How do you : "Fall from Grace"

[5thKingdom]

To fall from grace. Its to at one time profess that all of your salvation was conditioned on the Sovereign Grace of God in Christ, to change your profession to now saying that in some way, your salvation is conditioned upon man.

And what specific SCRIPTURE teaches such a thing?
Or is that your "interpretation"... and, if so, what Scripture
do you THINK teaches such a doctrine?

Please provide chapter and verse.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

God is Sovereign, but Grace is based on "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".
and.....>"all that BELIEVE on Jesus, shall be saved".

No, "grace" is God's unmerited favor or mercy

You have to hear the Gospel, and God will bring you to the Cross in your heart and understanding, using the Holy Sprit to draw you to the Cross and Christ, and you then choose to believe, as God does not choose for you, and what you choose determines where you end up after you die.

That doctrine you describe is not Biblical.
Men do not DECIDE to believe or not believe.
That would be a "works gospel"... a false gospel.


The Bible is very clear on this point in John 6.
Jesus explained that NO MAN can come to Him unless
the Father first "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws
"shall come". Jesus did not say SOME MEN will come...
He clearly said ALL MEN would come to Him
(and He will lose NONE of them)


There is nowhere in the Gospel of Christ where MEN DECIDE
to believe or not believe. Part of the regeneration process is
that God gives us a new heart with the ABILITY and DESIRE
to "believe". Saving "faith" is a GIFT of God, and not of men,
lest any should boast.


Natural man (those not regenerated) are spiritually DEAD and
the Bible PROMISES that NO MAN (no, not even one) will ever
"seek God". This Biblical fact is so important it is written in both
the OT and NT.


God declares that HE "elects" or "chooses" who He will save
before the foundation of the world, based ONLY on His Own
Good Pleasure and NOT on anything that person would do
(or would not do) during their lifetime.

If you die a Christ Rejector, you have committed THE Sin, that can't be forgiven.

No, the "unforgivable sin" is not unbelief.
It is the belief that Jesus was Satanic.

Now, "falling from Grace" simply means that your faith has become corrupted because it no longer truly BELIEVES that Jesus who Saved you will keep you saved..
You have left this faith in Christ as the only WAY to Heaven, and are now trying to keep yourself saved, which has become your real faith, and THAT Faith, is "fallen from Grace", and back into "the flesh", as Paul teaches in Galatians.

Again, no, that is not Biblical.
Since saving "faith" is a GIFT of God (not a work of man)
and it imparts ETERNAL LIFE... your "doctrine" above is not found
in the Bible. If you think that I am wrong then simply send the
specific chapter and verse that says anything like what you
wrote above.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

There are over 160 translation of the bible is ENGLISH and do you believe they are ALL INSPIRED ??dan p

First, the Bible is very clear that the elect are "indwelt" with
the Holy Spirit that TEACHES THEM Gospel Truth.

Secondly, today we can use a concordance to see EVERY PLACE
God used a certain word - and that allow us to understand how
GOD DEFINES the word that HE CHOSE to use... since that
is what "inspired" means - right Dan?

A good example is G5438 in Strong's concordance.

Jim

 

[Soyeong]

So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To "fall from Grace",..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands..."im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a deceiver, by the Devil.
Paul teaches this as "Who has bewitched you"... in Galatians.
The born again get subverted away from their initial ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
Still born again, but faith corrupted...or "in the flesh", as Paul teaches.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, this faith corrupted person can't SEE that you can't be more saved than you are, when you are born again....and remain so.
They can't SEE this, because their mind is blinded to this truth, as that is the devil's ability to cause this, by building a stronghold in their mind that is a subverting of real faith.

Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT : "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
The mind blinded faith corrupted, can't SEE this, as this eternal truth has become veiled to them, as this is how the Law that they are trying to maintain to "stay saved", has blinded them.
Its Satan using a person's self righteousness to cause this mind blinded stronghold.

This Legalist has no FAITH anymore that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become .."im doing this or im not to do that"..and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost"""""" this person cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
"Fallen from Grace".

Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven... and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, to commandment keep.... as your Cross that decides if you go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross," to get you into heaven.. and maintain your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has lost sight of the Truth..., then they are faith subverted because they have a Mental STRONGHOLD that is their spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".
Its to exist in that spiritual blindness as your actual Faith.
And if you are there, you can't SEE it.

THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as free gift to me, then their training would itself be the content of their free gift, and participating in that training would do nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it, and our salvation is the same type of free gift that involves graciously being taught by God. So our obedience to the Mosaic Law does not earn our salvation, but rather being taught to obey it is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so again God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what the free gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to have faith in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross (Acts 21:20).

In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so if following God's law for how to do good works were the way to fall from grace, then that we mean that we are born again for the purpose of falling from grace, which is absurd. Likewise, it would be absurd to think that David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace, or that we have received grace in order to bring about our fall from grace, or that our salvation involves being trained by grace to fall from grace.

In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the free gift of God. So being a slave to God and to righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law is again the content of the free gift. Likewise, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is again the free gift of God and what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of heaven, and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to experientially know Christ, which is the free gift of salvation.

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and the way to wholly put our trust in him is by following what he taught by word and by example. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying Him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like.

God's righteous laws reveal His righteousness and teach us how to testify about His righteousness, but we never given as a means of establishing our own righteousness. If God's law were his instructions for how to become self-righteous and God does not want us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore does not want to be obeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message, therefore it was not given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, but as instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness.

