How to walk in the Spirit.

[fhansen]

You seem to see it as if Christians don't have the threat with having their salvation taken away from them hanging over their heads, they'll be unproductive. Is that really what you require to motivate you to grow spiritually?

We’re obligated to love. If we perceive that as any threat, that’s probably not a bad thing. IOW, if we perceive the truth that our unrighteousness threatens to separate us from God, then yes, we should be concerned. Jesus came to take away our sins, not confirm us in them. As we come to know God better and better our love for Him grows, and our fear only decreases, while we simply increasingly do the right thing anyway. I’ll quote Basil of Caesarea again, a 4th century believer,

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.

And this shows a progression, describing how things generally work. It may well begin with some fear, “the beginning of wisdom.”

 

[ozso]

Im trying to find the common ground. If, in faith we accept Gods offer of forgiveness and enter His family then He changes us, and continues to do so as we continue to want it, and so to cooperate in doing His will. We must remain in Him and He in us. If, instead, we were to persist in sin we will separate ourselves from Him all over again.

As I understand it the difference is you think in terms of loss of salvation, while he thinks in terms of not actually being saved to begin with. Of course both scenarios end in the same result.

And also that he sees your view as being you have to earn your salvation through works, and you see his view as meaning having a license to sin.

 

[fhansen]

As I understand it the difference is you think in terms of loss of salvation, while he thinks in terms of not actually being saved to begin with. Of course both scenarios end in the same result.

And also that he sees your view as being you have to earn your salvation through works, and you see his view as meaning having a license to sin.

I don’t believe he thinks we have a license to sin. But there is some confusion on that point, as to whether or not sin can still separate us from God. I think I understand him to mean that a born again person should have good fruit, but that has no bearing on his salvation.

 

[ozso]

We’re obligated to love. If we perceive that as any threat, that’s probably not a bad thing. IOW, if we perceive the truth that our unrighteousness threatens to separate us from God, then yes, we should be concerned. Jesus came to take away our sins, not confirm us in them. As we come to know God better and better our love for Him grows, and our fear only decreases, while we simply increasingly do the right thing anyway. I’ll quote Basil of Caesarea again, a 4the century believer,

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.

When you write things like "while we simply increasingly do the right thing anyway" it sounds like what Sidon is also saying, along with that quote.

 

[fhansen]

When you write things like "while we simply increasingly do the right thing anyway" it sounds like what Sidon is also saying, along with that quote.

That’s what I mentioned in a following post, but its not so straightforward based on what I’ve read. Either way it’s important how we understand God’s will in all this, and what’s expected of us as His children. And to sum up His will, again, we should agree, but probably won’t, that,
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

 

[ozso]

I don’t believe he thinks we have a license to sin. But there is some confusion on that point, as to whether or not sin can still separate us from God. I think I understand him to mean that a born again person should have good fruit, but that has no bearing on his salvation.

More like no bearing on being born-again as in becoming unborn-again as that's as impossible as becoming unborn once you're born in the physical sense, as I understand it.

 

[fhansen]

More like no bearing on being born-again as in becoming unborn-again as that's as impossible as becoming unborn once you're born in the physical sense, as I understand it.

And that's one the of the very places where novel theology has bred confusion. The idea that we can't die all over again is quite ahistorical as far as Christian teachings are concerned, as well as non- Scriptural.

 

[fhansen]

Let me put it another way. You said actually made righteous. If we are made that way, then isn't that what we are by default?

We can always end up mocking and rejecting the gift, returning to unrighteousness.

 

[Sidon]

---------

 

[Sidon]

If you’re affirming that God will judge us on how we’ve changed, on how we are,

No, not regarding how we've changed, but rather "what we've done in Christ's Body"
2nd Corinthians 5:10

"what we've done in the Body".
This is...what did you do with the Gospel and regarding your service to me.

