How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Can a prideful sinner be saved, if they stay prideful?

  • Yes

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Soyeong

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If you meet a prideful sinner.
How would you tell him about Jesus, in order that he would be saved.
Keeping in mind, he will do what you say.

Would you tell him to humble himself (repent)?

If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved.

What steps would he need to take, that aren't works, in order to be saved.


Keep in mind this verse: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time"

This is a question for those who vainly throw "saved by grace, not works" verse at every opportunity.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with living in obedience to God's instructions, such as with the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. So doing good works in obedience to God should be thought of as acts of faith, not as trying to add our own works on top of faith.
 
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Well, I feel Calvinism is wrong on many levels and it doesn't take a Bible to figure that out. Basic morality should tell a person this. No offense, but I believe it is immoral because it seeks to paint God in a bad light by saying that GOD just randomly saves some and not others. God is good and loving and seeks all to be saved. Arminianism is closer to the truth, but it doesn't get it exactly right, either.

For Clarification:

#1. Prevenient Grace / Free Will (Arminians get this right).

#2. Conditional Election (Arminians get this right).

#3. Majority Atonement for Mankind (See: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8).*

#4. Resistible Grace (Arminians get this right).

#5. Conditional Security of the Saints (A person has to keep themselves in the love of God).*​

From my perspective: Calvinism is kind of like an inventor who creates a robot whereby it is programmed to inevitably kill and murder others (as it's only choice) and then he later puts that robot on trial for it's crimes (even when the inventor could have stopped the robot easily or given the robot a free will choice to choose not to murder). In other words, in the Calvinistic belief: The Judgment of mankind is completely illogical. It makes no sense to judge man for something they had no control over. That would be like having a judgment set for a dog who pooped on a carpet all because the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem (whereby it cannot control itself).
 
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JacksBratt

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Mark 10:20-23 shows that a person does have obligations regardless of having faith. Even religious practices and traditions are shown to not be enough. Even though God broke the penalties of sin, that doesn't mean he doesn't want us to do good.
Nobody said that He doesn't want us to do good. How can we be His hands and feet if we don't do His work? How can we shine and display His goodness in us, if we don't do good?

Remember? This little light of mine.. I'm going to let it shine.

Of course we please Him when we do good.



So you think a God who just sends people to hell --regardless of them living a good life, all because they don't believe in him-- is a good god? You really think Satan is asking this question?

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We are all going there from the start...
It really concerns me when I hear people saying that "God sends people to Hell" or "If you do that.. you're going straight to Hell"...

This IS a lie of Satan...

People..........we are all on the road to hell. We have ALL come short of the glory of God and......due to this FACT... we cannot exist in His presence. Period.

So, Christ came, died, rose again and offers us a way out.. A way off the road to Hell.. He gets us out of the Hand basket we are going to Hell in.

So........Yes.......Good people, who don't accept Christs gift of salvation... are simply refusing the life boat from their original destination.

Being "good" is not "good enough".. Only "believing in Christ" will save you.
 
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JacksBratt

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You have one person who lived somewhere in a non-religious country, and you have another guy who is a priest or Pastor. The person who lived in another country is a good person; he doesn't fight others, he doesn't do any illegal things, nor does he judge.. yet you have the priest/pastor/christian who have done things like, molested children, or just looks down on others. How can God be good if he sends the first guy to hell, or even both of them?
We are all born with the knowledge of good and evil in our hearts... Just look at some toddlers playing.. They know it's wrong to hit, pull hair... yank a toy from another child, lie... or whatever.. you can see it in their eyes.. they don't need to be taught this.

In any society stealing is wrong, murder, violence, lying....... it is human nature to understand this..

Those that never hear the gospel, lived in a "non christian" country, never heard of Christ or the bible... They will be judged by a all knowing God, who see's their heart.

Think of this verse, nobody is without excuse:

Romans 1:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:




Because with out Jesus, no faith nor work would be good enough to go to heaven. All is the same results unless you work unnatural that good like Elijah did.

Elijah had faith far greater than some people today.. It was his faith that saved him, not his works...
--
Faith is supposed to be positive (also rational, IMO), it is supposed to be something bigger than just believing. A true christian is defined based on his works, because Jesus is good. If you believe in a good God then you yourself have to do good, or do your best to do good, and it should be natural at the same time.

Man defines men by works.... God defines men by their faith and rewards them for their works.

We will be rewarded for our works here.. but it is not what saves us.

Look at Jesus' problem with the Scribes and Pharisees. These high priests obviously believed in God, and they obeyed the mosaic laws, yet they were not good people.

Yep, they were only good in appearance... What did Jesus say again? They were like fine pottery on the outside, but inside they were disgusting? Hypocrites?

Is Christ not saying that they were phony?

23 Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.

See, you give good verses.. The Pharisees and Teachers were hypocrites. Even though they were experts of the Law... they only expected others to follow it. They didn't follow it themselves.
 
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I wasn't saying it was an adverb... sigh. But I did misunderstand you. Yes they are connected.



There is a world of difference between denying sin exists and saying that sin has been atoned for.



