How to walk in the Spirit.

[Sidon]

I haven't read the book of Mormon as far as I can remember. But it is Catholic doctrine, solid Catholic doctrine. Once born again, we work out or salvation, with at least a healthy degree of fear and trembling. We're now empowered by the Holy Spirit to live righteously but as I said the will of man is still involved. Read the canons of the second Council of Orange sometime when you get a chance all the way through Conclusions and then you'll better understand Catholic teaching.

So, what you are still on the road to "rightly dividing", is something very simple.
yet, not understood yet.

Its this..

Discipleship, is not Salvation.

Salvation is what God provided as His own Blood, Death, and Resurrection.
That is Salvation.
You have no part in that, unless you have the nail scars., and you dont.

So, just SEE that, as Salvation.

Now, talk about discipleship all you want.
Keep those commandments.
Get in that water.
Present that body a living sacrifice.
Tithe.
Give the Poor.
Do all those SELF EFFORT WORKS.

But always understand that all that stuff .... GOD DOES NOT DO.
That is because that stuff is not SALVATiON.
Its discipleship, and only you do that part.

Just see the difference, the distinction, and then you wont be found trying to keep yourself saved any longer.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You cut and pasted a lot of verse, and yet nowhere in any of it, does it talk abut "focusing on the Spirit".
And then you say, this is your proof?

So, What you did was post my Thread, as 2 verses, found in your collection of verses.

"be renewed in the Spirit of your mind". "and put on the new self".

See those 2 verses you posted.?

I have a Thread regarding TRANSFORMATION< that details how to ""put on the new SELF".
I explain how.

And you've been on my Walking in the Spirit Thread and one other that details how to "renew your mind".

I explain how.

Are you aware that the title of Ephesians 4:17-32 and on into Ephesians 5:1-20 is “The Christian Walk”? When Paul says in verse 30 “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit” what this means is to set your mind on the Spirit and not on the flesh or the things of this world. In other words focus on the things of the Spirit. Just because the word “focus” is not in the chapter doesn’t mean that it is not being related to. The word focus means the center of interest or activity. What Paul is essentially saying in these verses is to adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That’s exactly what it means to “not grieve the Holy Spirit”. The Holy Spirit is grieved when we don’t do what He tells us. In order to do what the Spirit is telling us we must listen to Him. Hence “focus on the Spirit”, center our interest or activity in the Holy Spirit. It’s amazing how your mind can be so imaginative and creative to come up with that explanation of Galatians 5:4 but you can’t seem to muster up the creativity or imagination to understand something as clearly indicated in Ephesians 4 as “focus on the Spirit”. I’m fully confident that you could in fact see what I’ve been saying if you wanted to because it’s nowhere as ambiguous as your explanation of Galatians 5:4. I mean the reach on that one was WAAAAAYYYY out there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So, what you are still on the road to "rightly dividing", is something very simple.
yet, not understood yet.

Its this..

Discipleship, is not Salvation.

Salvation is what God provided as His own Blood, Death, and Resurrection.
That is Salvation.
You have no part in that, unless you have the nail scars., and you dont.

So, just SEE that, as Salvation.

Now, talk about discipleship all you want.
Keep those commandments.
Get in that water.
Present that body a living sacrifice.
Tithe.
Give the Poor.
Do all those SELF EFFORT WORKS.

But always understand that all that stuff .... GOD DOES NOT DO.
That is because that stuff is not SALVATiON.
Its discipleship, and only you do that part.

Just see the difference, the distinction, and then you wont be found trying to keep yourself saved any longer.

So what your saying is that you don’t have to be a disciple of Christ to be saved. He said “My sheep hear and follow”. Your not even listening, much less hearing. You fully missed the message in Matthew 7:21-27.

 

[fhansen]

So, what you are still on the road to "rightly dividing", is something very simple.
yet, not understood yet.

Its this..

Discipleship, is not Salvation.

