How should we regard the Ecumenical Patriarch?

[E.C.]

This makes sense to me, but it raises a question. Why do we have bishops over other bishops? Isn't that what the structure of Patriarch -> Metropolitan -> Archbishop -> Bishop is?

Not really.

Patriarchs are primates of autocephalous Churches. Metropolitans can also be primates of smaller Churches, like Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA or Metropolitan Sawa of Poland. In larger Churches, like within the Russian Church, you have the Metropolitan of Minsk who overseas all of Belarus with his fellow bishops in Belarus and can represent Belarus at synodal meetings. Archbishops oversea major seas such as Washington DC or Ottawa. Sometimes if a bishop has been around for a long time they are given the title archbishop to notate their seniority.

Seniority does not neccesarily equal authority though. Most of the time seniority just means who sits where at the table and whom one might talk to if newly consecrated as a bishop and in need of advice.

 

[E.C.]

Isn’t that more of an administrative than a theological hierarchy, necessary for good order within the Church? (I stand open to correction)

Yes!

I think you may have posted while I was writting my prior post above. I think it may have answered your question.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This makes sense to me, but it raises a question. Why do we have bishops over other bishops? Isn't that what the structure of Patriarch -> Metropolitan -> Archbishop -> Bishop is?

they aren't over other bishops. those titles are for honor of the See and good order, not authority,

 

[dzheremi]

Can I ask you guys a question related to the discussion you're now having about administrative divisions?

Does anyone here know how many EO bishops there are in your jurisdiction in the United States? I'm curious if you guys are like us or not, since there are many more EO churches in this country than OO. Is there one bishop per state (I wouldn't imagine this, as there are probably many more EO in places like California and Alaska than in, say, Wyoming)? Or per region? And how are those regions broken up?

For comparative purposes, I was in the largest Coptic Orthodox diocese in the country when I lived in NM (the Southern US: 11 states, from Arizona to Florida), but most are much smaller, consisting of only a few states or territories (e.g., HG Bishop Peter oversees the Diocese of S. Carolina, N. Carolina, and Kentucky), or are on the larger side in terms of number of states but reflect already-existing regional divisions of the country (e.g., the Diocese of New York and New England, under HG Bishop David). As a result of having a few larger dioceses, we actually only have 12 bishops in the entire country as of 2018, and that includes two who serve alongside HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern US in areas within the diocese that have particularly large Coptic populations, namely Texas and Florida. I personally find that kind of mind-boggling when I consider the fact that there are over 200 Coptic parishes in America (and growing). That's 16+ parishes per bishop...and that'd be if they were evenly distributed, which they obviously are not. (NM has 1; next door in TX, there are 14. And a monastery. Not that I am jealous. Just saying. )

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can't answer your question, but remember too we have different jurisdictions.

Our Met Alexios oversees a number of parshies - not sure exactly how many but I think almost 70? I know there are parishes in Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, and Georgia (and maybe other states I'm not aware of). We are also part of the larger (archdiocese?) that just came under Abp. Elpidophoros based in New York, and I have the impression that includes (roughly) the eastern half of the US. And that's just the Greeks.

There is the page of canonical Orthodox bishops, so I guess we do know how many there are.

It's interesting how it is arranged in the US. I have a kind friend on FB who is a bishop in a foreign country and I get the impression he mostly oversees a very small area. He seems much more connected to his people and I can appreciate the way it seems to operate there, though I never asked him about it and only casually observe what I see. (He also posts quite a bit in a language I don't recognize, so I'm very much a casual onlooker in those matters.) But I very much appreciate his pastoral care that is apparent.

 

[dzheremi]

I can't answer your question, but remember too we have different jurisdictions.

Yeah, sorry...I should've clarified that I meant "in whichever jurisdiction you're in" (cf. obviously the Coptic Orthodox Church is not the only OO church in the country, but it's the only one I personally know about at this level of detail. I'll edit the post accordingly. Thanks for the reminder.)

Our Met Alexios oversees a number of parshies - not sure exactly how many but I think almost 70? I know there are parishes in Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, and Georgia (and maybe other states I'm not aware of). We are also part of the larger (archdiocese?) that just came under Abp. Elpidophoros based in New York, and I have the impression that includes (roughly) the eastern half of the US. And that's just the Greeks.

It makes more sense to me that a metropolitan would oversee a large territory with a large number of parishes, since a metropolis is obviously a larger area.

