How do you : "Fall from Grace"

[Soyeong]

(1) Yes, God sowed good seed that produced saved "wheat"
in the church. But Satan sowed bad see that produced unsaved
"tares" in the church. [Mat 13:18-23 and 36-43]


(2) And God sowed good seed but much of it fell on bad ground
called "the wayside" and "stony places" and the "thorns"... so that
good seed did not produce any "fruit". However SOME of that seed
fell on "good ground" and did produce fruit [Mat 13:3-9 and 18-23]


So, when I asked you a simple question:





And you respond by saying "God sowed good seed"...
you only demonstrate (with your non-answer) that your
theology is broken.


You can talk about "falling from Grace" all day long...
but you are talking about people who NEVER HAD Grace,
so you are preaching nonsense - not found in Scripture.


Jim

I did not give a non-answer, but rather you granted that God sowed good seed, which contradicts your claim that neither had grace and undermines that basis of your question. However, even if I hadn't responded to your question, then that wouldn't established that my theology us broken or that I was preaching nonsense.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not sure where you're coming from. That salvation involves our partisipation, or that it requaires our partisipation? Or more closely put, does our salvation require a certain level of performance from us? And if so to what degree? 100%? Is anything less than 100% good enough? If so what's the qualifying minimum? 80%? I honestly don't know regarding that concept.

The interesting thing to me in MacArthur saying what he said in that clip, is that he's one of the most prominent teachers of Lordship Salvation.

Our salvation from living in disobedience to God's law inherently requires choosing to live in obedience to it through faith. Our obedience to God's law had always been about expressing our faith and had never been about needing to have a good enough performance. In jeremiah 6:16, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that our obedience to it is about having a good enough performance robs our souls of the rest that it was intended to give.

 

[ozso]

Our salvation from living in disobedience to God's law inherently requires choosing to live in obedience to it through faith. Our obedience to God's law had always been about expressing our faith and had never been about needing to have a good enough performance. In jeremiah 6:16, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that our obedience to it is about having a good enough performance robs our souls of the rest that it was intended to give.

But weren't blood sacrifices needed for atonement because no one can be truly obedient? And that Jesus in turn was the ultimate and final blood sacrifice to atone for the fact that all of us fall short of obedience? Romans 3:23-24

 

[Dan Perez]

I said i dont use the K-Greek to correct the Bible.

Think about this Dan.....
God's foreknowledge understood that there would come a time that the world wide universal language was going to be English.
If you go to any country in the world, today...... you'll find that english is the language that matters most, other than each countries own language.
In this world, its ENGLISH that has the most universal context, just like its the US Dollar that is the monetary standard in the World.
So, God created the English bible, because He knew that English was going to be the dominant universal language till the end of the end times, long before Tyndale's version and the KJV showed up hundreds of years ago.

Also, you have to be really careful in the Church age we are living in regarding people who correct the English Bible with the Greek text, as many who do this are not just teaching from the Greek, they are actually recreating doctrine, according to their cult mentality, by revising NT doctrine, as their own theology.

Notice who expounds the bible using the Greek, vs who is always "correcting" the bible with the Greek.
That's your 1st clue.

Hi and why , THEN are there Greek scholars that spend their lives TRANSLATING Greek into English , OTHERWISE we would have no English BIBLE , as there are many COPIES of the GREEK TEXT , like the Textus Rceptus , maiority TEXT , BYZANTINE TEXT , MINORITY TEXT , ALEXANDRIAN , WESTCOTT TEXT and HORT TEXT , NESTLE'S TEXT and the NESTLE'S-ALAND TEXT , so take your pick !!

And all Greek scholars do not also agree as most Greek words have more that one meaning , like the Greek word PHULAKE ( G5438 ) watch , has many meanings !!

dan p

 

[Brightfame52]

I mentioned being born again because the post I responded to mentioned, but I didn't mention being indwelt by the Holy Spirit because the post I responded to didn't mention it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God.



If God is gracious to us be teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29) and by teaching us to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and for how to renounce doing what is ungodly (Titus 2:11-14), then those who reject that teaching are rejecting God's grace.



God sowed good seed.



We do not earn our salvation by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that our salvation does not require obedience to it for the purposes for which it was given. Again, the Mosaic Law is how the Israelites knew how to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and how to renounce doing what is ungodly, and in Titus 2:11-14, that is what our salvation involves being trained by grace to do. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Christ, and whether we know Christ is a salvation issue.

The Mosaic Covenant is often described as a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to experientially know Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of earth, so delighting in expressing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to have a relationship with God. Again, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, in John 14:7, knowing Christ is knowing the Father, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is the way to experientially know Christ. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen not know him.