Salvation is what God provided as His own Blood, Death, and Resurrection.
That is Salvation.
You have no part in that, unless you have the nail scars., and you dont.

So, just SEE that, as Salvation.

Now, talk about discipleship all you want.
Keep those commandments.
Get in that water.
Present that body a living sacrifice.
Tithe.
Give the Poor.
Do all those SELF EFFORT WORKS.

But always understand that all that stuff .... GOD DOES NOT DO.
That is because that stuff is not SALVATiON.
Its discipleship, and only you do that part.

Just see the difference, the distinction, and then you wont be found trying to keep yourself saved any longer.

The second Council of Orange:
The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

It's a short read that everyone should undertake. It should enhance your understanding of the Gospel

 

[Sidon]

Are you aware that the title of Ephesians 4:17-32 and on into Ephesians 5:1-20 is “The Christian Walk”? When Paul says in verse 30 “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit” what this means is to set your mind on the Spirit

I use a few Bibles, in my lifetime, and none of them have a title, that was written originally by any Apostle., as the Heading of a Chapter.
Your bible seems to have headings or titles, per chapter.....and that makes it a study bible, probably,????????? which is a good thing, if its a good study bible.. however, those Titles you list were added by the bible's publisher.

Also, there are many ways to grieve the Spirit of God., BNR32FAN.

One is to try to talk someone out of real faith and into lost faith.
This is a person who tries to convince real believers that they can lose their salvation.
That one is a big Grieve for the Holy Spirit.

Here is one.. Say you are wanting to spend the rent money, on more Gambling.
Your baby is hungry, and there is no food.
So, if you are born again, and you choose to spend the money on a gambling site, the HS in you, that has been stinging your conscience about this, will be grieved.

Another way to grieve the Holy Spirit, is to see someone really poor, and you look the other way, when you have the money and they have the need.
That grieves the HS.

What's the worst way the Grieve the Holy Spirit?
Its to hear the Gospel, over and over, and you KNOW its true, but you decide to keep waiting to answer the call and trust in Christ.
That's the worse one, as that is to keep committing the unpardonable sin, as you can't be forgiven, if you reject forgiveness.
John 3:36
Everyone that went to hell today, at some point, grieved the Holy Spirit, and would not come to the Cross and receive God's "gift of Salvation" who is Jesus The Christ.
This ONE SIN< is why you go to Hell, as its the only sin that God can't forgive on this earth or in eternity, and that is because the person refused His forgiveness.

 

[Sidon]

So what your saying is that you don’t have to be a disciple of Christ to be saved. He said “My sheep hear and follow”. Your not even listening, much less hearing. You fully missed the message in Matthew 7:21-27.

No.
I'm saying that you become a disciple of Christ BECAUSE you are born again.
That starts the discipleship.

Think of it like this....
Do you put on the Uniform before you Join the Army?
Or do you put it on because you have joined up? (Born again)
= Discipleship .

We are born again, so we joined up, and now we put on our uniform, which is our discipleship.

Also, there is "depart from me, i never knew you" fake discipleship, where you have "do gooders" "church members"..who are are water baptized but not born again, who try to be good, "like Christ", and die and go to hell.
Why?
Because they were never born again.
When Jesus tells some..."i never knew you", its because He never lived IN THEM, and they were never "ONE with GOD and Christ".
They are religious but lost..

Jesus said....>"you must be born again".
He never said you must be a disciple.

Now lets look at your verse., ok?
Matthew 7:21.
We can stop right there, as that is the answer.
Notice that Jesus is giving the understanding of HOW to enter the Kingdom Of Heaven.
He says YOU have to do His Father's WILL.

Not your will.
Not mine.
Not the Pope's.
Not Billy Graham's.

"GOD's WILL", says Jesus, you must do, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And you must do this to enter the Kingdom of God, also.

What is God's work?
Its the same as His Will.
The work of God and the WILL of God, is....>"that you believe on JESUS whom God sent".