You are assuming that the believer that knows his sins are already atoned for and forgiven does not appreciate what God has done for them. The one's repentance and faith can be just as sincere as the other's. 1 John 1:9 is about relationship, not position. We are positionally saved forever, according to OSAS, once we accept Christ, and our confession and repentance is all about our experience of relationship with God. I would change that and say we are saved as long as we hold to our faith in Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross, and that faith is living in the sense that it produces growth in holiness and good works.



Again, one can be just as sincere as the other. Jesus HAS already pain the price for our sins, and no further atonement is necessary (Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:26). Again, confession of sin is about relationship, not salvation. ANY sin is heinous in God's eyes, and to divvy it up is the doctrine of man, not God (James 2:10). God see's the heart, and knows all things, people make think they can play repentance with God, but they cannot. Such a person is in danger of hellfire. Again, David repented and confessed, just as we do, to regain relationship, not positional salvation. You are conflating the two.

Good morning Michael.

I pray all manner of goodness of the Lord Jesus Christ to be upon you today; And I hope you are doing well.

Okay, to get down to business:

As for your interpretation on 1 John 1:9:

This view is not new for me. It is the standard cookie cutter OSAS explanation that holds no weight in Scripture, friend. I have debated this view many times and feel it is a clear distortion of the text. First, John does not emphasize how the individual is still saved and only loses fellowship with GOD.

The Bible clearly teaches that fellowship does deal with salvation:

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).​

Furthermore, John speaks of light and darkness through his epistle. Light is loving your brother (neighbor) and darkness is not loving your brother (neighbor).

10 "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:10-11).​

John says in 1 John 3:15 that if a person hates their brother, they are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in them.

So yes. John is talking about salvation.
For one cannot be saved without eternal life abiding in them.

To top it off, you are still faced with the contradiction that if GOD truly forgave all future sin, then there would be no need to confess sin and or lose fellowship. Fellowship is merely a part of salvation because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus is the source of life. He is the bread of life (John 6:35). Jesus says if a man does not abide in Him, He is cast forth as a branch and burned (John 15:6).

Not sure how you can ignore these verses in Scripture.

Anyways, whether agree or disagree, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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Again, one can be just as sincere as the other. Jesus HAS already pain the price for our sins, and no further atonement is necessary (Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:26).

Okay, lets look at these verses.

"Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." (Hebrews 7:27).​

Hebrews 7:27 above here is merely showing the imperfection of the old priesthood and the atonement compared to the atonement made by Jesus Christ.

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:26).​

Hebrews 9:26 says He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. A Universalist can read these verses and make the case that everyone is forgiven by pointing out these verses, but they would have to rip these verses out of their context in light of the rest of the Bible. A person has to have faith. In addition, neither Hebrews 7:27 and Hebrews 9:26 say that future sin is forgiven for the believer by their having a mere belief alone. In part: These two verses are talking about how Jesus took away the sins of the whole world (John 1:29) and how He is the propitiation of the sins of the world and not just for our sins only (1 John 2:2). Jesus died for all mankind's sins (Except those who will worship the beast in the future - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation; For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes in Him shall not perish (John 3:16). This would be more than just believing in the person of Jesus, but it would be believing in everything He taught, too.

Remember, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. This would be from the moment they first have faith in Christ's grace for salvation (Believing in his death and resurrection and seeking His forgiveness over their sins) with them then living out their faith by obeying the commands in the New Testament that comes from Jesus and His followers. The atonement is only applied if one applies true faith to the equation through out one's whole life. True faith is always shown true by works (James 2:17-18).

But it is more than just doing good works. If a person also justifies sin on some level (by saying that others can sin and still be saved - even if that sin is temporary, they can lead others to fall into turning God's grace into a license for sin - Whether they want that to happen or not). For Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him not because they did wonderful works but because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See Matthew 7:23).

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4).

See, in the Old Covenant system, the animal sacrifices only provided a temporary atonement or covering for sin, and they had to keep revisiting the same PAST sins every year to keep applying God's atonement. But when Jesus came, He forever took away our past sin (When we came to Him for forgiveness).

Future sin is not forgiven for a believer.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
ANY sin is heinous in God's eyes, and to divvy it up is the doctrine of man, not God (James 2:10).

Not all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like: Love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23). Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism is not for salvation. Yet, it is a command as a part of the great commission (Matthew 28:19). But Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Psalms 19:12 talks about secret or hidden faults. Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven and speaking bad words against the Son (Jesus) can be forgiven. The sin of worshiping the beast in the future is so bad to GOD that their names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

So what about James 2:10?

Well, this is the only verse that suggests (at first glance with a quick reading) that all sin is the same, and a reader who does use this verse to support this view has to do at the expense of ignoring so many other verses in the Bible.

James here is not talking about ceremonial laws in the New Covenant like baptism, the Lord's supper, etc. James is talking about the "Royal Law" (i.e. to love your neighbor) (James 2:8).

8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:8-11).​

So in verse 10: When James says if you keep the whole Law , he is referring to the whole of the Royal Law (in loving your neighbor) and if you offend in one point in the keeping of this whole law of loving your neighbor, you are guilty of breaking all of God's laws. Verse 11 confirms this by it saying, "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

You said:
God see's the heart, and knows all things, people make think they can play repentance with God, but they cannot. Such a person is in danger of hellfire.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8). How much more do you think this is so for those who believe?

