How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[razeontherock]

Don't think I posted in this thread ever? I'm coming across a lot of interesting reading, and I think it's good to question our own convictions now and again as long as we remain steadfast in Christ. Whether our opinions change or not, it seems to me that the process draws us closer to Christ, and hopefully 2012 finds everyone here doing just that?

I know that as I age, I am generally less convinced of any opinion

 

[cupid dave]

I believe that some of Matthew 24 is fulfilled, but not all of it, nor do I believe Daniel to be fulfilled.

I, personally, do not understand how preterists believe that this (the world we are living in, today) can be the world to come. Or do preterists have a different chronology of what happens when all is fulfilled?

Well Baniel seems clearly fulfilled to he point that rthe Jews have returned to Israel and Jerusalem is now its capital city agaain:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, (in 70 AD), and (until) the abomination, (the Dome of the Rock), that maketh (the Most Holy Place) desolate set up there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days, (690 + 1290 = 1980 AD, the re-establishment of the State of Israel, the sign of the fig tree, and the establishment of Jerusalem, 1980 AD, as Capital of Israel): [Matt 24:32).[/FONT]​

Note:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Dome of The Rock covers the stone Jews believe was the altar whereon Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac. The muslims say Mohammed ascended to heaven from that rock, though he had died years before elsewhere, in Medina. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It was built between 685-691 by Caliph Abdal-Malik ibn Marwan, a shrine for pilgrims modelled on the Christian martyria. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Inscriptures on it say ITS ORIGINAL PURPOSE WAS TO PROCLAIM THAT JESUS WAS ONLY A PROPHET AMONG PROPHETS AND NOT THE SON OF GOD. Merrian-Webster Enc of World Religions. Pg 299, 1999 ed [/FONT]​

 

[glen55]

Luke 21:12-24, goes with Matthew 23:34-39, and is the only desolation that happened with Daniels people being scattered among the nations.

That senario above concerned the house of Judahs punishment for rejecting the Messiah, the one prophecied about to come from their own tribe, Which is backwards to the end time events that bring about Jacobs (a type of the scattered nation before its restored to Israel Acts 1:6) rescue from the nations coming against him, Joel chapter three explains it, and Paul reminds the gentile world of it Romans 11:26.

Luke 21:12-24 is said to be fulfilled "before" even any end time signs could even start to manifest, so much for preterist version, not to mention its backwards and denigns the time of the gentiles is still ticking.

 

[razeontherock]

Luke 21:12-24, goes with Matthew 23:34-39, and is the only desolation that happened with Daniels people being scattered among the nations.

I don't mean to be dense, but can you explain this?

 

[Huram Abi]

Well Baniel seems clearly fulfilled to he point that rthe Jews have returned to Israel and Jerusalem is now its capital city agaain:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, (in 70 AD), and (until) the abomination, (the Dome of the Rock), that maketh (the Most Holy Place) desolate set up there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days, (690 + 1290 = 1980 AD, the re-establishment of the State of Israel, the sign of the fig tree, (and the establishment of Jerusalem as Capital of Israel): [Matt 24:32).[/FONT]​

Note:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Dome of The Rock covers the stone Jews believe was the altar whereon Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac. The muslims say Mohammed ascended to heaven from that rock, though he had died years before elsewhere, in Medina. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It was built between 685-691 by Caliph Abdal-Malik ibn Marwan, a shrine for pilgrims modelled on the Christian martyria. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Inscriptures on it say ITS ORIGINAL PURPOSE WAS TO PROCLAIM THAT JESUS WAS ONLY A PROPHET AMONG PROPHETS AND NOT THE SON OF GOD. Merrian-Webster Enc of World Religions. Pg 299, 1999 ed [/FONT]​

The state of Israel was not re-established in 1980.

Your arrival at 1980 is purely inconsequential to Israel and irrelevant. Aside from a hostage attempt by some Palestinian Arabs, 1980 was quite uneventful for Israel.

Not to mention that your 690 starting point is arbitrary. Of all the choices you have from 685 to 691, you have subjectively selected this particular starting point to arrive purposefully at 1980 since that is the year of your birth and it fulfills your personal theology that you are the important figure regarding the coming of the next messiah.


It is also worth noting that the Dome of the Rock, itself, is not relevant to the passage you put it in. Again, you are just trying to reverse engineer yourself into scripture.

 

[glen55]

I don't mean to be dense, but can you explain this?

Daniels abomination of desolation deals with the the man of sin just before Christ returns Thess 2, not the desolation of the city with them being scattered, at Christs coming they will be a regathering not a scattering like happened at 70AD.

 

[cupid dave]

Daniels abomination of desolation deals with the the man of sin just before Christ returns Thess 2, not the desolation of the city with them being scattered, at Christs coming they will be a regathering not a scattering like happened at 70AD.