There is the page of canonical Orthodox bishops, so I guess we do know how many there are.

It's interesting how it is arranged in the US. I have a kind friend on FB who is a bishop in a foreign country and I get the impression he mostly oversees a very small area. He seems much more connected to his people and I can appreciate the way it seems to operate there, though I never asked him about it and only casually observe what I see. (He also posts quite a bit in a language I don't recognize, so I'm very much a casual onlooker in those matters.) But I very much appreciate his pastoral care that is apparent.

Interesting. Thank you for your perspective and information.

 

[ArmyMatt]

each jurisdiction's website should have their standing Synod listed.

 

[dzheremi]

each jurisdiction's website should have their standing Synod listed.

True, and I considered just going by what I could find online, but thought you guys might have more information about how things work out in practice on the ground, because what I find doesn't always make sense to me at first blush.

For instance, the Antiochians appear to have 9 dioceses in the USA, but only 7 bishops, with the Most Reverend Metropolitan Joseph being Archbishop of N.Y. and All North America, and also overseeing the Diocese of Los Angeles and the West, and the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, the latter as locum tenens and the former not (or at least it doesn't say so on their website). How does this work out in practice? Are there auxiliary bishops who work with him in those places that operate directly under him (in the sense of not having their own bishops for the diocese) when he is not there, akin to the Coptic situation in the vast Southwestern US Diocese? I could only find those seven on their website.

 

[ArmyMatt]

True, and I considered just going by what I could find online, but thought you guys might have more information about how things work out in practice on the ground, because what I find doesn't always make sense to me at first blush.

For instance, the Antiochians appear to have 9 dioceses in the USA, but only 7 bishops, with the Most Reverend Metropolitan Joseph being Archbishop of N.Y. and All North America, and also overseeing the Diocese of Los Angeles and the West, and the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest, the latter as locum tenens and the former not (or at least it doesn't say so on their website). How does this work out in practice? Are there auxiliary bishops who work with him in those places that operate directly under him (in the sense of not having their own bishops for the diocese) when he is not there, akin to the Coptic situation in the vast Southwestern US Diocese? I could only find those seven on their website.

well, the Antiochians are a unique structure. only His Eminence is the bishop in North America, with the others has his auxiliaries....sort of....

 

[dzheremi]

Oh. Okay. Thank you for explaining that, Father.

So is something like what the Serbians have (three dioceses, three bishops) more standard? I wonder if the Antiochians have the structure they have because they are known for receiving so many converts, and hence may have grown faster than the other jurisdictions.

 

[DraculKain]

well, the Antiochians are a unique structure. only His Eminence is the bishop in North America, with the others has his auxiliaries....sort of....

In the Divine Liturgy at our parish we always commemorate “Our father, Metropolitan Joseph, and our Bishop, Anthony.” Interesting situation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh. Okay. Thank you for explaining that, Father.

So is something like what the Serbians have (three dioceses, three bishops) more standard? I wonder if the Antiochians have the structure they have because they are known for receiving so many converts, and hence may have grown faster than the other jurisdictions.

I dunno that there is a standard here in the States.

 

[GoingByzantine]

There are also some oddities in the American juridictional landscape, like ROCOR's Western Rite Vicarate which falls directly under the omophorion of Metropolitan Hilarion regardless of where each parish is physically located.

 

[archer75]

I feel addressing the Ecumenical Patriarch that way seems like "Neo-Papacy".

Ecumenical doesn't mean "the whole world" here. That office came to have that title because the bishop who was there was "attached" to the empire. It's just the same title after all this time, when the empire is long gone.

It was the same title when Constantinople and Rome were in communion for centuries and the EP recognized the Bishop of Rome as first among equals. So the title has nothing to do with anything like the later Roman claims of universal jurisdiction, etc.


(Although even St. Gregory the Great complained about the title when St. John the Faster was EP. )

 

[Not David]

Ecumenical doesn't mean "the whole world" here. That office came to have that title because the bishop who was there was "attached" to the empire. It's just the same title after all this time, when the empire is long gone.

It was the same title when Constantinople and Rome were in communion for centuries and the EP recognized the Bishop of Rome as first among equals. So the title has nothing to do with anything like the later Roman claims of universal jurisdiction, etc.


(Although even St. Gregory the Great complained about the title when St. John the Faster was EP. )

I wasn't talking about the title.