You said:
Again, David repented and confessed, just as we do, to regain relationship, not positional salvation. You are conflating the two.

Not true. The Bible says,

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15).
 
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food4thought

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Good morning Michael.

I pray all manner of goodness of the Lord Jesus Christ to be upon you today; And I hope you are doing well.

Same to you, Jason.

Okay, to get down to business:

Indeed, let's do so.

As for your interpretation on 1 John 1:9:

This view is not new for me. It is the standard cookie cutter OSAS explanation that holds no weight in Scripture, friend. I have debated this view many times and feel it is a clear distortion of the text. First, John does not emphasize how the individual is still saved and only loses fellowship with GOD.

Well, feel free to disagree. To me, it is the only view that makes sense of all Scripture (Romans 8:38-39; John 10:27-29; Philippians 1:6; Romans 7:14-25; Romans 8:1-4). If we walk in the Spirit, even though we fall, God will cleanse us and forgive us... only those who leave the faith willfully and never come back to God in repentance are lost.

The Bible clearly teaches that fellowship does deal with salvation:

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).​

Of course you can't have fellowship without salvation, but you can have salvation without fellowship (not much koinonia going on when the Lord is scourging us Hebrews 12:5-6). God is our loving Father, and though we may grieve Him, He will not disown us as sons for every infraction. We may lose fellowship, but not sonship. True, severe enough sin can destroy the relationship for a time, but if there is true repentance, there can be reconciliation. And it could be said that the son never stopped being the Father's child, even when the relationship/fellowship was severed.

Furthermore, John speaks of light and darkness through his epistle. Light is loving your brother (neighbor) and darkness is not loving your brother (neighbor).

10 "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:10-11).​

John says in 1 John 3:15 that if a person hates their brother, they are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in them.

So yes. John is talking about salvation.
For one cannot be saved without eternal life abiding in them.

That is a solid argument, and I do not have an answer to it at this time. It would seem, at the least, that a murderer is lost unless they confess and repent.

To top it off, you are still faced with the contradiction that if GOD truly forgave all future sin, then there would be no need to confess sin and or lose fellowship.

Again, one cannot have fellowship without salvation, but one can have salvation without fellowship.

Fellowship is merely a part of salvation because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus is the source of life. He is the bread of life (John 6:35). Jesus says if a man does not abide in Him, He is cast forth as a branch and burned (John 15:6).

Not sure how you can ignore these verses in Scripture.

Not ignoring them, brother. Just trying to fit them in with other passages that would seem to teach the opposite. All of Scripture is my guide. One of my former teachers said; "If you are going to ere, ere on the side of grace." I have found that to be very helpful when trying to fit together the pieces of Scripture that appear contradictory.

Anyways, whether agree or disagree, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.

And on you, as well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

The LORD bless you, and prosper you,
the LORD make His face to shine upon you.
The LORD lift up His countenance
upon you and give you rest
 
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I still believe Jesus was trying to get them to see the hopelessness of attaining righteousness solely through keeping the Law.

Then Jesus's words here would have been a lie. He would be telling them to do something they can never do. God is not the author of confusion. If Jesus says, "this do, and you shall live," then that is what it means. Besides, nowhere does Jesus ever say later that this was all said as a part of how we cannot keep His commandments. Jesus made many points about how if you love Him, we are to keep His commandments (John 14:15). If you want to be His friends, keep His commandments. He warned of many sins and how they can lead to spiritual death (Matthew 5:22) (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 19:17-19) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (Luke 10:25-28).

They needed faith. They needed a new heart (Ezekiel 11:19). They needed to be born again (John 3).

This is a part of God's commands in the New Testament.

We are told in Scripture to: "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22).
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts of the Apostles 16:31).
In fact, 1 John 3:23 says that to believe on Jesus is a commandment.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born again. This is also a command because Jesus is saying that he MUST be born again. For Jesus says, "You must be born again" (John 3:7).

All of these things are a part of our faith.
For faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17).

You said:
Even with all of those things, which God could have given without Christ dying on the cross, Jesus still had to pay the penalty for our sins, which are numerous, heinous, ugly, unholy, and endless... even after we are born again (see the entire book of 1 Corinthians). The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), and we can think we are holy when in fact we are full of uncleanness and iniquity in our hearts and minds (see the Pharisees). One of my pastors told me that the road to holiness is paved with a sense of our own wretchedness. I agree, the closer I come to God the more I realize the depth of my unholiness in the light of His perfect and absolute holiness, righteousness, and love.

Look to the Word of God in prayer and not some Pastor, my friend. While Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, this is only in view if we have the correct kind of faith to access the saving grace of God (Which is a free gift). A true faith is not only fruitful (with works) but it also does not justify sin in any way. For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. How can one do that if they say that King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder (Whereby it can lead others into treating God's grace as a license for immorality)?

You said:
Sinless perfection is a complete farce. Christian perfection as Wesley described it... maybe, but I am certainly not there. And neither was Paul (Philippians 3:12-16).

I never suggested that Sinless Perfection (generally speaking) is a salvation issue because it is putting away even minor transgressions or faults out of one's life (that are not a salvation issue). Overcoming grievous sin (like: Murder, coveting, and lying, etc.) deals with salvation (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

This is just not habitual sin.

