How does representation by Adam make any sense?

Akita Suggagaki · Jul 22, 2018

Tree of Life said:
The President does not make all Americans Republicans, but he represents all Americans. The President of the US represents all his citizens in very important ways.

And when he blunders we all suffer for it.

Easy Listener · Jul 22, 2018

name_is_irrelevant said:
Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

Because I believe in the foreknowledge of God, I believe everything that has happened was what God knew was going to happen before he terra-formed the surface of this rock. i.e. he knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree, just as you know that your pet Fox will kill your chickens. It is what we do - us humans.

The entire bible, to me, is about us leaving the "instinctual" animal kingdom by controlling the flesh we occupy and focusing on the spiritual. There is so much we don't know that it could fill millions of "new" bible's, IMO. We have absurdly limited knowledge and I believe that is for a reason. The search is how we learn.

I don't believe Adam's sin made us sinners. I believe Adam's sin DEMONSTRATED that we are sinners. (that just may be why the tree was there in the first place)

συνείδησις · Jul 22, 2018

Akita Suggagaki said:
And when he blunders we all suffer for it.

Good heavens! The left's politicization of tragedies has now descended to Adam's original sin.

Erik Nelson · Jul 22, 2018

name_is_irrelevant said:
Because relationships are personal things for me, they're not a matter of bloodline. Even Jesus made the point that his family weren't those simply related to him by lineage. I don't care about genealogy in general, I don't care about who some random guy 300 years ago had sex with or how that genetically links to me. I don't understand people who define themselves that way either, eg my great-great-great-grandfather was a revolutionary / pirate / invented the trombone / was Swedish / whatever. What does that have to do with you? Nothing. You are defined by what you do with your life, not what someone else did with theirs long before you existed. They're not you, nor is there a shred of evidence that you mystically preexisted in them.

The bible speaks of "crooked depravity" (Hebrew avon) which God imputes to descendants "unto the 3rd & 4th generation"... and there are even permanent sins imputed to all descendants unto the 10th generation and more (Deut 23)

We are defined to a significant extent by what we inherit from our forebears (genes, wealth, culture)

Apparently, God cares and "holds it against us", demanding of us atonement through believing on Jesus as Christ

God has ultra-high standards, we can sin even with our thoughts (Matt 5) and "all fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)

Christians must accept that their "fallen nature" and "continual sinning" is odious to God, and that we must atone "with all our heart, soul & mind"

Otherwise you are accounting yourself righteous (in your own eyes)… but that won't save you on Judgement Day... God in heaven keeps The Books of Records and Judges unto life or otherwise

what ultimately matters is God's opinion (which the Bible reveals)

such is my understanding as of this moment

FatalHeart · Jul 22, 2018

"God bound everyone over to disobedience so that He could have mercy on them all." Regardless of how or why, the fact is all sinned. It talks about us all being powerless, but God says, "I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm achieved salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me." And when Jesus prayed for another way, he was met by Peter sleeping. So, perhaps it was always possible that one should not sin, but that man was always also powerless not to. Furthermore, even Jesus had to be baptized with a baptism of repentance before God called him, not because he had any sin, but because until God called him, he wasn't justified. Setting up a covenant of grace implies the necessity of it for all mankind; without a need for grace to be justified, there would be no just way of giving it to one over another, and without an election of that grace, there'd be a way to earn it and it would be ineffectual. So it is by faith, then, to all who believe, and those who would believe were called, which is the righteousness of God and the reason it says, "He cannot disown Himself." Now, God says Adam was the spokesman. So, somewhere, God had linked Adam to us all. He was the representation for us. That is Biblical. Whether it makes sense or is completely explained has little do with the fact that it is true, and should be take into account. When you put the verses in Romans together, it builds the foundation for that type of thinking, and the sinful nature is a real thing.

Toro · Jul 22, 2018

name_is_irrelevant said:
Does Trump make all Americans Republicans? No.

Did Hitler make all Germans Nazis? No.

(No connection there, just two examples that came to mind, I hate all politics.)

So why does Adam's sin make all humans sinners, at least as far as I understand mainstream Christian theology?

What kind of logic is that? Imputed guilt is what this is called, IIRC.

People say, well it works the same way as Christ representing you. No, it doesn't. With Christ, he is your representative through personal association: faith. Whereas I couldn't care about Adam. It makes no sense.

Think of it like this:
Adam was told NOT to eat the apple. He could eat of ANYTHING in the garden but one thing. Eve was deceived into disobedience, but it wasnt until Adam ate of it that sin took hold.

You may say "But that was Adam, not me." Yet how many commands of Gods do you keep? If you break just one, it is the same as Adam. We ALL have that nature in us.

You may say "Well now God has so many commands. Adam had only one." But did Jesus not say "Love the Lord your God with all your heart body soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yoursel"?

Sure not eating of the tree sounds easy... much the same as love God and your neighbor..... but how many "neighbors" have you failed to love?

We did not set foot in the garden to eat of the tree as Adam, but as descendants of Adam we can not help but choose as he did... no matter how much our hearts and minds are devoted to God, our flesh will always cause disobedience. Not every moment of every day, but we will stumble into sin at times because of our flesh.

Flesh inherited by Adam and tainted by the original sin.

So let's say for example you look at a woman/man with desire that us not your wife/husband. In the world we as humans love to justify it (I can look just not touch... but Jesus said even to look is to commit adultery) just as Adam did after he ate of the tree. He even went as far as to blame God, but he tried to justify his sin by saying "The woman did it, and you gave me the woman so it's your fault... not mine."

