How to walk in the Spirit.

[ozso]

Well folks we’ve established that Sidon teaches that if a person who believes that Jesus paid for all his sins is killed in the act of killing Christians he’s still saved and now a person doesn’t even have to believe as long as he believed at some point in his life he is saved. WOW talk about widening that narrow path. I mean it doesn’t get much wider than this brothers & sisters. So I say to you all remember Paul’s words in Ephesians 5:6-7

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No one, not even the apostles, will escape Judgement.

 

[fhansen]

You were referring to my teaching that we are made righteous by the Gift of Righteousness, which is the blood atonement.

You referred to it as "pretense".

Did you want to do it again?
Or just deny that you did it , again?

Yes, of course I'll deny that-because its nonsense. Let me put it this way: salvation has absolutely and exactly nothing to do with how we "see" ourselves, but everything to do with how we are.

You're novel teaching, of how one walks in the Spirit, is what I've been denying since the beginning. And you already know that, unless you wish to deny that now.

 

[fhansen]

Let me put it another way. You said actually made righteous. If we are made that way, then isn't that what we are by default?

I'm not sure what you mean by default, but if sins are only forgiven, and righteousness is only imputed to us, then that's what we would be: forgiven sinners, perhaps "snow-covered dung-heaps" as they say, I guess. The righteousness God gives us is generally taught to be the virtues of faith, hope, and love, with love by far the end goal and most important.

 

[Clare73]

That leaves only the second reason, which I see actually demonstrated, not only regarding
justification (dikaioo) and its Greek definition: "pronounced righteous, acquitted of guilt"
(Romans 4:25, Romans 5:18), but also in

failure to grasp the exact and direct imputation of Adam's sin presented in Romans 5:18-19.

It seems to me like the idea is we're still supposed to be guilty and we have to atone our guilt by living a righteous life filled with works. And then we have to wait until we stand before God to see if we did a good enough job.

Are you referring to his doctrine, or mine?
I will respond as though it were to mine.

My response quoted above is to why his denomination misunderstands justification.

Does sanctification seem that way to you?
The gospel is not easy believism.

The debt/penalty for our sin has been paid by Jesus through our faith in him.
We are declared in permanent right standing with God's justice, never to be condemened by him again.
We are predestined to be transformed (Romans 8:29) and are being transformed (2 Corinthians 3:18), into the likeness of his Son.
He saved us for a reason--to be holy (Hebrews 12:14)
We are adopted sons of God and Christ's adopted brothers. We are to grow in the family likeness, to be pleasing to our Father.
We are everywhere commanded to grow in holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit:

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)."
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

Have you misunderstood the gospel?
(Or am I misunderstanding you and you're referring to his dotrine?)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

 

[fhansen]

Im very close to God.
How close?
Jesus lives in me, and so does Father God.
And how close am i to them?
Im "ONE with God, in Christ".
I exist Spiritually inside God, Himself.
So yeah, i "know" Him.

And I'm not disbelieving you. But then you should understand what it means to say that eternal life is to know God and his Son, and yet you challenged me on that for some reason in your post #498.

 

[fhansen]

Do you not understand that holiness, inner change are the result of the works of obedience/sanctification in the Holy Spirit?

I do not have a clear understanding of your response to the exegesis of Romans 5:18-19,
(post #423) How to walk in the Spirit, regarding the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.
Could you clarify that for me?

That leaves only the second reason, which I see actually demonstrated, not only regarding

justification (dikaioo) and its Greek definition: "pronounced righteous, acquitted of guilt"
(Romans 4:25, Romans 5:18), but also in

failure to grasp the exact and direct imputation of Adam's sin presented in Romans 5:18-19.

So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. Rom 5:18-19
Well, dikaioo can mean to render righteous, i.e. make righteous-so your insistence on it absolutely having to mean a strictly declared righteousness or acquittal of unrighteousness doesn't automatically follow, and especially in light of all the other passages that speak of a real righteousness now given IMO. And you're assuming that the concept of "imputed" necessarily fits with Rom 5:18-19. Yes, all fell with Adam. But that doesn't mean that his sin was only imputed to us. We all genuinely inherited the sin, the unjust state sometimes known as "original sin". IOW, fallen man is truly born into a state of being that is out of line with God's will for man, that of being spiritually separated from, out of communion with, Him: lost, dead, sick. To rectify this situation Jesus comes and reveals the true face of God so that we may believe in and turn back to Him, after suffering life in exile from the God whom Adam rejected. Reconciliation is accomplished and man is justified- not merely imputed to be justified. Through the unrighteous act of the one man Adam all were made unrighteous and through the righteous act of the one man Jesus, all are made righteous.

