How to walk in the Spirit.

[fhansen]

There are many who are 100% certain that eternal fiery torment is in store for everyone except the elect.

Ok? There are lots of opinions out there.

Who's unforgiveness? Man's or God's? After all the verse says If you're unforgiving, then God will be unforgiving. But then again Jesus said God will forgive all sins except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Sure, for those who repent, and in this case begin to forgive as He does. It’s like saying, “I’ve shown you love and mercy while you hold your neighbor accountable for every offense committed." Read Matt 18:21-25, the parable of the unforgiving servant.
And were you trying to defend sin when you wrote "for those born again-because we'll continue to sin"? I think we all should try to avoid asking accusatory loaded questions like that

It was a question, that deserves to be asked. And I've already answered it more than once with the historic position that divides sin that leads to death from lesser sins that are almost inevitable. We will struggle with sin-that should at least be honestly stated. That doesn't' make it ok or mean that we're no longer obligated to be righteous- and seeing ourselves as sinless when we're not changes absolutely nothing because God is not a divine fool who hides His eyes from the truth. A carte blanc forgiveness of future sin just because one once believed in God is anti-gospel and just plain absurd.

 

[fhansen]

And the body argues over how those conditions apply and to whom and so on.

What "body"? The body that endlessly debates scripture and has no mechanism for resolving the questions?

 

[ozso]

Ok? There are lots of opinions out there.

It was a question, that deserves to be asked. And I've already answered it more than once with the historic position that divides sin that leads to death from lesser sins that are almost inevitable. We will struggle with sin-that should at least be honestly stated. That doesn't' make it ok and seeing ourselves as sinless when we're not changes absolutely nothing because God is not a divine fool who hides His eyes from the truth. A carte blanc forgiveness of future sin just because one once believed in God is anti-gospel and just plain absurd.

I consider questions like are you defending or justifying sin to be a purposely false accusation in the form of a loaded question.

 

[ozso]

What "body"? The body that endlessly debates scripture and has no mechanism for resolving the questions?

You, me, and the others in this thread, and around the world.

 

[fhansen]

I consider questions like are you defending or justifying sin to be a purposely false accusation in the form of a loaded question.

It's not an accusation-it's a question posed to elicit further thought about the truth of what's actually being said.

 

[fhansen]

You, me, and the others in this thread, and around the world.

Many of the questions that Sola Scriptura advocates debate among themselves were never even raised by the early church that simply received and proclaimed the truth at the beginning.

 

[ozso]

Many of the questions that Sola Scriptura advocates debate among themselves were never even raised by the early church that simply received and proclaimed the truth at the beginning.

The early Church wasn't as consistent as you seem to make it out to be. Calvin got his ideas from the teachings of Augustine who came up with new ideas the Church adopted. And only some Protestants are Sola Scriptura. And even those who are tend to appeal to sources outside the Bible, so they're not really.

 

[fhansen]

So, you have the wrong understanding of why people go to hell.

Its like this fhansen...

God allows you to end up in eternity, where you chose to Go, by becoming born again, or not on EARTH.

Heaven and Hell, are just destinations, that you choose, by receiving Christ or by rejection of Christ.
God does not send you to heaven, nor does God send you to Hell.

What God does, is RESPECT YOUR CHOICE, to go, after you die, ... based on what you did with Christ while you were BREATHING.

The unbelievers are children of the devil., and they go where their FATHER is destined to Go.

The born again, are children of God, and they end up, where their Father exits.

IDK, maybe you have been reading my posts after all since most of this just seems to be repeating what I've been saying more or less. But then you go on to assert that your views are different and something new. IDK.

 

[fhansen]

The early Church wasn't as consistent as you seem to make it out to be. Calvin got his ideas from the teachings of Augustine who came up with new ideas the Church adopted.

While Calvin liked to adopt Augustine as his own, Augustine didn't go as far as Calvin with double predestination or with the related notion of total depravity, that man's will plays absolutely no role in his salvation. Mainly Augustine's teachings were highlighted at the 2nd Council of Orange, as I've probably already mentioned, where the Church defined and laid out the the absolute necessity of grace in man's salvation.

And yes, the core beliefs of the early church are still held today in both the east and west, and still argued over today by many going by scripture alone.

 

[ozso]

IDK, maybe you have been reading my posts after all since most of this just seems to be repeating what I've been saying more or less. But then you go on to assert that your views are different and something new. IDK.

From what I've observed, you two often come quite close to where it comes down to a fine point like imputed vs infused.

 

[ozso]

While Calvin liked to adopt Augustine as his own, Augustine didn't go as far as Calvin with double predestination or with the related notion of total depravity, that man's will plays absolutely no role in his salvation. Mainly Augustine's teachings were highlighted at the 2nd Council of Orange, as I've probably already mentioned, where the Church defined and laid out the the absolute necessity of grace in man's salvation.