See, the born again wont be judged for sin in eternity, because Jesus has already been judged for your sin on EARTH on the Cross.
This is why Romans 4:8 tells the BORN AGAIN that God does not charge sin to them.

So, the born again have a life to live, in service of God.
(discipleship)
The time will come when the Born Again meet Jesus for this evaluation of THAT life.

Here is a question that Jesus might ask.
"why is it that you spent all your time on Forums, and never led one Soul to my Salvation".

Let me tell you truly, who the big winners are, at the Judgement seat.
Its the SOUL WINNERS, as there is nothing that you can do, that is more important than leading a person to the Knowledge of Jesus and they become born again.
That's a person who wont burn in the lake of fire, because of YOU.
That's what you accomplished.
So, compare that to 40 yrs making sure you sit "down front", every Sunday morning.

The next thing?
Disciple them, so that they dont come to a forum like this one and meet a deceiver who tries to ruin their faith, by trying to convince them that their Salvation is only as good as they are....

Here is the reality..
Dont spend all your time sinning and confessing, as that is a waste of your discipleship that counts for NOTHING in Eternity.
Instead, spend your time helping people.
The Lost.
The Poor.
The Sick

 

[Sidon]

Read the posts. I didn’t say that you said it. I said it, and you challenged it. .

First of all you left out Jesus The Christ.
So, its not just GOD, that you are to "know".
And once again, we are not born again by knowing them...
WE are born again by being redeemed by them...
So, that is how you "know". them.....you are SAVED by them...

To "Know", in your verse, is the same ISSUE, that is found in this verse.
"Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU">
See that "knew". that is the same as the "KNOW" in John 17:3.

For Jesus to KNOW YOU< You have to be born again, so that He then Lives IN YOU,
That is the "knowing", in your verse.

 

[fhansen]

So, compare that to 40 yrs making sure you sit "down front", every Sunday morning.

And I've never made that point, or had it in mind. Everything I've posted has opposed it in fact. That doesn't mean, however that what we do doesn't count, as you apparently affirm.

Dont spend all your time sinning and confessing, as that is a waste of your discipleship that counts for NOTHING in Eternity.

Sin is not a good thing. When we sin seriously, indicating a real movement away from the love of God, then we should and hopefully will turn back and confess, with a sincere heart, as Jesus tells us to, and He'll purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). That's one of the primary reasons He came after all, to take away sins as He sets us on the path of love, the path we'll hopefully remain on.

Instead, spend your time helping people.
The Lost.
The Poor.
The Sick

Yes, that love is the indicator of one who is of God. And that love will be the basis of our judgment. Everything else is pretty much talk after all.

 

[fhansen]

First of all you left out Jesus The Christ.
So, its not just GOD, that you are to "know".

Hmm, Jesus is God. And as I've maintained over and over, the only way we even know the true God is by knowing God the Son.

And, yes, to know Him is to have eternal life because to truly know Him is to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him-it cannot be helped; the more we know Him the more we love Him. That love brings faith to completion. With it, all of the justice, all that man was made for, is attained.

To walk in the Spirit is to walk in love of God and neighbor.

 

[Sidon]

then we should and hopefully will turn back and confess, with a sincere heart, as Jesus tells us to, and He'll purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). .

Good, you explained the error perfectly, that so many have, who do not understand the Blood Atonement.
Like you, for example.
Notice, you said....>if we confess, then God will purify us"....

Well, He already did that, if you are born again.
Being born again, is the proof you are purified and made holy.
See, when you are born again, the "one time eternal sacrifice" that is GOD's BLOOD, , purifies, and that is why the born again, are "MADE RIGHTEOUS" and how they are made righteous.
Notice, the Sacrifice of GOD, on the CROSS< is a ONE TIME Sacrifice.
You are saved, once.
You are born again, once.

Then notice, in Jn 1:9, these unbelievers are being "forgiven".

