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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

JAL

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Marvelous grasp of the obvious. . .of course it's not an issue of laws when it is not in applicable law.

In regard to the law, you mistake accommodation to conscience for authority of conscience.

And why is the conscience involved?

Because it subjectively and erroneously "feels" that it is against the law.

And for the sake of not searing the function of that natural subjective monitor of morality, even though it can be misinformed,
it is better to preserve it and have it than to be without it. . .so it is to be observed and preserved, not seared.

None of which places conscience above the law, but allows the objective law to accommodate the subjective conscience.
I think the disconnect here is you building the same strawman argument that @Fervent built. He seemed to think that the rule of conscience only allows private opinions to be considered. To clarify, I gave him the following scenario.

Suppose you feel 75% certain that choice A is morally good, and 85% certain that choice B is morally good. You should go with choice B, then, correct? Not quite so fast. You might feel 95% certain that you need to investigate the issue further, meaning, 95% certain that the 85% is not high enough to perform choice B in good conscience. By "investigate further" this could mean praying, examining Scripture, seeking counseling, etc.

Clear?
 
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Clare73

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What point are you trying to make here? That's there's an exception to the rule of conscience? Meaning, an occasion when we should try to be evil instead of good?

This debate is ridiculous.
The point from the beginning has always been that the conscience is not the primary authority for morality, for God's law is that authority.
The conscience is the default authority for morality when God's law is not known.

The point is that the conscience is not the primary authority for doing good, for God's law is that authority.
The conscience is the default authority for doing good when God's law is not known.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You tend to conflate two separate issues. The first issue is your claim that your (supposedly omnipotent, infinitely powerful) God is not powerful enough to endue His creatures with libertarian freedom. (Not a terribly convincing position).
You not only posit a god who, though somehow creator, is not omnipotent, but you scorn his inability to do self-contradictory things! You spraypaint a picture onto an oily surface floating on a river and think you have created a masterpiece.
The main problem is that the entire Bible, with respect to morality, justice, and divine retribution, makes absolutely no sense without libertarian freedom.

The second problem is that I already refuted your (effectively) "Only Cause" claim by referencing angels. Angelic movement is self-caused by free will, much like divine animation.
"The main problem is that the entire Bible, with respect to morality, justice, and divine retribution, makes absolutely no sense without" God's causation. In fact, nothing at all makes any sense unless God caused it to be real.
That was the first issue. The second issue is your repeated insinuation that libertarian freedom necessarily boils down to meaningless random chance. As you put it:

This is the fallacy of special pleading. You admit that, for God, libertarian freedom is a valid concept. You then insist that, for man, it is necessarily a self-contradictory concept. Make up your mind. No self-respecting Arminian will take seriously your blatant inconsistency and double standard here.
You say, "You admit that, for God, libertarian freedom is a valid concept." To be able to consider your thinking to be at all cohesive, I will assume you mean by that, 'libertarian freedom' concerning God —not libertarian freewill on man's part. God has absolute freewill, because he is God, omnipotent first cause. He did not show up on an already established scene. He is not subject to any external fact, nor, of course, to our fallen and weak human concepts concerning any fact, nor our language describing any concept.

WE, on the other hand, are mere creatures, yet you want to invoke, concerning our choices, absolute freedom from causation. It is absurd! We DID show up on an established scene, established by God, caused by God. We are within that scene, part of that scene. We are in every way, caused!

If, then, man is caused, and so his choices are caused, yet as you claim, not caused by God, what did cause one man to do one thing, and another man to do another thing? —the only option you are left with is self-contradictory 'causation by chance'. This, you, and all your ilk, disguise with phrases such as 'libertarian free will of the creature' and 'God-given spontaneity'.

Your only whimper, against the simple logic of causation descended from first cause, boils down to this: "But it's not fair!"
 
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Clare73

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I think the disconnect here is you building the same strawman argument that @Fervent built. He seemed to think that the rule of conscience only allows private opinions to be considered. To clarify, I gave him the following scenario.

Suppose you feel 75% certain that choice A is morally good, and 85% certain that choice B is morally good. You should go with choice B, then, correct? Not quite so fast. You might feel 95% certain that you need to investigate the issue further, meaning, 95% certain that the 85% is not high enough to perform choice B in good conscience. By "investigate further" this could mean praying, examining Scripture, seeking counseling, etc.

Clear?
If you're giving that much consideration, would you not have knowledge of God's moral law, which is love your neighbor as yourself, treat him as you would yourself in the light of the circumstances?
Where's the problem?
 
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JAL

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The point from the beginning has always been that the conscience is not the primary authority for morality, for God's law is that authority.
The conscience is the default authority for morality when God's law is not known.

