How to walk in the Spirit.

[ozso]

Why am I not surprised that you're going to work on your lame verbal skills rather than your complete lack of humility. By all means, skip the hard questions for which you apparently can't find the time to answer, or can't find the answers themselves.

You are making my point for me, over and over again... the Kingdom Law does not allow your arrogance... and makes the world into a place where the lion can lie down with the lamb. In your dispensation, the lion would've eaten the ram and ewe before the lamb had ever been born... or maybe you're not a very good example of what Paul would allow, either.

It's wolf and lamb.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them." Isaiah 11:6

 

[fhansen]

I don't think Jesus made an incomplete declaration. As if oops He forgot to make it conditional. But I can certainly see why John 8:10-11 seems to get repeated far more often than Luke 7:48-50. Heaven forbid there be any indication of unconditional forgiveness.

"Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

And... Nope that's all folks!

If we press the stop button where we like we can end up with whatever conditions or lack of them we prefer. Or we can jump over the scenes in the movie we find distasteful. Kind of a cafeteria style Christianity where we end up only with our favorite fare, regardless of whether the meal is good for us or not. Here's a condition:
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours." Matt 6

And one condition already was that she believe, where everyone else presumably goes to hell.

 

[Ligurian]

The first section of 1 John is written to non-believers. Either you're a sinner, outside of Christ, or you're in Christ, who has no sin. You can't be both.

You're wrong. 1 John starts out the same way as John's Gospel does... by describing Jesus. He goes on to say that repentence is needed for the forgiveness of sins, just as Matthew 5:23-24 tells us, and so does Matthew 18:15.

1 John 2:4 pretty much sums up what that letter is all about, which matches John 14:15-17 and Revelation 22:14... and a whole bunch of other verses. In fact, the whole Kingdom Gospel is summed up in the words "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."
Revelation 3:8 shows us the reward for keeping Jesus' word and not denying His authority.

 

[pescador]

Good, we agree that we must overcome sin-and that this is generally an ongoing matter for those born again-because we'll continue to sin. The "righteous standard of the law" (Rom 8:4) must be fulfilled in us. But not by being under the law but by the Spirit, under grace.

Then we don't agree. You wrote that we must overcome sin, yet Jesus paid the penalty for all sin and the Holy Spirit continually guides us.

Romans 8:1-5, " There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit."

What is it about Jesus' sacrifice for all sin that you don't understand?

 

[ozso]

If we press the stop button where we like we can end up with whatever conditions or lack of them we prefer. Or we can jump over the scenes in the movie we find distasteful. Kind of a cafeteria style Christianity where we end up only with our favorite fare, regardless of whether the meal is good for us or not. Here's a condition:
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours." Matt 6

And one condition already was that she believe, where everyone else presumably goes to hell.

Well you can call it incomplete and pressing the stop button etc, but that ultimately gets directed at Jesus. One can go even further and accuse Jesus of being inconsistent.

I find it interesting you say everyone else presumably goes to hell. Personally I think the love and forgiveness of Christ goes a lot further than tradition seems to allow it too.

As for Matthew 6:14-15, I'm forced to wonder exactly what Jesus is laying down. For instance if a Christian woman is raped and brutalized, is Jesus saying she will end up in hell if she's unable to forgive her attacker?

 

[pescador]

You're wrong. 1 John starts out the same way as John's Gospel does... by describing Jesus. He goes on to say that repentence is needed for the forgiveness of sins, just as Matthew 5:23-24 tells us, and so does Matthew 18:15.

1 John 2:4 pretty much sums up what that letter is all about, which matches John 14:15-17 and Revelation 22:14... and a whole bunch of other verses. In fact, the whole Kingdom Gospel is summed up in the words "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."
Revelation 3:8 shows us the reward for keeping Jesus' word and not denying His authority.

It's interesting that you skipped over 1 John 1. John never contradicted the basic truth of the Gospel: our sins have been forgiven because of the crucifixion, which paid the penalty for all sin for all people for all time. Please understand this: our sins have been forgiven. Anything to the contrary denies the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice!

BTW, Matthew (and the other gospels) were written to unbelievers, not to Christians.