1 John 3:15 says if any man hates his brother he is a murderer. It does not say that he has to be a habitual hater of his brother here.

Proverbs 6:32 says that the person who commits adultery destroys his own soul. It does not say that they have to do this sin habitually in order to destroy their own soul.
 
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ToBeLoved

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In other words, in the Calvinistic belief: The Judgment of mankind is completely illogical. It makes no sense to judge man for something they had no control over. That would be like having a judgment set for a dog who pooped on a carpet all because the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem (whereby it cannot control itself).
This is one of the most enjoyable posts I've read of yours in a while.

I agree with the overall sentiment though, hence why I am not a Calvinist
 
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the LORD make His face to shine upon you.

Reminds me of the Michael Card song (that is inspired from that piece of Scripture).


May the Lord bless you.
 
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food4thought

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Okay, lets look at these verses.

"Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." (Hebrews 7:27).​

Hebrews 7:27 above here is merely showing the imperfection of the old priesthood and the atonement compared to the atonement made by Jesus Christ.

This verse demonstrates that nothing more need be done to secure forgiveness of our sins. All we need to do is receive it in faith that leads to life... saying we need to do anything to earn forgiveness is blasphemy IMO.


"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:26).
Hebrews 9:26 says He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. A Universalist can read these verses and make the case that everyone is forgiven by pointing out these verses, but they would have to rip these verses out of their context in light of the rest of the Bible. A person has to have faith. In addition, neither Hebrews 7:27 and Hebrews 9:26 say that future sin is forgiven for the believer by their having a mere belief alone. In part: These two verses are talking about how Jesus took away the sins of the whole world (John 1:29) and how He is the propitiation of the sins of the world and not just for our sins only (1 John 2:2). Jesus died for all mankind's sins (Except those who will worship the beast in the future - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation; For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes in Him shall not perish (John 3:16). This would be more than just believing in the person of Jesus, but it would be believing in everything He taught, too.

The first gentiles to believe received the Holy Spirit on a lot less than ALL that Jesus taught... they had FAITH (not just belief) in His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection, which led them to obedience. Salvation first, obedience (imperfectly) later. Look at the Thessalonians, they had Paul in town for approximately 2-3 WEEKS, and they were saved despite not having all of Jesus' teachings, and living out the teachings they knew imperfectly.

Remember, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. This would be from the moment they first have faith in Christ's grace for salvation (Believing in his death and resurrection and seeking His forgiveness over their sins) with them then living out their faith by obeying the commands in the New Testament that comes from Jesus and His followers. The atonement is only applied if one applies true faith to the equation through out one's whole life. True faith is always shown true by works (James 2:17-18).

Perhaps we are more in agreement than we think, as I can find no disagreement with that. I just believe that we cannot obey perfectly, and don't lose our salvation every time we sin, however grievously (with certain VERY limited exceptions).

But it is more than just doing good works. If a person also justifies sin on some level (by saying that others can sin and still be saved - even if that sin is temporary, they can lead others to fall into turning God's grace into a license for sin - Whether they want that to happen or not). For Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him not because they did wonderful works but because they also worked iniquity (sin), too (See Matthew 7:23).

Believing someone can sin and still be saved is not the same as justifying that sin... it is still rotten, ugly, despicable, etc. Sin is always evil, but we are all capable of evil even after we are saved.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4).

See, in the Old Covenant system, the animal sacrifices only provided a temporary atonement or covering for sin, and they had to keep revisiting the same PAST sins every year to keep applying God's atonement. But when Jesus came, He forever took away our past sin (When we came to Him for forgiveness).

Jesus died for ALL my sins, His is the perfect, complete atonement.

Future sin is not forgiven for a believer.

With all my soul I disagree!

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

What is the sin that is being spoken of in context? Hebrews 10:23-25 describes what is being spoken of: holding fast the faith, spurring one another on to good works, and not forsaking the church. In context, then, it appears that he is speaking of apostacy (willfully leaving the faith), one of the VERY few exceptions to the rule of not losing salvation.



Not all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like: Love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23). Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism is not for salvation. Yet, it is a command as a part of the great commission (Matthew 28:19). But Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Psalms 19:12 talks about secret or hidden faults. Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven and speaking bad words against the Son (Jesus) can be forgiven. The sin of worshiping the beast in the future is so bad to GOD that their names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

I didn't mean to imply there are not different levels of severity, only that all sin is heinous to God, and that to break one Law is to break it all.

So what about James 2:10?

Well, this is the only verse that suggests (at first glance with a quick reading) that all sin is the same, and a reader who does use this verse to support this view has to do at the expense of ignoring so many other verses in the Bible.

James here is not talking about ceremonial laws in the New Covenant like baptism, the Lord's supper, etc. James is talking about the "Royal Law" (i.e. to love your neighbor) (James 2:8).

8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:8-11).​

So in verse 10: When James says if you keep the whole Law , he is referring to the whole of the Royal Law (in loving your neighbor) and if you offend in one point in the keeping of this whole law of loving your neighbor, you are guilty of breaking all of God's laws. Verse 11 confirms this by it saying, "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

I disagree about it only referring to the royal law, but it is unimportant because we have already established that there are differing levels of sin in God's eyes, and I did a terrible job of explaining what I was trying to say. I apologize for any confusion I caused.