What does that all mean?
It means that if a born again person teaches that you are forgiven over and over, then that means "the one time eternal sacrifice" that is applied to you, is being misrepresented as having to forgive over and over and over, based on someone's confessing to cause it to happen, again, and again.

That is not Salvation.
Salvation is not....>"Jesus saved me, then when i need to be FORGIVEN AGAIN, i go and CONFESS".
See, there is no "forgiven again".
There is only "made Righteous" and kept so by the BLood Atonement.

You, and others here, are trying to see the verse as....>"those born again, need to be forgiven over and over".
And that is NOT How the Blood Atonement works.
See, the BORN AGAIN are ALWAYS AND FOREVER FORGIVEN, by the, "one time eternal sacrifice" that was applied to them as the BLOOD ATONEMENT, which is why they became BORN AGAIN.

John 1:9 is talking to people who need to be FORGIVEN, because they aren't.
The born again, do not need to be forgiven , as the BORN AGAIN are ALWAYS FORGIVEN, and always "Made RIGHTEOUS".
The Born again, have BECOME...>"the Righteousness OF GOD.....>IN CHRIST".
So, that is their salvaiton.
That is their ETERNAL SITUATION.
The born again are always """" THE RIGHTEOUSNESS""".....see that ?

This means that you dont have to be forgiven, anymore, as you are already "the righteousness of God IN Christ".
So, if you are confessing to be "re-forgiven"< then you are foolish playing a game with yourself that is the result of not understanding Salvation, or the Blood Atonement.

Now why do you think the way you think, reader, that causes you to believe you have to go and be "re-forgiven", 20x a month?
Why?
Its because you see yourself NOT as God sees you.
You see yourself as that "MIND" that has those THOUGHTS, as the REAL YOU.
And in Fact, the real you, is not that mind of flesh, .. The real you is the NEW CREATiON IN CHRIST, who is eternally "One with God'" and Made Righteous.

Listen,
When you read that you are "One with God">..
When you read "as Jesus IS, so are the Born again"..
Does that sound like you have SIN, you need to confess?
And the reason you do, is because you see yourself as the OLD MAN, the SINNER, instead of seeing yourself, as the NEW CREATION.
So, when you can come to see yourself as the NEW CREATION< you will then stop the confessing and sinning., as your mind will be different, then it is now.
It will be "renewed"

"walking in the Spirit", as my other Thread explained, is to be found with the RENEWED MIND.
And this MIND< does not SEE YOURSELF< as a sinner, or a person needing to be forgiven over and over.
The New Mind, that is renewed, will SEE only that you are "made Righteous", and are "in CHRIST"< and are "ONE WITH GOD">
When you can SEE THIS, then you have finally entered the revelation of God's Grace.

 

[fhansen]

Well, He already did that, if you are born again.
Being born again, is the proof you are purified and made holy.

This is the error-in thinking that we're holy when, in truth, we know better.

And that's why I said previously, "salvation has absolutely and exactly nothing to do with how we "see" ourselves, but everything to do with how we are".

And that's why I think its important that we hold that, with justification, that new state of justice for man involves not only forgiveness of sin but also intrinsically includes actual, personal righteousness given, not only imputed. A righteousness we can now live and walk in, express and grow in, or not. As an example:
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

To the extent we still struggle with sin we show that our faith, hope, and love are not complete, meaning we're not as "sold out" to God as we might wish to think, meaning we can still turn away from Him; we haven't fully chosen good over evil. He wants us there, however, and will get us there to the extent that we continue to want it too, and remain in Him.

 

[Clare73]

Your use of the term "easy believism" along with the verses you posted, is usually used by those espousing the Protestant version (usually called Lordship Salvation) of what fhansen has been saying regarding Catholic doctrine of justification and salvation. So I'm not sure what you're arguing with regarding what he's been saying.

Our discussion is regarding the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind in Romans 5:12-19, whereby all mankind is born condemnded (Romans 5:19) and by nature (birth) objects of wrath
(Ephesians 2:3), hence the gospel.
His tradition denies this imputation.