Let's say you desire money (We can justify that as "everyone needs it") did Jesus run around worrying about the money? Did Jesus walk around saying "gimme money gimme I'm doing Gods work"

Or did He trust in the Fathers ability to provide?

We can say "I'd never eat of the tree" but the fact that you can not be free from sin on your own is proof that, yes in deed you, as would we all have been deceived by the serpent. Because one simple disobedience is the same as the original act of disobedience.

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

συνείδησις said:
What would you like to see? You've admitted that Adam spiritually died (at least I think you did). How would it be possible for a spiritually dead person to pass along to his offspring a perfect spiritual nature? Scripture witnesses that:

men are born in sin

birth itself is spiritually unclean (according to the law)

children are visited with the iniquities of their fathers to the 4th generation

children receive spiritual inheritance from their fathers

children are cut off from the life of GOD at birth (no access to tree of life, which is an analogy for the life of GOD)

I'm sure I can come up with other things with a little thought, but this far outweighs your anecdotal, subjective evidence that babies exist in a state of sinless, spiritual perfection. That is simply opinion with no scriptural support.

I would like to see scriptural evidence for the first, second and fourth point.

συνείδησις · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
I would like to see scriptural evidence for the first, second and fourth point.

1. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5

2. Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, If a woman has conceived seed, and has borne a male, then she shall be unclean seven days; as on the days of her menstrual impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall remain in the blood of her cleansing thirty three days; she shall not touch any holy thing, and she shall not go into the sanctuary, until the days of her cleansing are fulfilled. And if she bears a female, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation; and she shall continue in the blood of her cleansing sixty six days. Leviticus 12:2-5

4. A father's spiritual inheritance included the promises of GOD. These were passed on to the firstborn, e.g., Isaac, Jacob, Joseph.

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

συνείδησις said:
1. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5

2. Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, If a woman has conceived seed, and has borne a male, then she shall be unclean seven days; as on the days of her menstrual impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall remain in the blood of her cleansing thirty three days; she shall not touch any holy thing, and she shall not go into the sanctuary, until the days of her cleansing are fulfilled. And if she bears a female, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation; and she shall continue in the blood of her cleansing sixty six days. Leviticus 12:2-5

4. A father's spiritual inheritance included the promises of GOD. These were passed on to the firstborn, e.g., Isaac, Jacob, Joseph.

The exact wording of the curse says: "because you have ... This shall be for you", and they were cursed individually based upon their own actions. It is not said that the curse was intended to apply to any other person such as a blessing that God promises upon an offspring (except that there would be enmity between them). Can you please show a relevant example in support of the fourth point?

συνείδησις · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
The exact wording of the curse says: "because you have ... This shall be for you", and they were cursed individually based upon their own actions. It is not said that the curse was intended to apply to any other person such as a blessing that God promises upon an offspring (except that there would be enmity between them). Can you please show a relevant example in support of the fourth point?

I did. Isaac, Jacob and Joseph all received the promises of GOD (spiritual inheritance) from their fathers.

Also, though I didn't mention it and you did, Adam's curse did pass on to all men.

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

συνείδησις said:
I did. Isaac, Jacob and Joseph all received the promises of GOD (spiritual inheritance) from their fathers.

Also, though I didn't mention it and you did, Adam's curse did pass on to all men.

You need to provide the scriptures that you have in mind so I can form my response to all of this.

συνείδησις · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
You need to provide the scriptures that you have in mind so I can form my response to all of this.

Sorry, they're easy to find.

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Sorry, they're easy to find.

Alright, I'll give you a bit longer to gather them and I'll hold back my reply until then.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

Akita Suggagaki said:
And when he blunders we all suffer for it.

This is true of all the world leaders, religious and politic and financial and medical, and the whole world suffers much for all of their blunders(willful and unwitting both) every day.

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
This is true of all the world leaders, religious and politic and financial and medical, and the whole world suffers much for all of their blunders(willful and unwitting both) every day.

You didn't mention Christians! (1 Corinthians 12:26).

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
The exact wording of the curse says: "because you have ... This shall be for you", and they were cursed individually based upon their own actions. It is not said that the curse was intended to apply to any other person such as a blessing that God promises upon an offspring (except that there would be enmity between them). Can you please show a relevant example in support of the fourth point?

Look: (not based upon "their own actions" of people later thru today)
"Genesis 3:17 And to Adam He said: "Because you have listened to the ...

biblehub.com/genesis/3-17.htm
Because of what you have done, the ground will be under a curse. .. "

and still is.....

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
You didn't mention Christians! (1 Corinthians 12:26).

So ?

Serving Zion · Jul 22, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Look: (not based upon "their own actions" of people later thru today)
"Genesis 3:17 And to Adam He said: "Because you have listened to the ...

biblehub.com/genesis/3-17.htm
Because of what you have done, the ground will be under a curse. .. "

and still is.....

Ah, yes, the whole world groans as it waits for the revealing of the sons of God

yeshuaslavejeff said:
So ?

It's probably the most important principle to keep in mind, as to why the world still groans (1 Corinthians 1:12-13, Galatians 5:15).

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
You didn't mention Christians! (1 Corinthians 12:26).

That's because we are in the section GT. Some things are allowed in other sections that are not allowed here.

συνείδησις · Jul 22, 2018

Serving Zion said:
Alright, I'll give you a bit longer to gather them and I'll hold back my reply until then.

What I meant was, I'm not going to gather them.

How does representation by Adam make any sense?

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