It seemed so easy for the thief on the cross to be saved.

[Clare73]

I may not understand your point of view, but I would disagree that our lives on this earth have no value. The prayer that Jesus taught his disciples was to say, "...Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as in heaven." I have recently read Paul, a Biography by NT Wright, and he brought up some very good points -- namely that "going to heaven" is not the point of Paul's teachings. Instead, it was that Jesus was God's Messiah, and the Messiah is going to set the world right. Thus Paul was teaching for everyone to become part of God's kingdom with Jesus as Lord. It was all centered on God's actions on this earth, both current and future. Consistent with this, in Revelation we see God's city coming to the Earth-- Earth reformed is the future home of humanity. In contrast, Platonism teaches that the earth is evil, and the goal one should strive for is to leave this material world and hope for a better existence in some other spiritual plane. And over time, much of this Platonic thought has gotten entangled with Christian teaching, with unfortunate effects.

If one accepts that God is working to establish His kingdom on Earth, then what we do here on this planet DOES matter. If I give a cool glass of water to someone who never accepts Jesus as his lord, that WAS still worth doing.

Just my 2 cents.
Best wishes,

KT

Keeping in mind this earth is going to be destroyed by fire, cleansing all the evil and unbelief from it, and then it will be the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:11-13).

 

[FireDragon76]

It wasn't easy for the thief on the cross to be saved. Not at all. Simple, perhaps, but not easy. There was nothing easy about the torture and crucifixion the Romans visited on people.

I may not understand your point of view, but I would disagree that our lives on this earth have no value. The prayer that Jesus taught his disciples was to say, "...Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as in heaven." I have recently read Paul, a Biography by NT Wright, and he brought up some very good points -- namely that "going to heaven" is not the point of Paul's teachings. Instead, it was that Jesus was God's Messiah, and the Messiah is going to set the world right. Thus Paul was teaching for everyone to become part of God's kingdom with Jesus as Lord. It was all centered on God's actions on this earth, both current and future. Consistent with this, in Revelation we see God's city coming to the Earth-- Earth reformed is the future home of humanity. In contrast, Platonism teaches that the earth is evil, and the goal one should strive for is to leave this material world and hope for a better existence in some other spiritual plane. And over time, much of this Platonic thought has gotten entangled with Christian teaching, with unfortunate effects.

If one accepts that God is working to establish His kingdom on Earth, then what we do here on this planet DOES matter. If I give a cool glass of water to someone who never accepts Jesus as his lord, that WAS still worth doing.

Just my 2 cents.
Best wishes,

KT

This is correct. N.T. Wright has written alot about this kind of eschatology. It also fits with Jesus actual teachings, which are simply just the "Torah of the heart" of the prophets.

Also, read the Gospel of John, especially the last section. The resurrection has already happened, and eternal life has already begun (John 11:25). John is the last Gospel written, and reflects the theological development as the Spirit continued to teach. This is why prior to 19th century Protestantism, eschatology was no longer salient outside of groups like the Montanists or Chiliasts, who continued to believe in something more like an earthly Davidic messiah.

The Church got derailed in the middle ages due to western obsession with guilt brought on by the medieval Church becoming enmeshed in earthly power politics, but originally Christianity was a message of liberation, not guilt or control.

Jesus actually identified the most with the biblical image of the Son of Man, the figure from Daniel, more than he did with a Davidic messiah. In fact this is what the image of the Ascension is really about, and this is why most Jews continue to reject Jesus' messiahship today. Most are still awaiting an earthly political messiah.

 

[honey badger]

Jesus was speaking to both thieves ...

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

The thief on the cross loved ( agape) Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This is why he was considered as one in His flock . He defended our Lord. To be a Christian one has this level of agape love towards Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Blessings

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Well a person is born in a state of separation from the Life of God. But they are not like a dead person, like Calvinist make them out to be.​

A person is alive and can think and reason and after examining the evidence presented by The Bible will either believe or not.

It all goes back to God's own imputing of Adam's sin to all mankind (Ro 5:17), causing all to be guilty and objects of wrath by nature (Eph 2:3).

God locked up all mankind in sin so all would have to come to him for mercy (Ro 11:32).

I agree with both of you. I was just poking fun at preachers who preach legalism (JM is famous for his "Lordship Doctrine") while at the same time preaching that salvation is inevitable for the elect and unachievable by the rest.

 

[Jamdoc]

Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

So.. with a little bit of grace towards John MacArthur, as another poster pointed out, it's a Baptist style of preaching to constantly convict the listener and have them turning to the gospel daily, to have you cling to Christ's hand like He's holding you over a fiery chasm and His hand is the only thing preventing you from falling in.
The idea being, if you ever just relax your grip on Christ, you fall in, so constantly reminding you of that fact keeps you holding on tight.
Though sometimes it may seem like they're preaching something other than Grace to save, ultimately it is grace that they do preach.

the other idea, is that it is easy to get saved, but it is difficult to LIVE as a saved person should.

There is one other followup, and that is, Jesus doesn't say if you once believed in me but stopped believing in me you have eternal life. It's a constant state of belief, the bible itself testifies about remaining in the faith, and also testifies that many will depart from the faith.
That is they were in the faith once, but then departed from it. the Apostle John says those people were never of us, and it's true, remaining in the Faith is a mark of salvation. However, it is possible to have seasons where a person falls into sin and apparently from outside eyes, seems to have left the faith, only to return to it like a bungie cord. If you're saved I believe God will let you go prodigal for awhile, but then come desperately back home to Him, probably worse for wear, and He welcomes with open arms.