The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8). How much more do you think this is so for those who believe?

Agreed.



Not true. The Bible says,

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15).

Agreed. Thank you for correcting me on that point.
 
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@food4thought:

Is it not possible that somebody could be the next George Sodini by hearing that future sin is forgiven them? For it could make them think they can commit grievous sin and still be saved because their future sin is paid for.

To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article here.

Would not God hold a person accountable to leading a person into a license to sin like that?
In fact, I have no doubt that George Sodini believed with all his soul that future sin was forgiven him, too. This is why he rationlized that he could commit murder and then take his own life and yet still be saved. But if Scripture teaches that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 And it does - See: John 3:15), then they would be in error and they would not actually be saved (and they are merely deceiving themselves). But if a person knows that murder and adultery (without repentance) leads to spiritual death, they will be less likely to do these things because their own soul would be at risk. But if future sin was paid for, then I can sit back and not worry about anything. I can have my cake and eat it by going back to my old life of sin as if nother ever happened. But something did happen. Jesus changed my heart and life and forgave my past sins (Whereby he calls me unto holiness and not uncleanness - 1 Thessalonians 4:7).
 
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FireDragon76

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If you meet a prideful sinner.
How would you tell him about Jesus, in order that he would be saved.
Keeping in mind, he will do what you say.

Would you tell him to humble himself (repent)?

If you do, then are you getting him to do a work, before/in order to getting saved.

Not at all. It's simply a case of reminding someone who is perhaps wayward, how Christians should live. It's not a statement about their standing with God.
 
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food4thought

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@food4thought:

Is it not possible that somebody could be the next George Sodini by hearing that future sin is forgiven them? For it could make them think they can commit grievous sin and still be saved because their future sin is paid for.

To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article here.

Would not God hold a person accountable to leading a person into a license to sin like that?
In fact, I have no doubt that George Sodini believed with all his soul that future sin was forgiven him, too. This is why he rationlized that he could commit murder and then take his own life and yet still be saved. But if Scripture teaches that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 And it does - See: John 3:15), then they would be in error and they would not actually be saved (and they are merely deceiving themselves). But if a person knows that murder and adultery (without repentance) leads to spiritual death, they will be less likely to do these things because their own soul would be at risk. But if future sin was paid for, then I can sit back and not worry about anything. I can have my cake and eat it by going back to my old life of sin as if nother ever happened. But something did happen. Jesus changed my heart and life and forgave my past sins (Whereby he calls me unto holiness and not uncleanness - 1 Thessalonians 4:7).

George Sodini is definitely a sad case. IDK what was in his heart, IDK whether he had a mental illness, etc. Truth be told, though, Paul makes it abundantly clear we cannot commit sin with impunity if we are saved:

Romans 6:1-23 NASB What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? (2) May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. (10) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (11) Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (12) Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, (13) and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. (14) For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! (16) Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (17) But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, (18) and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (19) I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. (20) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. (21) Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. (22) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

But Paul also makes it clear we are saved by grace through faith:

Romans 3:21-26 NASB But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

and

Romans 4:1-8 NASB What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? (2) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (4) Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (6) just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (7) "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. (8) "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."​

and

Romans 8:38-39 NASB For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​


and

Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight (9) He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10) with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him (11) also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (12) to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (13) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

and

Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​


I could go on, but I think my point is made. We are saved by God's grace accessed through faith (that inevitably leads to works).

What about the forgiveness of sins?

Ephesians 4:32 NASB Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.​

Note that we are called to be kind to each other over current and future faults, just as God has forgiven us in like manner.

Colossians 2:13 NASB When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,​

The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury has this to say on the bolded part:

The specification of "all" includes past, present, and future trespasses. This follows logically from the fact that justification does not admit of repetition, and that the pardon granted in justification "involves the removal of all guilt and of every penalty" (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 514). Confession of sin for the believer does not restore him to salvation, but to fellowship with God (1Jn_1:9). If continued salvation depended upon complete confession, then by this theory the failure to confess one sin through oversight would result in loss of salvation, which is contradictory to the possibility of assurance of salvation, our placement as sons and joint-heirship with Christ (Joh_1:12, Rom_8:17, +*Gal_4:5; +*Gal_4:7 note), and the close connection between (1) justification and glorification (+*Rom_8:29; +*Rom_8:30); (2) present suffering and future glory (Rom_8:17, 2Ti_2:12); (3) remission of sin and future inheritance (+*Act_26:18); (4) justification and hope of glory (Rom_5:1-2). %Psa_25:7; Psa_85:2; **Psa_103:3; **Psa_103:12, Isa_44:22, =Zec_3:4, +*Act_26:18, Rom_5:1-2, *2Co_5:19, *Heb_10:14, **1Jn_1:7.

Romans 8:2 NASB For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.​

How could I be set free from the law of sin and death if every time I grievously sin I lose my salvation? I cannot accept it, sorry brother.
 
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food4thought

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@Jason0047
Strange... I keep finding myself defending parts of OSAS even though I don't believe it anymore. I am going to bow out for now, Jason. I need to re-educate my mind regarding this doctrine, and get straight what exactly I believe.

God bless you, Jason... and thank you for making me think!