See that "BELIEVE ON"?
That is God's will .
That is John 3:16.
That is "All who call on the name of Jesus shall be SAVED".
That is : "justification by faith".
That is, "as many as Believed in Jesus, ... Jesus gives to them ETERNAL LIFE"
That is.. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy GOD saved us"""

See all that?
That is God's WILL for every person.

 

[Sidon]

The second Council of Orange:
The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

It's a short read that everyone should undertake. It should enhance your understanding of the Gospel

Thanks.

However, im already linked to Pauline Theology.
So, let me stay with what Jesus gave Paul.
And something to notice.
The Church you are referring to, updates their theology.
You gave us the 2nd Update, the rewrite, the change, the adjustment.
Whereas, Paul got it right the first time, and the NT is His 1st and Only Version.
Paul wrote most of the NT< and all the Church Doctrine.

 

[ozso]

Ive already shown you this and you still refuse to see it.

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. B E ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The whole point of this message is to focus on the Spirit and adhere to His guidance.

But as far as I can see it's not saying if we fail to do so we lose our salvation.

It seems the message is summed up in: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption".

 

[BNR32FAN]

I use a few Bibles, in my lifetime, and none of them have a title, that was written originally by any Apostle., as the Heading of a Chapter.
Your bible seems to have headings or titles, per chapter.....and that makes it a study bible, probably,????????? which is a good thing, if its a good study bible.. however, those Titles you list were added by the bible's publisher.

I don’t disagree with what you’ve said here but my point was to show that I’m not the only one who sees these chapters as Paul explaining how to walk in the Spirit. I know there were no chapters or titles in the gospel accounts nor the epistles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One is to try to talk someone out of real faith and into lost faith.
This is a person who tries to convince real believers that they can lose their salvation.
That one is a big Grieve for the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of eternal security was not formulated until the 16th century. No church before the 16th century taught eternal security. As I stated before I’ve quoted many scriptures proving that a saved individual can lose their salvation both from the apostles and from Christ Himself and you dismissed them as being merely “symbolic” and not usable for formulating doctrines, which I strongly disagree. “Man does not live by bread alone but from every word that comes from God”. At every turn you reject the idea that obedience to God is necessary for salvation and even went so far as to say that a person killed in the process of killing Christians would still be saved. So while I may not be able to convince you, there are others who will read this debate and be able to make a better decision for their self on what the word of God truly teaches.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What's the worst way the Grieve the Holy Spirit?
Its to hear the Gospel, over and over, and you KNOW its true, but you decide to keep waiting to answer the call and trust in Christ.
That's the worse one, as that is to keep committing the unpardonable sin, as you can't be forgiven, if you reject forgiveness.
John 3:36
Everyone that went to hell today, at some point, grieved the Holy Spirit, and would not come to the Cross and receive God's "gift of Salvation" who is Jesus The Christ.
This ONE SIN< is why you go to Hell, as its the only sin that God can't forgive on this earth or in eternity, and that is because the person refused His forgiveness.

John 3:36 specifically states “the one who does not obey the Son will not see life but the wrath of God remains on him”.


“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.

 

[pescador]

John 3:36 specifically states “the one who does not obey the Son will not see life but the wrath of God remains on him”.


“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.

Too long a post!

 

[ozso]

I haven't read the book of Mormon as far as I can remember. But it is Catholic doctrine, solid Catholic doctrine. Once born again, we work out or salvation, with at least a healthy degree of fear and trembling. We're now empowered by the Holy Spirit to live righteously but as I said the will of man is still involved. Read the canons of the second Council of Orange sometime when you get a chance all the way through Conclusions and then you'll better understand Catholic teaching.

The OP seems more interested in what Paul wrote, than going by what Augustine came up with.

 

[fhansen]

The OP seems more interested in what Paul wrote, than going by what Augustine came up with.