But if they never return? Saying a sinner's prayer at 8 doesn't cover them. Always remember the parable of the sower, there are the seeds that fall in the hard ground, they sprout up for awhile, but then take no root and wither in the sun, or seeds that get choked by weeds. Neither of those is considered by Jesus to be saved.

 

[timothyu]

It's a constant state of belief, the bible itself testifies about remaining in the faith, and also testifies that many will depart from the faith.
That is they were in the faith once, but then departed from it

Of course. They abandon the newly found Kingdom to return to the self-serving ways of the world of mankind, just as the religious institution did when It Amalgamated with Rome.

 

[Kathleen30]

Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

God doesn’t discriminate with denominations or cultures he saves whom he pleases. If you should find yourself a goat cometh the great day. Then you were never one of his sheep. Meaning you were only in name only. Was it too easy for the thief on the cross. No. God spoke and it was done. Today you be with me in paradise.

 

[KevinT]

This is why prior to 19th century Protestantism, eschatology was no longer salient outside of groups like the Montanists or Chiliasts, who continued to believe in something more like an earthly Davidic messiah.

I don't understand this. Can you explain a bit more about this?

KT

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't understand this. Can you explain a bit more about this?

KT

The dominant eschatology prior to the 19th century was a kind of inaugurated eschatology, similar to what is presented in the Gospel of John.

This is why Thomas says "My Lord and my God" at the end of the Gospel. Nearly every devout Jew believed in the resurrection and the world to come in the 1st century, in a "some time in the future" kind of way. However, Jesus, through his life, death, and resurrection, presents a rupture in that history. Indeed, he shatters their expectations in a way that God only could. Hence why the message of the Gospel is that you believe in Jesus and you have the Spirit, the Kingdom, and eternal life now. In fact this idea (and others) was considered such a sacred mystery in the early Church, that catechumens were not allowed to read this Gospel (part of what is called the disciplini arcani, the secret teachings or mystagogy, the use of layered mystical pedagogy).

This is akin to N.T. Wright or Marcus Borg's understanding of eschatology, that re-emphasized this "kingdom now" eschatology, vs. those following in the German critical tradition that though Jesus was a mistaken apocalyptic prophet (owing to a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the nature of biblical prophecy, BTW).

 

[Jamdoc]

The dominant eschatology prior to the 19th century was a kind of inaugurated eschatology, similar to what is presented in the Gospel of John.

This is why Thomas says "My Lord and my God" at the end of the Gospel. Nearly every devout Jew believed in the resurrection and the world to come in the 1st century, in a "some time in the future" kind of way. However, Jesus, through his life, death, and resurrection, presents a rupture in that history. Indeed, he shatters their expectations in a way that God only could. Hence why the message of the Gospel is that you believe in Jesus and you have the Spirit, the Kingdom, and eternal life now. In fact this idea (and others) was considered such a sacred mystery in the early Church, that catechumens were not allowed to read this Gospel (part of what is called the disciplini arcani, the secret teachings or mystagogy, the use of layered mystical pedagogy).

This is akin to N.T. Wright or Marcus Borg's understanding of eschatology, that re-emphasized this "kingdom now" eschatology, vs. those following in the German critical tradition that though Jesus was a mistaken apocalyptic prophet (owing to a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the nature of biblical prophecy, BTW).

But it's not now.
Sin still exists
Death still exists.

Jesus resurrected bodily, with flesh, not a "spiritual resurrection" that's gnostic heresy territory.

 

[FireDragon76]

But it's not now.

That's why John was considered mystagogical and of the disciplina arcani. Not everybody was ready to understand it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Is it that easy for us too ? , or is John Macarthur correct in saying millions of Christians will go to hell after they die , and then gives his reasons.
No need to watch the entire vid if you don't wish to , 5 or 10 should give you the drift.

Uh, no. John is not correct whatsoever. I'd consider him an everyday kind of fear monger.

But hey, preachers got bills to pay man! They have to extort the flocks and keep them paying up to avoid hell

Regarding the "2 thieves." They both contain a very simple lesson.

There's an old man, one who can not see or speak of his condition as a thief, a liar, a sinner. And, with those who are born again, who actually are LED by God to see their condition and speak truthfully about it, that man is saved in this present life.

What it doesn't mean is that that first thief is condemned. Jesus could have easily told that other thief he was screwed for eternity, but didn't. And remember this fact: Jesus forgave the men who drove the nails into His Hands and Feet. Why? Because they KNOW NOT what "they do." Why do they know not? Because they are blinded by the god of this world. It's not even their fault. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Mark 4:15.

So knowing a captive is a captive of SATAN or his own, why would He not forgive that BLIND THIEF as well? He forgives all and does not count sins against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

God will never forgive Satan and devils. But God in Christ forgives ALL PEOPLE.

What most people miss in these pictures is that the first man, the first thief, the first us, does not see our position as a blinded by the god of this world slave of the devil. The 2nd person, the born again person does.

All mankind will see at some point, most after death:

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

IF you want to see someone get born again right before your own eyes, simply tell them this fact to their face and then tell them they are in fact a believer. You'll be amazed!

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

A simple question to anyone: Have you ever loved?

YOU'RE IN!

Little used fact and even lesser used "method."

It's time to ASSUME every person into God's Kingdom. You don't have to give any person a "choice." It's totally not necessary.

Luke 14:23
And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Compel means FORCE them. I don't give anyone a choice or even a chance. They are just in, whether they like it or

OAR KNOT