Either way, if you agree that sanctification begins taking place immediately for the justified one and that said holiness is necessary for realizing eternal life, then we wouldn't be so far off.

 

[fhansen]

It seems to me like the idea is we're still supposed to be guilty and we have to atone our guilt by living a righteous life filled with works. And then we have to wait until we stand before God to see if we did a good enough job.

Catholicism, for its part, teaches that Christ, alone, atoned for our sins. With a contrite and repentant heart (whether needed before or again after one is justified) that atonement becomes our blessing. Righteous acts are simply the fruit of our love but either way righteousness is expected, demanded, not as atonement but as the requirement for a child of God. Either way the righteousness come from Him, and must be expressed.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:4-6

 

[ozso]

Are you referring to his doctrine, or mine?
I will respond as though it were to mine.

My response quoted above is to why his denomination misunderstands justification.

Does sanctification seem that way to you?
The gospel is not easy believism.

The debt/penalty for our sin has been paid by Jesus through our faith in him.
We are declared in permanent right standing with God's justice, never to be condemened by him again.
We are predestined to be transformed (Romans 8:29) and are being transformed (2 Corinthians 3:18), into the likeness of his Son.
He saved us for a reason--to be holy (Hebrews 12:14)
We are adopted sons of God and Christ's adopted brothers. We are to grow in the family likeness, to be pleasing to our Father.
We are everywhere commanded to grow in holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit:

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness. (Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)."
(Ephesians 5:9)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

Have you misunderstood the gospel?
(Or am I misunderstanding you and you're referring to his dotrine?)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

Your use of the term "easy believism" along with the verses you posted, is usually used by those espousing the Protestant version (usually called Lordship Salvation) of what fhansen has been saying regarding Catholic doctrine of justification and salvation. So I'm not sure what you're arguing with regarding what he's been saying. They both seem to come down salvation being based on the believer's level of commitment, obedience and perseverance. Which has always confused me, because those I know of who teach Lordship Salvation say they are against the idea of salvation being based on works and performance. It just doesn't add up to me and seems like trying to have it both ways.

 

[ozso]

Catholicism, for its part, teaches that Christ, alone, atoned for our sins. With a contrite and repentant heart (whether needed before or again after one is justified) that atonement becomes our blessing. Righteous acts are simply the fruit of our love but either way righteousness is expected, demanded, not as atonement but as the requirement for a child of God. Either way the righteousness come from Him, and must be expressed.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:4-6

Atonement or requirement seems to come out to the same thing. That what what is given to us by God and Christ's finished work on the cross is null and void to us if we don't behave ourselves and don't perform at a certain level.

 

[Clare73]

Your use of the term "easy believism" along with the verses you posted, is usually used by those espousing the Protestant version (usually called Lordship Salvation) of what fhansen has been saying regarding Catholic doctrine of justification and salvation. So I'm not sure what you're arguing with regarding what he's been saying.

They both seem to come down salvation being based on the believer's level of commitment, obedience and perseverance.

Because it is the nature of salvation to do these things.

Which has always confused me, because those I know of who teach Lordship Salvation say they are against the idea of salvation being based on works and performance. It just doesn't add up to me and seems like trying to have it both ways.

It's the same principle as perseverance.
If you don't persevere it's because you were never saved in the first place; i.e., perseverence is the evidence that you were born again and are saved.

"Lordship Salvation" is simply evidence that you are saved.
Without it is evidence that you are not.

But neither perseverance nor "Lordship Salvation" saves, just as works do not save (Ephesians 2:8-9), but are necessary for growth in sanctification, which also does not save, but is evidence that you are saved.

Translate: It is the nature of the saved to do these things.

Limping analogy: It is the nature of a duck to fly and to swim.
Flying does not make him a duck, but it is part of the evidence that he is a duck.
If it can't fly, we know it's not a duck.