Matthew 5:23-24, "So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift." This is about reconciliation with another person with whom you have a disagreement.

Matthew 18:15, "“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother." This is also about reconciliation with another person with whom you have a disagreement.

Nothing here about the forgiveness of sins or keeping His commandments.

 

[Ligurian]

It's wolf and lamb.
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them." Isaiah 11:6

True. But so is this:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:1 comes to mind doesn't it?

Haven't we seen in this thread that a man who is saved by grace can even do murder? Sure, you say you wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean all GG people feel like you do. Give them doctrines of predestination and justified by faith and alone watch them run wild.

If this were the OT, I'd say God is testing us even to this day.

You seem to be going with a default notion of it being about not wanting to do anything for God and just living for yourself, and that it must mean it's okay to be a child murderer and so on, which is a strawman, because I'm not saying anything of the sort. Maybe you could go back to what I actually said, and address that, instead of setting something up to knock down.

Combining the GG-lion's once-saved-always-saved doctrines,
With Kingdom Gospel sheep who are forbidden to kill, but must turn the other cheek,
Virtually gives GG-lions every opportunity to devour KG-sheep.

 

[fhansen]

Well you can call it incomplete and pressing the stop button etc, but that ultimately gets directed at Jesus. One can go even further and accuse Jesus of being inconsistent.

Why was any of that inconsistent? Jesus said much more than contained in that one verse that you chose to focus on. That's the problem when we become selective in our reading.

I find it interesting you say everyone else presumably goes to hell. Personally I think the love and forgiveness of Christ goes a lot further than tradition seems to allow it too.

I said presumably, could've said apparently, either way that is the general consensus, biblical and otherwise. Hell is a radical possibility for those who choose to remain apart from God. The church also teaches that "all manner of things shall be well", quoting a 14th century believer who received that simple knowledge from God during the Black Plague when she was burdened with the eternal fate of so many dying around her: that, in the end, all will be satisfied that the right thing has been done. Whooda guessed? It's just that we don't all the ins and outs of how He'll get it done.

As for Matthew 6:14-15, I'm forced to wonder exactly what Jesus is laying down. For instance if a Christian woman is raped and brutalized, is Jesus saying she will end up in hell if she's unable to forgive her attacker?

I'm sure He takes everything into account. But are you trying to defend unforgiveness now, that Jesus modeled for us in no uncertain terms? And do we really want to defend sin as well?

 

[Ligurian]

Well you can call it incomplete and pressing the stop button etc, but that ultimately gets directed at Jesus. One can go even further and accuse Jesus of being inconsistent.

I find it interesting you say everyone else presumably goes to hell. Personally I think the love and forgiveness of Christ goes a lot further than tradition seems to allow it too.

As for Matthew 6:14-15, I'm forced to wonder exactly what Jesus is laying down. For instance if a Christian woman is raped and brutalized, is Jesus saying she will end up in hell if she's unable to forgive her attacker?

Depends upon the true repentence of her attacker. There is no forgiveness without repentence in the Kingdom Gospel... which is actually what you're quoting from. But because these two gospels are considered to be one, despite Galatians 2:7-9, and completely despite the obviously different doctrines, because the teachers you've stacked up for yourselves are looking more and more like the Talmudist "traditions of men" every day... you cannot really make sense of Jesus at all. If you separate them, both of them make sense... minus the teachers of course.

 

[Ligurian]

Like I said, I think selectivity is why John 8:10-11 seems to get repeated far more often than Luke 7:48-50.

Depends upon who's doing the quoting and which gospel they're following. If it's the Kingdom Gospel, they'll be quoting one of the Galilean Apostles... this means John.

 

[ozso]

Why was any of that inconsistent? Jesus said much more than contained in that one verse that you chose to focus on. That's the problem when we become selective in our reading.

Like I said, I think selectivity is why John 8:10-11 seems to get repeated far more often than Luke 7:48-50.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 8:1-5, " There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit."

The righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us because of what Jesus did for us. We're to follow Him now in His way, by the Spirit who has been given to us (Rom 5:5). IOW, Jesus gives us the means to fulfill what the law could not, by our being with Him now rather than apart from Him as before. And so Rom 8:13 continues shortly after in the same vein:
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Gal 5:19-21 describes some of what that means:
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

So:
"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile" Rom 3:22

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

 

[ozso]

Side note: wouldn't it be nice, not to mention Christian, if we all could discuss this topic without appearing to be at each other's throats?

 

[fhansen]

Like I said, I think selectivity is why John 8:10-11 seems to get repeated far more often than Luke 7:48-50.

I think anyone can be purposely selective. But, again, Jesus gave even more conditions than either of those verses contain anyway.

 

[fhansen]

Side note: wouldn't it be nice, not to mention Christian, if we all could discuss this topic without appearing to be at each other's throats?

You're right. I think part of the problem is that we all often feel attacked-while everyone is quite sincere in their beliefs.

 

[Ligurian]

It's interesting that you skipped over 1 John 1.
John never contradicted the basic truth of the Gospel: our sins have been forgiven because of the crucifixion, which paid the penalty for all sin for all people for all time. Please understand this: our sins have been forgiven. Anything to the contrary denies the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice!

BTW, Matthew (and the other gospels) were written to unbelievers, not to Christians.

Which Only Proves The Two Different Gospels. Yours you know.

Versus the one you don't.

One thought, joined by "therefore", makes the Kingdom Law these Commandments.

Matthew 5:18-19 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven...

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.

The Real Unbelievers

Matthew 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. ... 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Real Believers

Matthew 13:10 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? ... 16 But blessed your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Jesus' Disciples Defined

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him,
If ye continue in My word, [then] are ye My disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

And Those Who are Not Disciples

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill Me, because My word hath no place in you.
____________
No two things are farther apart than Grace Gospel and Kingdom Gospel.

 

[Guojing]

It's interesting that you skipped over 1 John 1. John never contradicted the basic truth of the Gospel: our sins have been forgiven because of the crucifixion, which paid the penalty for all sin for all people for all time. Please understand this: our sins have been forgiven. Anything to the contrary denies the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice!

BTW, Matthew (and the other gospels) were written to unbelievers, not to Christians.

Matthew 5:23-24, "So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift." This is about reconciliation with another person with whom you have a disagreement.

Matthew 18:15, "“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you are alone. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother." This is also about reconciliation with another person with whom you have a disagreement.

Nothing here about the forgiveness of sins or keeping His commandments.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

John never actually said your sins are forgiven because of the cross. That comes from people reading Paul into places like John 3:16.

 

[ozso]

Why was any of that inconsistent? Jesus said much more than contained in that one verse that you chose to focus on. That's the problem when we become selective in our reading.

I had a strong hunch when I posted that passage, that you would post some verse or verses to counter it. But I hardly focus on it considering I only posted that passage one other time quite a while ago.

I said presumably, could've said apparently, either way that is the general consensus, biblical and otherwise. Hell is a radical possibility for those who choose to remain apart from God. The church also teaches that "all manner of things shall be well", quoting a 14th century believer who received that simple knowledge from God during the Black Plague when she was burdened with the eternal fate of so many dying around her: that, in the end, all will be satisfied that the right thing has been done. Whooda guessed? It's just that we don't all the ins and outs of how He'll get it done.

There are many who are 100% certain that eternal fiery torment is in store for everyone except the elect, because they've had that doctrine pounded into their head so deeply.

I'm sure He takes everything into account. But are you trying to defend unforgiveness now, that Jesus modeled for us in no uncertain terms? And do we really want to defend sin as well?

Who's unforgiveness? Man's or God's? After all the verse says If you're unforgiving, your Father is unforgiving. But then again Jesus said all sins will forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And were you trying to defend sin when you wrote "for those born again-because we'll continue to sin"? I think we all should try to avoid asking accusatory loaded questions like that.

 

[ozso]

"Which Only Proves The Two Different Gospels.

No two things are farther apart than Grace Gospel and Kingdom Gospel."

That and other things you say make it appear that you got your teaching outside of mainstream theology, so what source does it come from?

 

[ozso]

I think anyone can be purposely selective. But, again, Jesus gave even more conditions than either of those verses contain anyway.

And the body argues over how those conditions apply and to whom and so on.