Michael
 
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George Sodini is definitely a sad case. IDK what was in his heart, IDK whether he had a mental illness, etc. Truth be told, though, Paul makes it abundantly clear we cannot commit sin with impunity if we are saved:

Romans 6:1-23 NASB What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? (2) May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. (10) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (11) Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (12) Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, (13) and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. (14) For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! (16) Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (17) But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, (18) and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (19) I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. (20) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. (21) Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. (22) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

But Paul also makes it clear we are saved by grace through faith:

Romans 3:21-26 NASB But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

and

Romans 4:1-8 NASB What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? (2) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (4) Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (6) just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (7) "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. (8) "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."​

and

Romans 8:38-39 NASB For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​


and

Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight (9) He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10) with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him (11) also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (12) to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (13) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

and

Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​


I could go on, but I think my point is made. We are saved by God's grace accessed through faith (that inevitably leads to works).

What about the forgiveness of sins?

Ephesians 4:32 NASB Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.​

Note that we are called to be kind to each other over current and future faults, just as God has forgiven us in like manner.

Colossians 2:13 NASB When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,​

The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury has this to say on the bolded part:

The specification of "all" includes past, present, and future trespasses. This follows logically from the fact that justification does not admit of repetition, and that the pardon granted in justification "involves the removal of all guilt and of every penalty" (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 514). Confession of sin for the believer does not restore him to salvation, but to fellowship with God (1Jn_1:9). If continued salvation depended upon complete confession, then by this theory the failure to confess one sin through oversight would result in loss of salvation, which is contradictory to the possibility of assurance of salvation, our placement as sons and joint-heirship with Christ (Joh_1:12, Rom_8:17, +*Gal_4:5; +*Gal_4:7 note), and the close connection between (1) justification and glorification (+*Rom_8:29; +*Rom_8:30); (2) present suffering and future glory (Rom_8:17, 2Ti_2:12); (3) remission of sin and future inheritance (+*Act_26:18); (4) justification and hope of glory (Rom_5:1-2). %Psa_25:7; Psa_85:2; **Psa_103:3; **Psa_103:12, Isa_44:22, =Zec_3:4, +*Act_26:18, Rom_5:1-2, *2Co_5:19, *Heb_10:14, **1Jn_1:7.

Romans 8:2 NASB For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.​

How could I be set free from the law of sin and death if every time I grievously sin I lose my salvation? I cannot accept it, sorry brother.

There are people I have spoken with in person and online (where their gospel message does not sound all that different from yours in the fact that a person can sin and still be saved by the fact that a person’s future sin is paid for). The only difference between you and them is that they believe they can commit lots of grievous sin and still be saved (similar to a George Sodini) and you believe that you can commit grievous sin only on occasion and still be saved. I really do not see that much of a difference between these two beliefs. Both are still a justification of evil. One is temporary and on occasion and the other is not. Does time and or the infrequency of the crime really change the crime?

I mean stop and think for a moment; Is it not possible that it is more likely that a person can deceive themselves into committing grievous sin habitually (with the thinking they are saved) if they believe they can abide in one or two grievous sins for a short amount of time? Is not the heart desperately wicked? Is there not a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death? What if you are wrong and your message leads a person to become the next George Sodini? They can start out thinking they can only commit sin occasionally and then quickly deceive themselves that they do this sin all the time or once every few years or every few months, etc.

What if a believing child hears your message and they think they can go out and sin like a King David and still be saved? What does Jesus say about those who can lead a child into sin?

This is the problem I see with the belief that says a believer can be saved while committing grievous sin on a temporary basis.

As for the verses:

I am busy at the moment, and I am not home near my computer to give a proper reply. So I thought I would appeal to morality and logic to show the error of this belief.
 
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Strange... I keep finding myself defending parts of OSAS even though I don't believe it anymore. I am going to bow out for now, Jason. I need to re-educate my mind regarding this doctrine, and get straight what exactly I believe.

God bless you, Jason... and thank you for making me think!

Michael

While Dan Corner is not my favorite preacher or Pastor to listen to because he can come off a little unloving and I do not agree with everything he says and does, he does get the topic of Soteriology correct involving sin and righteousness (for the most part). He makes some really good cases for how just one grievous sin can separate a person from God.

Check out this article here:

King David and Bathsheba | King David's Adultery

And this article here:

Practice Sin | Habitual Sin | Lifestyle Sin | Occasional Sin

He also has an 800 page book that is very insightful full of Scripture verses (that helped me). Well, I disagree with him on the salvation of Solomon (because I think he was saved; See this thread here), he does seem to get many other things correct.

Here is his book at Amazon:

full


https://www.amazon.com/Believers-Co...1&keywords=the+believers+conditional+security

Side Note:

I also disagree with Dan Corner on the necessity of humbleness, and in being thankful in being grievous sins (or serious transgressions). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. The Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee was dealing with a salvation issue and humbleness was the key factor of what Jesus desired us to do by us seeking forgiveness of our sins with Him. As for unthankfulness, in 2 Timothy 3:1-9, we learn about those who have a form of ungodliness, but they deny the power thereof. One of the traits that condemns them is their being unthankful. Thankfulness is a trait we should have in being thankful towards God (for what He has done for us) (Romans 1:21) and in being thankful for God's plan for our life (Whatever hardships that may bring for some of us). We see that the Israelites had perished because they complained about their current situation and even wanted to go back into bondage to Egypt (and were not thankful that they were delivered) (Numbers 14:27).