Actually he's more interested in the novel understanding he came up with (and the understanding of those he's been influenced by) regarding what Paul wrote. And would be better off listening to Augustine instead IMO, who's opinion on this matter neither of you apparently know anyway, rather than to those other notions.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks.

However, im already linked to Pauline Theology.
So, let me stay with what Jesus gave Paul.
And something to notice.
The Church you are referring to, updates their theology.
You gave us the 2nd Update, the rewrite, the change, the adjustment.
Whereas, Paul got it right the first time, and the NT is His 1st and Only Version.
Paul wrote most of the NT< and all the Church Doctrine.

Well, not everyone understands "Pauline theology" the same. Either way his theology aligns perfectly with that of Jesus, James, John, et al. We need to be linked to the Truth. And, as Augustine once put it, “All truth is God’s truth.” God is the God of truth; He is the truth as we all know. So we should welcome truth from wherever it may be found, even the less than comfortable truth.

And Augustine, much like Paul, was also battling legalism, going by the name of Pelagianism. So he developed his teachings on grace, which shares much in common with Paul’s teachings on faith. And, in 529, about 75 years or so after Augustine wrote, the church felt that it was of benefit to lay down its teachings on grace at the 2nd Council of Orange-and employed Augustine's concepts mainly, all or most of which you'd probably agree with. Much of this has impacted Christianity over the centuries to this day, Protestants and Catholics alike-whether we know it or not. And it’s always better to know. But whenever we think we already know, then we’re less likely to learn and know more. Oh well-it’s only truth.

Here's some Pauline theology, summarizing his position:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“...just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

“And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Again, the new covenant is not about excusing man from his obligation to be righteous, but about providing him the authentic means to finally achieve it, with God rather than on his own. The NC is all about communion with God first of all, which, incidentally, happens to fulfill the first three of the Ten Commandments- and the Greatest Commandment.

 

[ozso]

Actually he's more interested in the novel understanding he came up with (and the understanding of those he's been influenced by) regarding what Paul wrote. And would be better off listening to Augustine instead IMO, who's opinion on this matter neither of you apparently know anyway, rather than to those other notions.

You're saying that because you've been indoctrinated in Catholicism. So you talking about others being influenced seems a pot and kettle thing. As to Augustine, I could have written a thesis on him for all you know. For one thing I know that even though he didn't teach it, the doctrine of eternal security stems from Augustine's theology.

 

[ozso]

.

 

[ozso]

So what your saying is that you don’t have to be a disciple of Christ to be saved. He said “My sheep hear and follow”. Your not even listening, much less hearing. You fully missed the message in Matthew 7:21-27.

I don't understand why that passage is used by those who say doing works is a part of salvation, because it's not about a lack of works. Rather it's about the opposite of that.

"Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?"

"And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

That seems to speak against trying to make works a part of salvation. And therefore seems to support Sidon's argument rather than yours.

(Personally I don't think it applies to either his argument or yours, because I think it's about false teachers who put on a big show for personal gain like some millionaire televangelist I know of).

 

[fhansen]

You're saying that because you've been indoctrinated in Catholicism.

I was "indoctrinated" in-or was taught anyway-both formulas on justification: Catholic and Protestant. I was raised Catholic but left the church early on, honestly not knowing if the Christian message in general was true or not. I wore out several bibles in the following years though, after searching for truth in a variety of places, and adopted the position of Protestantism: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide most notably. I understood the need for a direct relationship with God. And I also realized early that His purpose was to do what I could not do on my own, to accomplish true righteousness in me. Jer 31:33-34 brought me back to Christianity probably more than any other passage. But I never thought I'd ever enter a Catholic Church again-as a member!!! That was to occur some 25 years later-and I was quite anti-Catholic at one time. But I was never against hearing the other side and studying "apostate literature", as JWs call non-JW material -I even studied some of their stuff once, on a challenge, just to give them a fair chance too.