However, Jews can still keep the law while missing the whole goal of the law is to know Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, however, they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to have a relationship with Christ and come to him for eternal life. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat, where he had been keeping the law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.



2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Grace and knowledge of Christ are things that people can grow in, but are not all at the same growth level.

Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law. All those things pointed to Christ for ultimate fulfillment. Christ kept obeyed the law for His People, the Elect.

 

[Soyeong]

Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law.

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

All those things pointed to Christ for ultimate fulfillment.

Indeed, everything in the Mosaic Law points toward Jesus, and as his follower we should walk in a way that points toward Jesus by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law rather than walking in a way that that points away from him.

Christ kept obeyed the law for His People, the Elect.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ obeyed the Mosaic Law for his people. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so saying that he obeyed the Mosaic Law for us would be like saying that he loved the Father and his neighbor for us so that we don't have to, but rather he walked in obedience to the law so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

 

[Brightfame52]

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.



Indeed, everything in the Mosaic Law points toward Jesus, and as his follower we should walk in a way that points toward Jesus by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law rather than walking in a way that that points away from him.



Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ obeyed the Mosaic Law for his people. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so saying that he obeyed the Mosaic Law for us would be like saying that he loved the Father and his neighbor for us so that we don't have to, but rather he walked in obedience to the law so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

Who do you think He did it for? Who did He die for?

 

[Soyeong]

Who do you think He did it for? Who did He die for?

Jesus did not obey the law for anyone so that we don't have to obey it, but rather he died for the whole world to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus did not obey the law for anyone so that we don't have to obey it, but rather he died for the whole world to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey God's law and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

Wrong He did it for the same ones He died for.

 

[Soyeong]

Wrong He did it for the same ones He died for.

The Bible does not say anything about the concept of obeying the law for another person.

 

[Soyeong]

But weren't blood sacrifices needed for atonement because no one can be truly obedient? And that Jesus in turn was the ultimate and final blood sacrifice to atone for the fact that all of us fall short of obedience? Romans 3:23-24

In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for everyone who believes, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same means as everyone else. Likewise, Abraham was declared righteous by grace through faith. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous by obeying His law, so that was never the purpose for why we should obey it and there has never been something that we earn if we manage to have perfect obedience.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. We obey the law whenever we do something that it instructs, but if we needed perfect obedience in order to qualify as obeying the law, then that would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

 

[Soyeong]

The law came by Moses.
Grace and Truth Came by Jesus.

There is no obedience to the law, required to be born again., and you can't be saved unless you are born again.
So, living in the Old Testament, and keeping all the commandments and the Law, yet not being born again, ....is how you die and go straight to hell.

"falling from Grace" is to turn from Christ, back to trying to keep laws and commandments, to try to stay saved.
This is Legalism, and its Galatians 1:8
Don't teach that, Soyeong.

In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so one example of grace was added on top of another. While we do not earn being born again by obeying the law, we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and God's law is His instructions for equipping us to do good every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Furthermore, in 1 John 3:4-10, sin is the transgression of God's law, practicing sin in disobedience to it is contrasted with practicing righteousness in obedience to it, and those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God, so obedience to the law is not the way to become born again, but rather it is what being born again looks like, though I agree that it is possible to for someone to obey the law while not being born again by missing the goal of the law, which is the nature of God. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so they were obeying the law while missing it goal.

A chip off of the old block is someone who has the same character and nature as their Father, and this is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God because he is the exactly expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3) and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ through partaking in His nature, and this is what it means for us to be sons of God/born again.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations (Matthew 24:12-14). The same goes for Acts 2:38 for how Peter’s audience knew what sin is when he told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus about teaching repentance from our sins. It is Gospel that doesn't teach repentance from our from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law that is another Gospel (Galatians 1:8).

Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers were are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so there is no sense in thinking that the way to turn from Christ is by following what Christ spent his ministry teaching us how to do by word and by example.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Bible does not say anything about the concept of obeying the law for another person.

Sure it does, He was made under the Law to redeem the people He represented from the curse of the law. The law required #1 Perfect obedience to its precepts #2 Death for any sin against it, Christs obedience unto death covered both aspects for His People. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thats word righteous is the greek word δίκαιος:

ghteous, observing divine laws

1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
   
   
2. All for whom Christ lived and died, through Him have kept, and our keeping all the commands of God and are counted righteous. By His representative obedience.

