 17:

4 Maccabees 17 Common English Bible (CEB)

17 Some of the guards reported that, just as they were about to grab the mother and put her to death as well, she threw herself into the fire before anyone could touch her body.
2 Mother, together with your seven sons, you made the tyrant’s violence look like nothing! You defeated his evil plans, and displayed dignity and bravery by your faithfulness. 3 You were set with honor like a roof on top of seven pillars, your sons. You held them firm without moving as you endured the earthquake of their torture. 4 So therefore be confident, holy-minded mother! Keep firm that hope in God that fueled your endurance. 5 The moon that is in heaven with the stars is not as royal as you. You lit the path of respect for God for your seven sons who are like stars, and you now stand in front of God in honor, firmly set in heaven along with them. 6 Your sons were true descendants of our father Abraham! 7 If we had the skill of an artist to paint a picture showing the story of your commitment to God, wouldn’t those who viewed the painting tremble to see a mother enduring the experience of seven children being tortured to death in so many ways?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=4 Maccabees 17&version=CEB


There are many laypersons in both churches who believe that the woman of the apocalypse in Revelation 12 is the Theotokos & Ever Virgin Mother.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+12&version=KJV

The language of both accounts & the honor to both of these mothers and their children include the worship & honor of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Much of the tradition behind these hymns seem clearly traceable to devotians that were given in honor of the marytred mother, her 7 sons, & Eleazar the priest in the Maccabean wars. This account is in 2 Maccabees 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+7&version=DRA

In fact these martyrs are commemorated at the beginning of the Dormition/Assumption fasts in the Orthodox & Catholic churches. These martyrs were highly commemorated among the diaspora Jews shortly before Christ and the evidence clearly shows in the extended homily called the 4th Book of Maccabees an excerpt from chapter 17:

4 Maccabees 17 Common English Bible (CEB)

17 Some of the guards reported that, just as they were about to grab the mother and put her to death as well, she threw herself into the fire before anyone could touch her body.
2 Mother, together with your seven sons, you made the tyrant’s violence look like nothing! You defeated his evil plans, and displayed dignity and bravery by your faithfulness. 3 You were set with honor like a roof on top of seven pillars, your sons. You held them firm without moving as you endured the earthquake of their torture. 4 So therefore be confident, holy-minded mother! Keep firm that hope in God that fueled your endurance. 5 The moon that is in heaven with the stars is not as royal as you. You lit the path of respect for God for your seven sons who are like stars, and you now stand in front of God in honor, firmly set in heaven along with them. 6 Your sons were true descendants of our father Abraham! 7 If we had the skill of an artist to paint a picture showing the story of your commitment to God, wouldn’t those who viewed the painting tremble to see a mother enduring the experience of seven children being tortured to death in so many ways?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=4 Maccabees 17&version=CEB


There are many laypersons in both churches who believe that the woman of the apocalypse in Revelation 12 is the Theotokos & Ever Virgin Mother.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+12&version=KJV

The language of both accounts & the honor to both of these mothers and their children include the worship & honor of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for the text from II Maccabees. I noticed that the mother is not the recipient of any requests, but is simply addressed in an honorific manner. She is not asked to do anything for anyone, much less save them.

I doubt that any of us on this thread would be upset by a hymn extolling the virtues of Mary as they are shown to us through the Bible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You may have missed the bigger point. It's no good trying to have a discussion with someone who insists, as a condition of participating, that he be considered correct in all things, at all times, and won't hear of another POV. So I won't try.

Cool. Some self examination at work

 

[Albion]

I doubt that any of us on this thread would be upset by a hymn extolling the virtues of Mary as they are shown to us through the Bible.

Very true. Let anyone say only that the Marian doctrines or devotions go too far...and the immediate response from some quarters is a claim that the speaker wants to dishonor Mary. Nothing that's between the extremes of this and other doctrinal issues exists for those folks.

 

[George95]

So all in all, it seems that there is a mixed view. Some say it is unbiblical, while some say it's simply a mix of honor to the Trinity and Mary.