And yes, the core beliefs of the early church are still held today in both the east and west, and still argued over today by those going by scripture alone.

I'm not saying Calvin and Augustine taught the same thing. Just that Augustine and others came up with new ideas that caused changes within the early Church and there were many debates and counsels held to resolve disagreements.

Core beliefs were established and held by way of counsels and decrees. Excommunication to the point of being put to death was the result of not going along with it. That even took place within early Protestantism.

 

[fhansen]

From what I've observed, you two often come quite close to where it comes down to a fine point like imputed vs infused.

I could write a book on the differences, but I welcome any common ground-and yes, there is some- from my perspective anyway.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not saying Calvin and Augustine taught the same thing. Just that Augustine and others came up with new ideas that caused changes within the early Church and there were many debates and counsels held to resolve disagreements.

Core beliefs were established and held by way of counsels and decrees. Excommunication to the point of being put to death was the result of not going along with it. That even took place within early Protestantism.

Yes, there was some really ugly stuff back in the day-from all sides. Thank you. My main concern is that here's absolutely no way for the many denominations to even call a universal council anymore, of any kind, let alone get together and agree on many of the issues that divide them. And back then they actually did sit and resolve controversies when they arose and became critical. Every reader is a kind of maverick now it seems. Just like I was.

 

[fhansen]

So, once again, you are equating human emotional love as Spiritual that is God's, "Agape"

If faith doesn't lead on to love in us, which overcomes the lawlessness (sin) that continues to enslave and kill us, then it's availed nothing.

 

[fhansen]

deleted post.

 

[fhansen]

There is no scripture that says....>"Christ will leave you if you dont live right".
There is. no scripture that says "the born again can go to hell".

There is this....> "no man can take you out of my Hand".......and there is this...."and you shall never perish".


So, see that verse that says that no man can take you away from Christ once you are born again "in Christ".

That verse is also talking about the PERSON themselves.

Of course there are. As I've mentioned earlier, all hyperbolic encouragement is balanced by warnings and admonishments.

"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15:5-6

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame. Heb 6:4-6

If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

 

[ozso]

Yes, there was some really ugly stuff back in the day-from all sides. Thank you. My main concern is that here's absolutely no way for the many denominations to even call a universal council anymore, of any kind, let alone get together and agree on many of the issues that divide them. And back then they actually did sit and resolve controversies when they arose and became critical. Every reader is a kind of maverick now it seems. Just like I was.

In order to post in this section, you have to stay within core beliefs of Christianity. That's why you don't see Latter Day Saints here.

I think most of the mavericks here are still going by a particular doctrine. In this thread from the Protestant view, it's the difference between Free Grace theology VS Lordship Salvation theology.

 

[ozso]

I could write a book on the differences, but I welcome any common ground-and yes, there is some- from my perspective anyway.

Of course books have already been written on the differences. But for me at least, I'm not uncomfortable with either view, and I think essentially they're saying the same thing with different emphasis. It's like 'you can lose your salvation if you live like the devil' VS 'if you live like the devil then you're not really saved'. Both have the same outcome.

 

[Hmm]

Hell is a radical possibility for those who choose to remain apart from God. The church also teaches that "all manner of things shall be well", quoting a 14th century believer who received that simple knowledge from God during the Black Plague when she was burdened with the eternal fate of so many dying around her: that, in the end, all will be satisfied that the right thing has been done.

I didn't know the story behind the quote. Imagine receiving that word in the middle of the Plague and being able to believe it. Amazing too that the Catholic church still teaches it.

I think it sums it up for me as well as your point about choice. God made us all in His image and so we can only be our true selves if we honour this and try to be the person He wants us to be. This helps us fulfil our potential and reflects God into the world. I think some people simply don't want to submit to this and would rather be their own master. God's main commands are to love and rejecting God can mean rejecting love and choosing self-centredness, power and greed instead. They are essentially saying that they don't want to be God's child. I think God would honour this although He would grieve like any parent who has lost their child. I'd like to think that someone like this can turn to God after death and some of my favourite figures in the Christian world do believe this - I doubt there's a knockdown argument for this but that's true for a lot of our beliefs and that's why we disagree so much on certain things. I think all will be well or at least we'll get what we really want.

 

[ozso]

Of course there are. As I've mentioned earlier, all hyperbolic encouragement is balanced by warnings and admonishments.

"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15:5-6

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame. Heb 6:4-6

If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

Both of you have a series of convincing proof texts. And you disagree with each other on how those proof texts should be interpreted.

This thread has gone on for a month and reached 1500 posts. But from my observation, you're both still in a "Mexican standoff".