If you didnt know that, its a shame all i can say, Thats Major Gospel Truth

 

[Eilat]

Hi and why , THEN are there Greek scholars that spend their lives TRANSLATING Greek into English , OTHERWISE we would have no English BIBLE , as there are many COPIES of the GREEK TEXT , like the Textus Rceptus , maiority TEXT , BYZANTINE TEXT , MINORITY TEXT , ALEXANDRIAN , WESTCOTT TEXT and HORT TEXT , NESTLE'S TEXT and the NESTLE'S-ALAND TEXT , so take your pick !!
And all Greek scholars do not also agree as most Greek words have more that one meaning , like the Greek word PHULAKE ( G5438 ) watch , has many meanings !!

dan p

As i was saying Dan,
God understood that the end times world, would be an english speaking situation.
So, God created English bibles, 400 yrs ago obo, and ever since, using translators.

But where the issue hits the fan is when The Devil gets involved in all this..

See, there are about 30 "extant" Greek Texts, but the Protestant Church does not recognize all these as Legit.
The Catholic Church uses a Latin Translation that the Protestant Church, does not use and does not accept.

The Devil, is real, and he understands that if he can get deceived translators to create really bad versions, then that a WIN for him, and that has happened.

Also, the idea that the bible is substandard, and we have to use the Greek Text to get to the truth, is a fallacy.
Just like the Devil wants to set himself up as the final authority,...so does "scholarship" want to do the same, and one of the ways you fake this, is to try to convince people that the bible is not as good as the "original" Greek Texts,.... using the deceit that says....>"The original Greek" is the best, when in fact there is no original Greek manuscripts.... Its all copies of copies.

Here is the reality.....Its perfectly fine to learn how to read Greek texts, and it perfectly fine to use them, but its not ok to try to create the false perspective that the Greek is superior to the Bible, by saying. "the original greek" is the authority...... as there are no original greek manuscripts.

 

[Eilat]

Please explain to me how JESUS can say that ALL MEN
the Father gives to Him "shall come" to Him and He
will lose NONE of them [John 6:36,39]

Jim

I can explain it..... no prob.

Like this....
God gives all who believe on Jesus, to Jesus as His Bride. His Bride is all the Born again.

Now here is how to think about it..

The seed of God is The Word. The word, is the Gospel. The Gospel is planted in the HEART of a BELIEVER, by Faith, and God waters this Faith with the Blood Of Jesus and this Holy Seed becomes the "new Birth"..the "new Creation"..... "IN Christ".

So, see that.= "in Christ"?

When we are born again, we become birthed into God, as " IN Christ", as His Bride, and His Church.

Now, what im teaching is how to see this reality, as a Christian Mystic would teach it.
So, this means im teaching it spiritually, vs, just quoting verses that you might not understand.
I always teach by opening light, and seldom by just quoting random verses.
And if a person who is reading me, is a student of the word, they will recognize, in all my posts, and in all my Threads, how im teaching theology : as Light.
If you are not a student of the word, but are born again, then there is a better chance you will SEE it, by me teaching it Spiritually, then if i just quoted verse, and you tried to puzzle them together.

So, if what i just taught, was not at first, making perfect sense to you, then read it again or maybe 3 times and you'll begin to see how The Seed of the Gospel, planted in the heart of faith, then watered by the Holy Spirit and the Blood of Jesus, becomes a HARVEST in the Spirit......as "born again".
And that harvest is given to Jesus, and Jesus will lose none of them... because He is eternally Reaping what He Himself has sown on//by the Cross, His death, and His resurrection.

The born again are a spiritual harvest that Christ died to achieve.
We the born again are this spiritual harvest who now EXIST for all eternity, "In Christ"< and "One with God and Christ".

 

[Eilat]

I am sorry to see that you have not understood the Gospel.
Saving faith is NOT something that man produces and then
God SEES that good work and "accepts it".
Jim

I have not said that "all that call upon the name of Jesus" or.. "as many as believe on Jesus, Jesus gives to them eternal life"....is a "good work".
So, your quote is not mine.

And everyone who is born again, is born again by "Grace through Faith", and that faith is in the person, who has heard the Gospel and BELIEVED.
To Believe is to have the FAITH, that God requires to redeem you using the Blood of Jesus.

 

[Eilat]

The prodigal was absolutely "born again" BEFORE he fell away
because His Father said that he was now "alive again". He could
not be "alive again" if he was never alive before his falling away.

Jim,
When Jesus taught the parable of the Prodigal son, Jesus had not yet died on the Cross.
There was no Holy Spirit yet given and even the Apostles were not born again yet.
So, your teaching that a Prodigal, who comes back to the Father, has to be understood symbolically, in the same way as the shepherd who leaves his 99 sheep for the one.

Let me show you a key to understanding how to rightly divide the NT.
In general....
You have what Jesus says before He died on the Cross, and you have what Jesus said after He died on the Cross.
If you compare them, you'll note that He is teaching Israel before the Cross, and He is teaching the Church after He rose from the Dead.