But when I began to study church history, ECFs, theology, conciliar decrees, etc, something began to dawn on me, slowly, and that was that the Catholic church did teach this direct and intimate relationship between the individual and God, sometimes called communion, and, to my great surprise, taught Jer 31:33-34 as I already understood it to mean. I just had to seek and study for myself, which is how I became Christian to begin with. Simultaneously it became apparent that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura was pretty much a joke, with often a variety of plausible human interpretations resulting, all claiming to be Spirit-led while often conflicting with each other 180 degrees.

Then I had to begin to truly recognize and admit to my own failings as a human, in order to better understand how church members, including leaders, can often miss the mark in miserable ways. That at least released me from the priggish superiority complex I'd been attracted to for quite a few years. After that the teachings were the most central and crucial matter to be considered-and the Catholic teachings on justification were far and away more sound and balanced-as well as in line with the ECFs, the other ancient churches in the east, and Scripture-compared to the Protestant position IMO, and the Protestant position isn't unified anyway, with differences, for example, in the understanding of Sola Fide and how that doctrine should play out in a believer's life. The Catholic Church constitutes our common Christian ancestral lineage in the west-and there never was a good reason to disassociate from her-as I came to view the matter anyway.

 

[ozso]

I was "indoctrinated" in-or was taught anyway-both formulas on justification: Catholic and Protestant. I was raised Catholic but left the church early on, honestly not knowing if the Christian message in general was true or not. I wore out several bibles in the following years though, after searching for truth in a variety of places, and adopted the position of Protestantism: Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide most notably. I understood the need for a direct relationship with God. And I also realized early that His purpose was to do what I could not do on my own, to accomplish true righteousness in me. Jer 31:33-34 brought me back to Christianity probably more than any other passage. But I never thought I'd ever enter a Catholic Church again-as a member!!! That was to occur some 25 years later-and I was quite anti-Catholic at one time. But I was never against hearing the other side and studying "apostate literature", as JWs call non-JW material -I even studied some of their stuff once, on a challenge, just to give them a fair chance too.

But when I began to study church history, ECFs, theology, conciliar decrees, etc, something began to dawn on me, slowly, and that was that the Catholic church did teach this direct and intimate relationship between the individual and God, sometimes called communion, and, to my great surprise, taught Jer 31:33-34 as I already understood it to mean. I just had to seek and study for myself, which how I became Christian to begin with. Simultaneously it became apparent that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura was pretty much a joke, with often a variety of plausible human interpretations resulting, all claiming to be Spirit-led while often conflicting with each other 180 degrees.

Then I had to begin to truly recognize and admit to my own failings as a human, in order to better understand how church members, including leaders, can often miss the mark in miserable ways. That at least released me from the priggish superiority complex I'd been attracted to for quite a few years. After that the teachings were the most central and crucial matter to be considered-and the Catholic teachings on justification were far and away more sound and balanced-as well as in line with ECFs, the other ancient churches in the east, and Scripture-compared to the Protestant position IMO, and the Protestant position isn't unified anyway, with differences, for example, in the understanding of Sola Fide and how that doctrine should play out in a believer's life. The Catholic Church constitutes our common Christian ancestral lineage in the west-and there never was a good reason to disassociate from her-as I came to view the matter anyway.

One problem I have with Roman Catholicism is it seems to me that you have to believe in the Pope and agree to whatever he comes up with to be a RC. So personally if I was going to become a Catholic, I'd go with Eastern Orthodoxy. Which I've delved into some. But whatever the case, if you decide to become a Catholic, or a Lutheran, or a Calvinist or a Pentecostal etc you have to subscribe to that doctrine. So it seems to me anyone who's a member of a denomination, isn't sola scriptura.

Really I think what God is looking for is those who want to partake in His Kingdom. And He's not going to bring someone into it, who's going to hate being in a place that's nothing about the flesh and self, but rather is all about worshiping and serving God. As Mike Kestler says, Heaven wouldn't be Haven, it would be Hell for those who don't love the Lord. And love Christians for that matter, because they're going to be stuck with them for eternity too.