Yes it does.

The man of sin is described in Dan 7:


Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns, (kingdoms), that were in his head, (the Roman Empire of Western Europe), and of the other, (the eleventh horn), which came up, and before whom three (heads: [Dan 7:12]) fell, (Babylon, [Iraq], and Persia/Mede, [Iran],, Greece); even of that horn, (Islam), that had eyes (of the seer Mohammed: [Rev 6:1-2]), and a mouth (of the False Prophet in its Koran: [Rev 16:13]) that spake very great things (of Heaven and Hell), whose look, (as the Last Prophet) was more stout than his fellows, (the Bible Prophets).

 

[cupid dave]

The state of Israel was not re-established in 1980.

Yes, the exact date for the establishment of Israel was 1948.

This was revealed by Revelation 11, in one case.
It is tied to 688AD, the starting year of construction for the Dome of abomination.

The date for the second step, 1980, the establishment of the capital, is tied to the date of completion of the Dome of the Rock, 690AD.


Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the (cube shaped: [Rev 21:16]) temple of God, and the altar (within), and them that worship therein.

Rev. 11:2 But the court, (the site covered by the Dome of the Rock), which is without the temple, (330 ft to the north), leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the (muslim) Gentiles:
and the holy city, (The Promised Land), shall they tread (from 688 AD) under foot, (688 +1260 = 1948 AD [Dan 12:11-12]), forty and two months, (or, 30X42 = 1260 years, from the building of the Dome of the Rock, that Abomination of Desolation, until 1948 AD, the re-establishment of Israel: [Rev 12:6]).


Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, (the Old Testament; [Psa 19:7:The law] and the New Testament; [Psa 19:7: the testimony]), and they shall prophesy: a thousand two hundred and threescore days, (30X42 = 1260 years, from the building of the Dome of the Rock, that Abomination of Desolation: [Dan 12:11], until 1948 AD, the re-establishment of Israel: [Rev 12:6]), clothed in sackcloth (of Scripture).

 

[Huram Abi]

Yes, the exact date for the establishment of Israel was 1948.

This was revealed by Revelation 11, in one case.
It is tied to 688AD, the starting year of construction for the Dome of abomination.

The date for the second step, 1980, the establishment of the capital, is tied to the date of completion of the Dome of the Rock, 690AD.


Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the (cube shaped: [Rev 21:16]) temple of God, and the altar (within), and them that worship therein.

Rev. 11:2 But the court, (the site covered by the Dome of the Rock), which is without the temple, (330 ft to the north), leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the (muslim) Gentiles:
and the holy city, (The Promised Land), shall they tread (from 688 AD) under foot, (688 +1260 = 1948 AD [Dan 12:11-12]), forty and two months, (or, 30X42 = 1260 years, from the building of the Dome of the Rock, that Abomination of Desolation, until 1948 AD, the re-establishment of Israel: [Rev 12:6]).


Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, (the Old Testament; [Psa 19:7:The law] and the New Testament; [Psa 19:7: the testimony]), and they shall prophesy: a thousand two hundred and threescore days, (30X42 = 1260 years, from the building of the Dome of the Rock, that Abomination of Desolation: [Dan 12:11], until 1948 AD, the re-establishment of Israel: [Rev 12:6]), clothed in sackcloth (of Scripture).

Insert all the parenthesis you want. What it says outside the parenthesis does not back up what you claim and you are cheating to arrive where you want anyway.

42 months does not equal 1260 years, Cupid. Using the Hebrew Calendar, it doesn't even equal 1260 days.


You've also inserted 688 Ad in without any authoritative reason.



You have no business inserting arbitrary dates here.


You've also shaved of a few years from the starting point anyway. The Dome was started in 685 AD, not 688.

 

[cupid dave]

Insert all the parenthesis you want. What it says outside the parenthesis does not back up what you claim and you are cheating to arrive where you want anyway.

42 months does not equal 1260 years, Cupid. Using the Hebrew Calendar, it doesn't even equal 1260 days.


You've also inserted 688 Ad in without any authoritative reason.



You have no business inserting arbitrary dates here.


You've also shaved of a few years from the starting point anyway. The Dome was started in 685 AD, not 688.

Wrong again...

The Dome of the Rock was built by the Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik from 688 to 691 AD.
Dome of the Rock - Jerusalem


Here is another strange parallel to Daniel:






[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is complementary to and a strange balance of durations, 1290 years, from when the first Temple was razed and the first cessation of the Daily Sacrifice took place.