The point is that the conscience is not the primary authority for doing good, for God's law is that authority.
The conscience is the default authority for doing good when God's law is not known.
It makes no sense to say that God's law is the primary authority. Which law? There are lots of bibles/religions out there. At some point, I need to feel certain about which law is God's law. Then I need to feel certain about how it applies to me. Everything hinges on feelings of certainty (conscience). If you think the rule of conscience ignores God's written law, see post 2401.
 
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JAL

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If you're giving that much consideration, would you not have knowledge of God's moral law, which is love your neighbor as yourself, treat him as you would yourself in the light of the circumstances?
Where's the problem?
Oversimplified. Life besets us with millions of options daily. I always have to go with the one I feel most certain about at the moment of a pressing decision.
 
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Clare73

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You are not infallible. At no point, then, do you have an objective knowledge of God's will.
So that's what's going on. . .total subjectivity.
There are no absolutes.

One cannot "objectively" know God's law. . .
"Thou shalt not murder" is subject to interpretation.
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is subject to interpretation.

That's good work if you can get it.
 
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JAL

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WE, on the other hand, are mere creatures, yet you want to invoke, concerning our choices, absolute freedom from causation. It is absurd!
No it's not absurd, Mark. Your belief is that God created us ex nihilo - out of nothing. So what external factor is impinging on man's freedom? The great pit of Nothingness? You haven't established that creation rules out freedom. It's just a weird philosophical theory contrary to the libertarian freedom implicit from Genesis to Revelation.

If, then, man is caused, yet as you claim, not caused by God, what did cause one man to do one thing, and another man to do another thing? —the only option you are left with is self-contradictory 'causation by chance'. This, you, and all your ilk, disguise with phrases such as 'libertarian free will of the creature' and 'God-given spontaneity'.
There it is again - special pleading. You think God has real freedom - it's not random chance - but then claim that, for man, real freedom could only be defined as random chance. It's a double standard.
 
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JAL

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So that's what's going on. . .total subjectivity.
There are no absolutes.

One cannot "objectively" know God's law. . .
"Thou shalt not murder" is subject to interpretation.
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is subject to interpretation.

That's good work if you can get it.
So was Abraham wrong to try to kill his son? Moses and Josh were wrong trying to murder 7 nations?
 
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Clare73

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It makes no sense to say that God's law is the primary authority. Which law? There are lots of bibles/religions out there. At some point, I need to feel certain about which law is God's law. Then I need to feel certain about how it applies to me. Everything hinges on feelings of certainty (conscience). If you think the rule of conscience ignores God's written law, see post 2401.
"What we have here is" (from "Cool Hand Luke) failure to believe Scripture is the word of God, backed by the authority of God, for the people of God.

And that issue doesn't hinge on conscience, it hinges on Holy Spirit faith.
 
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Clare73

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So was Abraham wrong to try to kill his son? Moses and Josh were wrong trying to murder 7 nations?
In my Bible, Abraham didn't kill his son. . .

In my Bible, it's a good thing to obey God, even when he uses you as the instrument of his judgment on the wicked.
 
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JAL

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"What we have here is" (from "Cool Hand Luke) failure to believe Scripture is the word of God, backed by the authority of God, for the people of God.

And that issue doesn't hinge on conscience, it hinges on Holy Spirit faith.
Deflection. Faith is a feeling of certainty. You can't claim to know which law is the true law, or how to apply it, without implying, "I feel certain about this."
 
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Clare73

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Oversimplified. Life besets us with millions of options daily. I always have to go with the one I feel most certain about at the moment of a pressing decision.
Assertion of your point is not demonstration of your point, without which your point has no merit.
 
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Clare73

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Deflection. Faith is a feeling of certainty. You can't claim to know which law is the true law, or how to apply it, without implying, "I feel certain about this."
Or just applying faith, apart from how you feel about it.
 
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JAL

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Assertion of your point is not demonstration of your point, without which your point has no merit.
I usually do at least as much demonstration as you, and then you always accuse me of no demonstration. It's like listening to a broken record.
 
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Clare73

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Deflection. That's not what I asked.
Sounded like it to me.

So you're asking was it wrong for God to tell Abraham to kill his son?

Was it wrong for God to kill his Son?
 
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JAL

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@Clare73,

Are you going to address Abraham, Joshu, and Moses, as I asked? Or just keep deflecting?

Funny you say I haven't demonstrated my point, but when I try to showcase Scripture, you just ignore it and deflect!

You're right - you are NOT seeing any demonstration from me because you turn a blind eye and a deaf ear!
 
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