 

[ozso]

It's the same principle as perseverance.
If you don't persevere it's because you were never saved in the first place; i,e., perseverence is the evidence that you were born again and are saved.

"Lordship Salvation" is simply evidence that you are saved.
Without it is evidence that you are not.

But neither perseverance nor "Lordship Salvation" saves, just as works do not save (Ephesians 2:8-9), but are necessary for growth in sanctification, which also does not save, but is evidence that you are saved.

Translate: It is the nature of the saved to do these things.

It still seems to come down to determining salvation based on performance.

 

[Clare73]

It still seems to come down to determining salvation based on performance.

No, performance is evidence, not proof.

There are many performers who are not saved.

But there are no saved who are not performers.

All performers are not saved.
But all saved are performers.

 

[ozso]

No, performance is evidence, not proof.

There are many performers who are not saved.

But there are no saved who are not performers.

All performers are not saved.
But all saved are performers.

So what level of performance establishes evidence?

 

[Clare73]

So what level of performance establishes evidence?

Simple obedience to what you know to do.

 

[ozso]

Simple obedience to what you know to do.

That seems pretty vague regarding something so important. Explanations seem to range from total unwavering obedience to simply the desire to obey.

 

[fhansen]

Atonement or requirement seems to come out to the same thing. That what what is given to us by God and Christ's finished work on the cross is null and void to us if we don't behave ourselves and don't perform at a certain level.

So sin should be ok now? Or to put it a different way, is it now wrong for love, which we've finally been given by the Spirit, to be an obligation for man? Should we want all sins, regardless of how heinous, to be allowable under the New Covenant, with no obligation to refrain? Is moral obligation or accountability all of a sudden bad now? And unnecessary- because we believe in God???

I'm not saying that's how you think-only that these questions present the inevitable flip side of your statement. Does no one want the responsibility of having to will the right thing? God wants us to. Love in us wills the same thing as God, so that our righteousness and righteous behavior flow freely and willingly to the extent that we love. Sinlessness and righteous acts are only a sort of by-product of love, because the people who love will do them. Yes, sorry, we're obligated to do the right thing-we're obligated to love-otherwise nothing's changed, there's no net improvement in the world after Christ's sacrifice. It's an easy obligation; Jesus' yoke is light. There are plenty of people out there doing the wrong thing-more and more it seems. The right thing is very simple, and not a hard command, especially with His help,

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:36-40

Otherwise I might be sensing shades of Is 5:20 loitering around somewhere again!!??:
"Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness"

 

[Clare73]

That seems pretty vague regarding something so important. Explanations seem to range from total unwavering obedience to simply the desire to obey.

There's nothing vague about it, if you have a conscience and are born again.

It's not complicated.

 

[fhansen]

It still seems to come down to determining salvation based on performance.

If I may, as I stated before, some people will feed the hungry to try to impress God while others will do so because they love. And the latter, like the sheep in Matt 25, may not even know they were doing the right thing, or pleasing God, but He will be pleased by them.

"People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Sam 16:7

God knows and judges by the heart; we can't do that so well so we're sort of forced to judge by appearances. So we can't always know a persons true motivations even though we should applaud righteous behavior and certainty not automatically doubt it every time we see it.

 

[ozso]

There's nothing vague about it, if you have a conscience and are born again.

It's not complicated.

"If you have a conscience and are born again" seems vague to me. I get if you are born again. It's what's added to being born again determining salvation that's unclear. For instance most everyone has a conscience. But some have a better conscience than others.

 

[ozso]

If I may, as I stated before, some people will feed the hungry to try to impress God while others will do so because they love. And the latter, like the sheep in Matt 25, may not even know they were doing the right thing, or pleasing God, but He will be pleased by them.

"People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Sam 16:7

God knows and judges by the heart; we can't do that so well so we're sort of forced to judge by appearances. So we can't always know a persons true motivations even though we should applaud righteous behavior and certainty not automatically doubt it every time we see it.

That's been the way I have seen it all along. That no matter what we do or how we appear, God sees past all that. Like when it's just you and God alone together, what does God see when He looks at you. Really more like looks into you.

But even that carries uncertainty because how you see yourself and how God sees you can be two very different things. How many think they're being righteous and obedient, when they're not really? Or are falling short of the mark and what is the mark?