Tthe Babylonian invasion and capture of the Jews in 583BC stopped the daily sacrifice.
The Abomination of the Dome of the Rock was built almost exactly 1290 "days" of years thereafter if we accept the calculations into solar years. (1271 - 583BC = 688AD)

It is a strange coincidence indeed.
The prophecy which seems to reflect the timing of the re-birth of Israel in 1948: (688 + 1260 = 1948AD), and the capture and establishment of the Capital in Jerusalem in 1980: (688 + 1290 = 1980AD)
[/FONT]

 

[Huram Abi]

It's not a strange coincidence. It's not even well aligned.

Jerusalem was seiged in 587 BC, not 583. The difference between that and the completion of the Dome is 1278 years. That has absolutely nothing to do with 1290 days, which is 3 and a half years.

There is no coincidence at all. No "Eureka!"

btw, your math skills are embarrassingly terrible.

Somehow you have derived 1260 years from 42 months.

Also, 688 (an arbitrary number not given in scripture) + 1290 years (which, scripturally is given as days; 1290 24 hour time periods) does not give us 1980.

You get 1978.

Neither 1980 or 1978 have anything to do with the establishment of a capital in Jerusalem.

You are looking at 1967, not 1980, for the reunification of Israel since Jerusalem was rent in 1948 when Isrealis took back the western part of Jerusalem, but the older, eastern part (the religiously significant part) was under Jordanian control.

Jerusalem, divided during the 1948 War of Independence, was reunited in June 1967.

1980 is not a significant year for Jerusalem by any means.


You've done a lot of graffitti to scripture to get these numbers and they are still wrong in every respect.

 

[glen55]

Yes it does.

The man of sin is described in Dan 7:


Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns, (kingdoms), that were in his head, (the Roman Empire of Western Europe), and of the other, (the eleventh horn), which came up, and before whom three (heads: [Dan 7:12]) fell, (Babylon, [Iraq], and Persia/Mede, [Iran],, Greece); even of that horn, (Islam), that had eyes (of the seer Mohammed: [Rev 6:1-2]), and a mouth (of the False Prophet in its Koran: [Rev 16:13]) that spake very great things (of Heaven and Hell), whose look, (as the Last Prophet)was more stout than his fellows, (the Bible Prophets).

One small little fact! Christ didn't return nor was the nations being judged, Rome was used by God to judge Judah period, no end time signs could have even started until after 70AD, its a nice theory but its not scriptural and mocks God I wills to the sons of jacob.

 

[he-man]

One small little fact! Christ didn't return nor was the nations being judged, Rome was used by God to judge Judah period, no end time signs could have even started until after 70AD, its a nice theory but its not scriptural and mocks God I wills to the sons of jacob.

The conservative commentator Feinberg offers a variation of the above view. He argues that a literal interpretation of the prophecy is unlikely since some of the nations listed in this passage would be unlikely to act together, such as Persia (Iran) and Libya.

Today, the nations occupying the territories of Ezekiel’s prophecy (Paras, Cush, and Put) are, respectively, Iran,Sudan, and Libya—precisely the peripheral nations that commentators insisted could not be associated with.

Modern Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians” claim they are—or the most part—escendants of the Philistines who lived in the area from before the Exodus (Genesis 21:34; 26), or were descended from the Canaanites, who also lived in this land. This anscestral claim does not bear scrutiny.

First, neither the Philistines nor the Canaanites were Arabs; the Bible, and history, speak of them distinctively: Arabs lived in Arabia, not along the Mediterranean seacoast.

Arab and English records indicate that, overwhelmingly, “Palestinians” are Arabs who migrated into Israel mostly in the 20th century long after Israel was called Palestine in 135 CE. Iran (Ezekiel’s Paras/Persia) underwent an Islamic revolution at the end of the 1970s that reoriented the country against the West—whom Arabs call the Crusaders and against Israel.

Libya (Ezekiel's Put) follows the radical Islamic agenda of its leader, Mu‛mmar Qadhafi, and represents a major player within Islamic extremism. *Note: published before 2011

So we now see a remarkable and intimate association of three radical Islamic states which are committed to one goal: the annihilation of Israel, and are the very countries Ezekiel said would ultimately strive mightily toward this purpose (cf. Psalm 83:1-8a).

Israel will be attacked from every point of the compass—perhaps by those representing every nation on earth.
The Prophecy That Is Shaping History: New Research on Ezekiel's Vision of the End
Jon Mark Ruthven, PhD
Ihab Griess, PhD

 

[cupid dave]

One small little fact! Christ didn't return nor was the nations being judged, Rome was used by God to judge Judah period, no end time signs could have even started until after 70AD, its a nice theory but its not scriptural and mocks God I wills to the sons of jacob.

Thanks for the support in that the theory is nice.

