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Featured How would this sinner be saved, without works.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is the problem I have. You have declared that they will do this righteousness imperfectly. While Sinless Perfection (Which I believe is talking about non-grievous sin - generally speaking) is not a salvation issue, that does not mean believers cannot become perfect because Jesus commands us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is and He says we can be perfect as as the Master is (Himself) (See Matthew 5:48, and Luke 6:40). Granted, I do not want to push or debate the Sinless Perfection issue anymore than this paragraph because it is not permitted to push or debate Sinless Perfection on this section of the forums; But a believer will overcome grievous sin when they mature in their walk with the Lord (Galatians 5:19-21) (Romans 13:14) (1 Peter 4:1-2) (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    When you suggest that they will do this righteousness imperfectly, you are stating it as a future fact for every believer. If you are saying this is grievous sin this means that you know that they WILL commit serious sin again as a matter of fact. That every Christian will commit (most likely grievous sin) again as they strive to be righteous. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am 100% sure that OSAS is not true. I have no doubt that it is a teaching not found in the Bible. For there is no other doctrine that is more unbiblical. Click on the following spoiler button to check out some verses.

    Here is a Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):


    Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.


    Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.


    Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.


    Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.


    Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.


    Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.


    Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.


    Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.


    Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)


    Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).


    Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?


    Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.


    John 3:19-20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).


    John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.


    John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.


    John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?


    Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.


    Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.


    Romans 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.


    Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.


    Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.


    Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.


    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.


    1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.


    2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.


    2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.


    Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.


    Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


    Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.


    Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.


    Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.


    Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …

    … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.


    Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.


    Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.


    Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.


    1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.


    1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.


    1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.


    1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).


    1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.


    Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.


    Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?


    Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.


    Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.


    Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).


    Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).


    Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.


    Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.


    Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.


    Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.


    Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.


    Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.


    Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.


    James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.


    1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.


    2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.


    2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.


    2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.


    1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.


    1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.


    1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.


    Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality


    Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.


    Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).


    Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).


    Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.


    Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.


    Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.


    Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.


    Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.


    Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.


    Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe Jesus paid the price for the sins of the entire world, but it is faith lived out that allows the blood of Christ to be applied to our life (See 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 5:9). Christ did not die for future sin because we have to exercise faith in real time in order to be continually cleansed by the blood. Scripture says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). This is in view of forsaking sin (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 2:3-4) (Also see: Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. with Jonah 3:6-10).
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "A believer is only lost if they commit habitual grievous sin and not a singular grievous sin" is not a teaching found in the Bible.

    According to the Scriptures, a person only needs to commit murder once so as to be considered a murderer

    16 "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
    17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
    18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death." (Numbers 35:16-18).​

    Also, a person only needs to commit adultery once so as to be considered an adulterer.

    "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).​

    Paul believed Christians can be idolaters.

    "Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." (1 Corinthians 10:7).

    Revelation says,

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

    Notice that Revelation 21:8 says that ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. How many times do you need to lie in order to be a liar? It only takes one lie to be a liar. Revelation 21:8 says that all liars and not some will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

    Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts of the Apostles 5:3).​

    4 "...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things." (Acts of the Apostles 5:4-5).​

    If they were forgiven of all future sin and it does not take one sin to face God's wrath, then why did Ananais die for his sin of lying unto God followed by a great fear in all who heard it?

    Oh, and he was not saved when he sinned. He lost his salvation by his one sin.

    "And great fear came upon all the church"
    (Acts of the Apostles 5:11). ​

    Believers do not experience fear when they hear about a believer dying and going to be safely in the arms of the Lord.

    Post Update:

    A believer can be forgiven of sins (like murder and adultery) if they seek forgiveness with the Lord. But this is not a mere paying of lip service their whole lives.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  5. savedthroughgrace

    savedthroughgrace New Member

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    I think the key word is unrepentant. Unless you're saying that anyone who murders or commits adultery or other grievous sins one time is beyond saving .In which case, there are a lot of people, including myself, who should just give up.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is the heart of the real problem here. It is justification of sin and evil. To say that we can commit serious sin and still be saved is a violation of basic morality and or the goodness of God. God did not pay for willful acts of disobedience done against Him. Not even one grievous sin. God is not unrighteous. God is good. He cannot justify serious sin by allowing a believer to think that way. We are to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). If this is the case, then we cannot justify sin because Jesus never justified sin.... EVER.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right. I am referring to unrepentant sins.... "Yes." God can forgive sins (Romans 10:13) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Luke 18:13). It is by God's grace and forgiveness through faith by which we are initially and ultimately saved (Ephesians 2:8). If Jesus did not go to the cross, we would all be doomed. Jesus gives us grace to walk uprightly and not to walk in darkness.

    "For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

    The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe by God's grace, a believer is capable of overcoming grievous sin with enough time by seeking the Lord's help and by applying those Scripture verses that talk about overcoming grievous sin to their lives.