Deuteronomy 28:47-48 says,

47 "Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
47 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee."
 
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George Sodini is definitely a sad case. IDK what was in his heart, IDK whether he had a mental illness, etc.

Well, we have to be prepared to face the fact that he also simply just believed that way because there are many in religions today who believe they can do horrible acts of evil and still be saved in the name of their god. It does not mean they have a mental illness. This just means they are siding with sin. Jim Jones got his followers to kill themselves. He also was justifying sin and it does not automatically mean he had a mental problem.

However, George surely spoke in the same way on Eternal Security as I heard many speak before. On another forum that I have left, folks there used to believe in an extreme form of Eternal Security or Antinomianism. They believed they could sin without impunity. They called me some pretty bad stuff there and they did not like me too much (even though I did not do the same with them). I also talked with a guy in person who admitted to me they could mow down a crowd with a sub machine and they would be saved (even while doing so). Shocking huh? But here is the rub. You said King David was saved while he committed murder and adultery.

Yet, 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. It only takes one act of murder to become a murderer (Numbers 35:16-18). Proverbs 6:32 says, "whoso commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul." Leviticus 20:10 says, "the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." This means that one act of murder is considered murder and one act of adultery is consider adultery in God's eyes. A person does not need to habitually be a murderer to be a murderer and a person does not need to habitually be an adulterer to be an adulterer. The Bible says these kinds of sins leads to spiritual death unless they are repented of.

But Paul also makes it clear we are saved by grace through faith:

Romans 3:21-26 NASB But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

When we read Romans and Galatians, we have to first understand that Paul was not fighting against the necessity of works of faith that follows God's grace by faith. Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" and or in trying to saved by going back to a distorted version of the Old Contract (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses) that did not include God's grace; Paul was not talking about the necessity of following God's commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (after being saved by God's grace). Once you realize this truth from Scripture, his words will be more clear to you like never before.

For if a person is seeking to be saved by circumcision to be initially right with God, then they are:

(a) Trying to be justified or saved by a distorted version of the Old Contract that is no more (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses) (Note: This does not mean certain laws cannot be repeated in the New Contract like: Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet, etc.); For example: If you were about to buy a house and you did not like the contract from the sellers, you could ask for a new contract to be made. If they made a new contract agreeing to your changes, this does not mean that certain things in the old contract could not remain the same in the new contract). A covenant is similar to a contract and the Old Contract has been done away with.

(b) Trying to be saved by "Law Alone" or "Works Alone" and not by God's grace as the foundation of their faith. If a person seeks to be saved by circumcision FIRST, then they are not making God's grace the foundation of their faith but they are making circumcision (the Law) the foundation of their faith. Not even Abraham believed that he must FIRST be circumcised to be saved because Abraham first needed faith to be saved FIRST (Romans 4:9-12). This does not negate the necessity of circumcision that was later required as a part of the salvation process under the Old Covenant (When it used to be in effect at one time); For it is written: "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14). So if Abraham refused to be circumcised, he would have been cut off and he would have broke God's covenant. The point in Romans 4:9-12 was talking about what foundation we lay first. Abraham needed to FIRST have FAITH before he could do "works of faith." (Important Note: Circumcision is not a command that is repeated in the New Covenant). No man can lay no other foundation but Jesus Christ.​

We learn that at the Jerusalem Counsel, that they addressed the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism and in trying to be justified by the Law of Moses (i.e. the Old Contract).

  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."”.....................................................................................................................................................
  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul also was fighting against this same heresy:

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

So if we are to read Paul's words in context that he was fighting against the "Works of the Law of Moses" (i.e. The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism as the Foundation of One's Faith), we understand why Paul spoke the way that he did in regards to the necessity of God's grace to be saved over works (of the Law) and or how we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses). This means Paul was not speaking against the necessity of works of faith and holiness that follows God's grace.

Kerrigan Skelly really helped me to see this fact very clearly in his following sermon.

 
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Yes you should... Just as a dairy cow should give milk... If it doesn't give milk... it's still a cow... but giving milk is evidence of it being a cow.

Actually Jesus said anyone who does not produce fruit does not abide in Him and He does not abide in them.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

We don't. That is why the bible says that only God knows a mans heart.

Jesus said you can identify a tree by it’s fruit. I’m not saying that you can know everyone’ heart by their fruit but you can know some. In many cases it is easy to see.
 
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But Paul also makes it clear we are saved by grace through faith:

Romans 3:21-26 NASB But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

Paul was saying they needed to FIRST be saved by Jesus Christ and not by circumcision or the Law. Romans 3:1 says,

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

It's why Paul says that if one seeks to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing in Galatians 5:2. Paul was fighting against those who thought they needed to circumcised FIRST in order to be saved. Paul is essentially telling them.... "No, you FIRST need God's grace (JESUS) as your foundation and not the works of the Law of Moses (like circumcision).