Be advised, though, that in accord with Matthew 24, Jesus did return when the sign of the son-of-man was seen and recorded, historically, in 312AD:



Matt. 24:30 And then, (hearlding the end of pagan astrological worship), shall appear (in the clouds, to Constantine and 10,000 soldiers: [As reported to us by the historian Eusibius]), the sign, (The Cross), of the Son of man in heaven, (ushering forth the new paradigm of monotheistic Hebrew Christianity): and then shall all the tribes of the earth (in the Western European Roman Empire) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming, (the Word of the New Testament, 382 AD), in the clouds of heaven (enveloping the universality of Christ's Church on earth, in the manifestation of Universal Christianity): with (socio-political) power (in the establishment of Universal Roman Christianity) and great glory (in mandatory Universal Christian worship throughout all the Roman World).


link to more details:
Matthew 24: THE FOURTH GENERAL OVERVIEW OF THE FUTURE:

 

[Huram Abi]

Yes, Constantine told Eusibius that he saw a cross in the sky.


This actually taking place has no historical veracity and is not what Matt 24 is talking about.

 

[cupid dave]

Yes, Constantine told Eusibius that he saw a cross in the sky.

This actually taking place has no historical veracity and is not what Matt 24 is talking about.

You may not believe the history you know because of your cognitive dissonance that will never let the Jewish dogma accept these realities but the events confirmed by Eusibius at the very word of the Emperor himself is also support by the historical events of the 1000 year reign of Christ which followed that vision of the sign of the son-of-man before the 10,000 soldiers in the field:





[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] In 392AD TheodociusI made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.
On 27 February 380AD, Emperor TheodosiusI enacted a law establishing Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and ordering others to be called heretics.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (in 380AD, when Christianity was mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches), of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, (Old Testament and New), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (of the Roman economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands; and they lived (as angels in the minds of Christians who have followed, these beheaded saints, in the memories of congregations who worshiped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)... .... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
[/FONT]More specifics on this here: Revelation 20: The Great Day of the Lord on the clouds of heaven:

 

[Huram Abi]

You may not believe the history you know because of your cognitive dissonance that will never let the Jewish dogma accept these realities but the events confirmed by Eusibius at the very word of the Emperor himself is also support by the historical events of the 1000 year reign of Christ which followed that vision of the sign of the son-of-man before the 10,000 soldiers in the field:





[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, [/[/FONT]quote]


*fixed

We see that the scripture you gave has nothing to do with what Constantine claimed to have witnessed.

These events were not confirmed by Eusibius. He recorded them as they were told to him. That is not a confirmation.

All you have is the account given by Constantine. And that means nothing in regard to those who were beheaded living and reigning with Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, Constantine told Eusibius that he saw a cross in the sky.

This actually taking place has no historical veracity and is not what Matt 24 is talking about.

Interesting. What about what Josephus witnessed before the destruction of Jerusalem?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7593926/
Josephus's sights and signs 1st century...did these really occur?

 

[Huram Abi]

To be honest, I have mostly skimped through Josephus and am poorly educated regarding the man and what he claimed/recorded.

I will tell you this: If the things Josephus claims aid in convincing others of his own apotheosis or enable him to politically control an otherwise negligent group AND he is the only one to report on these events, I would highly doubt them.

 

[cupid dave]

Interesting. What about what Josephus witnessed before the destruction of Jerusalem?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7593926/
Josephus's sights and signs 1st century...did these really occur?

Give us a link to Josephus whole text please.

It is from the horse's mouth that Eusibius took the dictation on the death bed from Constantine who confessed to him of his own Christianity.

Such a death bed confession seems most acceptable evidence in regard to the reason why Constantine would impliment his Edict of Toleration in 313AD.
It was during this ten year tribulation prophesied by Rev 2 that Rome was most indignant and more thoroughly distainful of Christians than at any other time.

Certainly to take their case would have cost Constantine some allies within the empire who were at the time invaluable to his own position.
I can not but think a death bed confession directly to a historian is carries way more credibility than the second guessing so cmmon in that discipline of history usually conceived and rationalized by men who are removed a half a century or more later.

We also have other confirming prophesies on the matter of the 1000 year reign of Jesus over all the nations composite within Rome:




1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself, (the Cross of light in the sky), shall descend (in the Holy Spirit) from heaven with a shout (from all the 12, 000 Roman soldiers under Constantine), with the voice (of Human Harmony), of the archangel, (Michael, speaking through Constantine, the emperor), and with (the Gestalt of psychic insight), the trump of God; And the dead in Christ, (the Apostles: [Rev 20:4]), shall rise first (as saints of the Universal Church): Then we, (Christians), which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (which Constantine and his soldiers had done, the sign of the Cross that precipitated the coming of the millennipum kingdom of Christ), to meet the Lord (whose sign is signified: [Isa 11:10]) in the air: and so shall we, (the Christian Church), ever be with the Lord (now a legalized christianity throughout Rome at Nicea, 325 AD),"