    I would recommend checking out Pastor Alan Ballou's YouTube channel. I also have a list of verses if you are interested, too. Just PM me, and I can send you the list. Anyways, here is Pastor Alan Ballou's videos.

    Alan Ballou
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26).

    We learn in Luke 10, that a lawyer asks Jesus what he must he DO to inherit eternal life. Jesus asks what is written in the Law, and the lawyer replies with, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says, he answered correctly, and said for him to DO THIS and he shall LIVE.

    25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:25-28).

    Jesus did not say, "No man can love God with all his heart, etc. and so believe on me to live." Jesus says, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:28).​

    Jesus says, "this do, and you shall live." (Luke 10:28).
    You are saying something else contrary to the words of Jesus here. Going against the commands of Jesus (that deals with eternal life) is Antinomianism, friend.

    Notice, Jesus did not make the same excuses you did for loving God with all your heart, etc. as a part of inheriting everlasting life. Jesus simply said, "do this and you shall live." I believe Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
    (2 Corinthians 5:17).
     
  11. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    I wasn't saying it was an adverb... sigh. But I did misunderstand you. Yes they are connected.

    There is a world of difference between denying sin exists and saying that sin has been atoned for.

    You are assuming that the believer that knows his sins are already atoned for and forgiven does not appreciate what God has done for them. The one's repentance and faith can be just as sincere as the other's. 1 John 1:9 is about relationship, not position. We are positionally saved forever, according to OSAS, once we accept Christ, and our confession and repentance is all about our experience of relationship with God. I would change that and say we are saved as long as we hold to our faith in Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross, and that faith is living in the sense that it produces growth in holiness and good works.

    Again, one can be just as sincere as the other. Jesus HAS already pain the price for our sins, and no further atonement is necessary (Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:26). Again, confession of sin is about relationship, not salvation. ANY sin is heinous in God's eyes, and to divvy it up is the doctrine of man, not God (James 2:10). God see's the heart, and knows all things, people make think they can play repentance with God, but they cannot. Such a person is in danger of hellfire. Again, David repented and confessed, just as we do, to regain relationship, not positional salvation. You are conflating the two.
     
  12. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    And you understand the nuances of Greek better than many people with terminal degrees in Greek? I trust the translators. John is talking about habitual unrepentant sin.

    So how often have you been saved today? Any sin (such as failing to love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength) is enough to separate you from God (James 2:10). If it is about salvation as you claim, you are either deluding yourself about your holiness or you are having to be saved multiple time per hour.

    OT. Sure we cannot sin with impunity, but this is speaking to Jews under the Law. We are not under Law, but in Christ if the Holy Spirit dwells in us. It has application to us in the sense of bringing us to confess and repent, but the punishment of the Law is no longer in effect... unless you suggest that we be stoning adulteresses, kids who curse their parents, etc.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Faith is a choice. Jesus says, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22).
    We are told to believe in the gospel (Mark 1:15). We are told to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). Jesus says, Follow me" (Matthew 4:19). Why would Jesus and His followers tell us to do these things if it was automatic? Ephesians 2:8 is saying that God's grace is a gift and not faith. God's grace is a gift to all who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Your opening post seems scrambled, and what is the question that you are actually asking?
    Why is the word, 'repent', enclosed at the end of the sentence?
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @food4thought

    I gotta run; I may reply later (if I have the time).

    May God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).
     
  16. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    I still believe Jesus was trying to get them to see the hopelessness of attaining righteousness solely through keeping the Law. They needed faith. They needed a new heart (Ezekiel 11:19). They needed to be born again (John 3). Even with all of those things, which God could have given without Christ dying on the cross, Jesus still had to pay the penalty for our sins, which are numerous, heinous, ugly, unholy, and endless... even after we are born again (see the entire book of 1 Corinthians). The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), and we can think we are holy when in fact we are full of uncleanness and iniquity in our hearts and minds (see the Pharisees). One of my pastors told me that the road to holiness is paved with a sense of our own wretchedness. I agree, the closer I come to God the more I realize the depth of my unholiness in the light of His perfect and absolute holiness, righteousness, and love. Sinless perfection is a complete farce. Christian perfection as Wesley described it... maybe, but I am certainly not there. And neither was Paul (Philippians 3:12-16).
     
  17. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    I understand, no problems. God bless you, too;

    Michael
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    2 Timothy 2
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26
    And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    If it weren't for God's mercy no one would repent!
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    2 Timothy 2:24-26

    The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.​

    Acts of the Apostles 5:30-31:

    “‘The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.’”​

    Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18:

    “‘Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?’ When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, ‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.’”​

    The simple meaning of God granting repentance is God giving the opportunity to be saved, for both Jews and Gentiles alike. However, when Calvinists read “grant them repentance,” they see “Irresistible Grace,” and for secretly elect Jews and secretly elect Gentiles.


    Also see: Jonah 4:11; Philippians 1:29; Acts 11:18.

    Source:
    Examining Calvinism.
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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