 

[fhansen]

How many think they're being righteous and obedient, when they're not really? Or are falling short of the mark and what is the mark?

God's the judge. How many might think it doesn't matter to Him if we're being righteous or obedient at all, when it does?

He didn't work to finally bring man to the point where we're given the power or ability to obey, to overcome the sin that earned man death to begin with, only to say, 'Nah, never mind, it doesn't matter anymore; sin, injustice, just doesn't bother or offend Me now'. He proves that He loves us in spite of our sin, dying for us while we're yet sinners, but not to leave us as such but to lift us from that pit, that slavery, and to love as He does.

It's ok of we have obligation, and it's ok if it's a process; God's producing something in all this, something better and grander than He began with and not just saving a portion of otherwise worthless sinners. And He's on our side, always trustworthy and true. We're still the wildcard-but He'll get us there as long as we also participate- and endure to the end.

 

[Clare73]

"If you have a conscience and are born again" seems vague to me. I get if you are born again. It's what's added to being born again determining salvation that's unclear. For instance most everyone has a conscience. But some have a better conscience than others.

Nothing is being added that doesn't come with salvation; i.e., obedience.

The lack of obedience serves only as evidence of lack of salvation, since they come together.
The practice of obedience is proof of nothing.

All we have on earth is the evidence. Only God knows the proof.

And the NT is clear about what constitutes evidence, without which evidence is indicated (not proven)
no salvation.

 

[Ligurian]

And yet sanctification is more than works, but holiness, inner change, most notably the virtue called love which happens to produce works by its nature. That righteousness should define the justice or righteousness of justification, and explain why a believer begins to sin less and help his neighbor more, such things as he must do to inherit eternal life. As we know from Heb 12:14 and elsewhere
"...without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Heck, God won't even forgive us our sins unless we forgive others (Matt 6:15), such is His demand that we follow Him in His love and mercy. And who would or should argue against such a righteous demand anyway? Again, as James tells us,
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

Faith is the doorway to righteousness; it doesn't define it. And all of this, whether faith or holiness and righteousness and love and the works they produce are all gifts of grace flowing from the one same Source anyway.

I've always thought of believe as an ongoing process... believe and keep believing. If you believe Jesus, you do what He tells you to do. If Abram had claimed to believe God, but didn't offer up Isaac as God commanded, then he wasn't really a believer and he never would have been considered faithful. Faith without works is the fig tree without any figs that Jesus caused to wither and die. Everything Jesus said and did are lessons upon lessons, precept upon precept.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
John. 15:8 Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples.
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

These are the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, and not all men can see them. To those of us who do understand, Jesus brought grace for grace. As you pointed out, we will not be forgiven if we do not forgive. This is the day of salvation, when God is allowing us to decide what to believe about His character. This period of grace is given to us to become the church of Philadelphia which has kept Jesus' word and has not denied Jesus' authority. "Last of all He sent His Son, saying they will reverence My Son."

When their hearts became hard, they chose Moses over God, they chose kings over God, they chose temples over God, they chose burnt offerings over the sure mercies of David. And Moses allowed them to put aside their wives for reasons other than divorce, thus they were tested by God. The God who tested Israel certainly tests His church "to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul."

 

[Ligurian]

Paul is only saying, 'Look, people, removing a little piece of flesh from your body does not make you holy and [...]

Then once you receive this gift of righteousness [...]

Circumcision was Abram signing-on to the covenant by his own flesh and blood.
Jesus ratified the New Covenant the same way; by bread and wine and by flesh and blood.

The Greek word Righteousness, and it's root word.

dikaiosune=Equity, righteousness; from dikaios=equitable, righteous; from dike=just, right; from deiknuo=show.

Matt.6:33 But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Rev.16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Rev.15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

John2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto Him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?