Also, Jesus often spoke related to not just the "time of the Gentiles" that started with the Cross, but also, He speaks regarding what happens after the time of the Gentiles.

So, where people become a theological mess, usually, in in the Book of Hebrews, James, and especially verses in Matthew, that are given before the Resurrection.

Jesus came to the "House of Israel", and often He is talking to them.

 

[Dan Perez]

As i was saying Dan,
God understood that the end times world, would be an english speaking situation.
So, God created English bibles, 400 yrs ago obo, and ever since, using translators.

But where the issue hits the fan is when The Devil gets involved in all this..

See, there are about 30 "extant" Greek Texts, but the Protestant Church does not recognize all these as Legit.
The Catholic Church uses a Latin Translation that the Protestant Church, does not use and does not accept.

The Devil, is real, and he understands that if he can get deceived translators to create really bad versions, then that a WIN for him, and that has happened.

Also, the idea that the bible is substandard, and we have to use the Greek Text to get to the truth, is a fallacy.
Just like the Devil wants to set himself up as the final authority,...so does "scholarship" want to do the same, and one of the ways you fake this, is to try to convince people that the bible is not as good as the "original" Greek Texts,.... using the deceit that says....>"The original Greek" is the best, when in fact there is no original Greek manuscripts.... Its all copies of copies.

Here is the reality.....Its perfectly fine to learn how to read Greek texts, and it perfectly fine to use them, but its not ok to try to create the false perspective that the Greek is superior to the Bible, by saying. "the original greek" is the authority...... as there are no original greek manuscripts.

Hi and there bare over 5600 Greek manuscripts of the Hewn Testament ( most of them only partial and that is why we have what is called TEXTUAL CRITICISM , but you new that , RIGHT !!

dan p

 

[Eilat]

I EVERY MAN
that becomes saved was "chosen" or "elected" to be part of
"His Sheep" before the foundation of the world. This is a
very basic and essential element of the Gospel.

Jim

Your theology is not correct, and denies the Cross and the Gift of Salvation.
Thats Galatians 1:8

Listen, God does not choose you to be born to go to hell, or choose you to be born to go to heaven.
God's foreknowledge does not choose, but rather it KNOWS, who will chose Christ or not, even before they are born.
So, Foreknowledge is not God Choosing, but its God knowing who will choose Christ or reject Christ.
God knows this about each of use, before we are born, but that knowing is not choosing for us.
The predestined elect blindness theology, is to confuse Knowing with causing.
The predestined elect are blind to this, and can't understand it, so they teach it as the deception of..>"God's knowing a thing before it happens... is God causing it to happen.
So, that theology is a twisted fail on every level....including the ability to read english or think logically.

"the ELECT"..... is God knowing what each of use will choose, before we are even born, yet not causing it.

Let me make it simple for you, reader.

If you are born again, then before your parents met, and before Adam and Eve existed, God KNEW you would be born, and God KNEW you would be born again.
He KNEW it, but He didnt cause it.
And the part of God that KNEW IT< is God's "Foreknowledge".
Foreknowledge is God knowing a thing, all things, before they happen.

Here is another example.
Before God made the world, Through Jesus the Word.......God knew that He' would flood out all the homosexuality and similar sexual perversion, and start over with 8 on a big boat.
He know all this, before He even created the world, as that knowing all, is the "foreknowledge of God".
But knowing is not Causing.........Knowing is simply knowing. = "ForeKnowledge"
Or, all things known BE-FORE ...they happen in reality....thats God's Foreknowledge.

 

[Eilat]

Hi and there bare over 5600 Greek manuscripts of the Hewn Testament ( most of them only partial and that is why we have what is called TEXTUAL CRITICISM , but you new that , RIGHT !!

dan p

Aren't you glad that Wikipedia is there for you?
Just imagine what you would not be able to post if you could not go and find it online.
Good for you .

So, as i was saying, there are 30 known Greek Texts, in existence, obo, ... that are completed .
These are all copies of copies.
They are the entire NT. but most of them are not accepted, by those who are "scholars".
The '"received Greek text" that created the KJV, and the 2 that are accepted as "Nestles", are used to created most "new" bibles. However, most new bibles are a product of the particular theology that is believed by the Translators, and that is where the corruption comes in..
Its like this reader.......the end result is always a product of the source......... So, if the translators of a bible are Mormons, or Catholics, or """Insert Denomination"...then the end result bible is going to be the overarching NT Theology regarding those who created it.
They will SLANT the doctrine to fit their theological ideology.
That's how the Devil ruins "new" bibles.