In fact, many love to point out how the Christian is always abiding in sin according to Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23. Now, it is true we have sinned as a part of our old life, but these verses are not talking about the present life of the believer. How so? Well, if believe that these verses are talking about the present walk with GOD then you must also include Romans 3:11 into that, too. Romans 3:11 says there is none that seek after God and there is none that understands. Are you saying that Christians do not seek after God and that they do not understand things spiritually? Surely not. So we cannot isolate verses that we prefer to see to defend a wrong doctrine.

and

Romans 4:1-8 NASB What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? (2) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (4) Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (6) just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (7) "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. (8) "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."​

As I pointed out before in my other post, the point here in Romans 4:9-12 was one of foundation. We cannot lay the foundation of circumcision (the Law) as how we are saved but we have to lay the foundation of JESUS CHRIST. He is the only way. The Old Contract is not even in effect anymore. But even if it was in effect, nobody was ever FIRST saved by being circumcised. A person under the Old Covenant (when it was in effect at one time): This person FIRST needed to have FAITH in GOD as the foundation of their faith and not circumcision. Circumcision (Only under the OT) was a work of faith that followed having a belief in the LORD as our Savior. Back in the OT, circumcision was required LATER as a part of the faith and was a necessary part of the salvation process in OT times (Important Note: Again, circumcision is not a command in the New Covenant or New Testament; So it does not even apply. But the Pharisees were falsely twisting the OT Law to make circumcision the foundation of the faith when it was never even like that before - even when the OT was in effect at one time).

You said:
Romans 8:38-39 NASB For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Two things that you will notice that are not in this passage.

(a) Yourself, (and)
(b) Grievous Sin.

However, if you were to skip up to verse 13, you would read this:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

You said:
Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight (9) He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10) with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him (11) also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (12) to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (13) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I believe the Scriptures teach that God elects based on His future foreknowledge.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, " (1 Peter 1:1-2).

For it's why those individuals in the future who will worship the beast do not even have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

You said:
Ephesians 2:4-10 NASB But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Ephesians 2 is primarily focuses on our initial or ultimate salvation (See Ephesians 2:11-18), and not on our Sanctification or the works that must follow. Verse 10 is merely a quick point of what needs to happen after we are saved by God's grace (Jesus). Nothing in Ephesians 2 is clearly mentioned about Sanctification (or living holy) as a part of our salvation because it's focus is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism. However, we know by other verses in the Bible that Sanctification is a part of our salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Even Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. So Scripture has to be read as a whole and we cannot isolate verses so as to justify a wrong belief (Especially when that belief is immoral).

Ephesians 2:2-3 talk about how we were once in times past we were sinners (fulfilling the desires of the flesh). In other words, sin is a part of our old life and not our new life. Also, Ephesians 2:1 also says that we have been quickened. So Ephesians 2 is primarily talking about "Initial Salvation." For being quickened is a one time event. To be quickened means to be born again spiritually (Which can happen when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord). In fact, Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Which is a general call to all that a person needs to accept Christ, i.e. "Initial Salvation").

We are saved by God's grace accessed through faith (that inevitably leads to works).

I agree.

Note that we are called to be kind to each other over current and future faults, just as God has forgiven us in like manner.

Colossians 2:13 NASB When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,​

Nothing here is mentioned about how our future sins are paid for. No verse actually says that. Besides, the weight of evidence in Scripture suggests otherwise. For if all future sin was paid for, then there would be no need to confess sin and no amount of sin can keep us from inheriting God's Kingdom. But 1 John 1:9 implies the existence of sin in our lives still by it saying we have to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. So 1 John 1:9 does not recognize that future sin is paid for. Also, Paul says that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and then he lists various sins that can keep a person out of the Kingdom (like murder, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc.) (See Galatians 5:19-21). If sin was paid for in the future, these sins could not condemn a Christian because they would have been paid for in the fact that future sins are forgiven a believer. But this is not the case.

The Ultimate Cross Reference Treasury has this to say on the bolded part:

The specification of "all" includes past, present, and future trespasses. This follows logically from the fact that justification does not admit of repetition, and that the pardon granted in justification "involves the removal of all guilt and of every penalty" (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 514). Confession of sin for the believer does not restore him to salvation, but to fellowship with God (1Jn_1:9). If continued salvation depended upon complete confession, then by this theory the failure to confess one sin through oversight would result in loss of salvation, which is contradictory to the possibility of assurance of salvation, our placement as sons and joint-heirship with Christ (Joh_1:12, Rom_8:17, +*Gal_4:5; +*Gal_4:7 note), and the close connection between (1) justification and glorification (+*Rom_8:29; +*Rom_8:30); (2) present suffering and future glory (Rom_8:17, 2Ti_2:12); (3) remission of sin and future inheritance (+*Act_26:18); (4) justification and hope of glory (Rom_5:1-2). %Psa_25:7; Psa_85:2; **Psa_103:3; **Psa_103:12, Isa_44:22, =Zec_3:4, +*Act_26:18, Rom_5:1-2, *2Co_5:19, *Heb_10:14, **1Jn_1:7.

And they are lying.


You said:
Romans 8:2 NASB For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

The version of this verse you quote has been neutered. Many Modern Translations like to leave out what the entire verse says. Here is the verse in the KJV with the words bolded in red (that are missing in some Modern Translations):

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).
 
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