If God is a legalist for commanding the Mosaic Law and if Jesus is a legalist for sinlessly teaching how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist is being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to. Rather, it is those who refuse to submit to God's law who have fallen from grace.

 

[5thKingdom]

If God is a legalist for commanding the Mosaic Law and if Jesus is a legalist for sinlessly teaching how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist is being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to. Rather, it is those who refuse to submit to God's law who have fallen from grace.

(1) First, I see you mention the Mosaic Law about a dozen times
and yet you did not mention being "born again" or "indwelt" by
the Holy Spirit even ONE time. Why is that? Which is more
important?


(2) Secondly, you say "those who refuse to submit to God's law...
have fallen from grace".

(a) All non-Christians refuse to submit to God's law...
have they "fallen from Grace"?

(b) Most professing Christians are unsaved "tares" (sown by
Satan and destined to hell) instead of saved "wheat"...
have they fallen from Grace?

In BOTH of these examples the people NEVER HAD God's Grace,
so how could they have possibly "fallen from Grace"?
And, in fact, many act VERY RIGHTEOUSLY, with
respect to keeping the Mosaic Law.


(3) Thirdly, do you actually think keeping the Mosaic Law
can save? There are MANY Jews that keep the Mosaic Law
better than most Christians... are they saved?


(4) Finally, since Jesus reveals that SAVED PEOPLE produce "fruit",
some thirty-fold, others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
How (exactly) does your "fallen from Grace" theory apply to the
men ONLY producing thirty-fold... instead of one hundred-fold?

Clearly they are "refusing to submit" as much as others...
have they "fallen from grace"?


Jim

 

[Soyeong]

(1) First, I see you mention the Mosaic Law about a dozen times
and yet you did not mention being "born again" or "indwelt" by
the Holy Spirit even ONE time. Why is that? Which is more
important?

I mentioned being born again because the post I responded to mentioned, but I didn't mention being indwelt by the Holy Spirit because the post I responded to didn't mention it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God.

(2) Secondly, you say "those who refuse to submit to God's law...
have fallen from grace".

(a) All non-Christians refuse to submit to God's law...
have they "fallen from Grace"?

If God is gracious to us be teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29) and by teaching us to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and for how to renounce doing what is ungodly (Titus 2:11-14), then those who reject that teaching are rejecting God's grace.

(b) Most professing Christians are unsaved "tares" (sown by
Satan and destined to hell) instead of saved "wheat"...
have they fallen from Grace?

In BOTH of these examples the people NEVER HAD God's Grace,
so how could they have possibly "fallen from Grace"?
And, in fact, many act VERY RIGHTEOUSLY, with
respect to keeping the Mosaic Law.

God sowed good seed.

(3) Thirdly, do you actually think keeping the Mosaic Law
can save? There are MANY Jews that keep the Mosaic Law
better than most Christians... are they saved?

We do not earn our salvation by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that our salvation does not require obedience to it for the purposes for which it was given. Again, the Mosaic Law is how the Israelites knew how to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and how to renounce doing what is ungodly, and in Titus 2:11-14, that is what our salvation involves being trained by grace to do. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Christ, and whether we know Christ is a salvation issue.

The Mosaic Covenant is often described as a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to experientially know Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of earth, so delighting in expressing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to have a relationship with God. Again, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, in John 14:7, knowing Christ is knowing the Father, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is the way to experientially know Christ. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen not know him.

However, Jews can still keep the law while missing the whole goal of the law is to know Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, however, they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to have a relationship with Christ and come to him for eternal life. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat, where he had been keeping the law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.

(4) Finally, since Jesus reveals that SAVED PEOPLE produce "fruit",
some thirty-fold, others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
How (exactly) does your "fallen from Grace" theory apply to the
men ONLY producing thirty-fold... instead of one hundred-fold?

Clearly they are "refusing to submit" as much as others...
have they "fallen from grace"?


Jim

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Grace and knowledge of Christ are things that people can grow in, but are not all at the same growth level.

 

[ozso]

There's a short clip I saw recently where John MacArthur succinctly said that if his salvation depended on him, he would lose it.

 

[Soyeong]

There's a clip I saw recently where John MacArthur said that if his salvation depended on him, he would lose it.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation does involve our participation.

 

[ozso]

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation does involve our participation.

I'm not sure where you're coming from. That salvation involves our partisipation, or that it requaires our partisipation? Or more closely put, does our salvation require a certain level of performance from us? And if so to what degree? 100%? Is anything less than 100% good enough? If so what's the qualifying minimum? 80%? I honestly don't know regarding that concept.

The interesting thing to me in MacArthur saying what he said in that clip, is that he's one of the most prominent teachers of Lordship Salvation.

 

[Eilat]

Only the ORIGINALD AUTOGRAPHS are INSPIRED !!

There is no "original" Greek Text.
All are copies.
So, if you are looking for an "original", as penned by the Apostles, stop looking.
If you are told that there is an "origianal" Greek text, then you were told a lie.
All Greek texts are copies of copies.
There is no "original Greek" text.

So, what does this mean?
It means that when someone is standing in a Pulpit and they tell you....."now in the original greek, this actually means"......
If they say that then :
1.) They have no idea they are lying.
2.) They are lying.
3.) They are a bible corrector, and you should avoid all bible correctors who correct the bible with what does not exist = "the original greek text".

 

[ozso]

I always took "in the original Greek" to mean the original language the texts were written in, rather than meaning the original manuscript pined by the author himself.

 

[Eilat]

and bad ground [those not elected to salvation].


Jim

No one is "elected to salvation".
All are offered Salvation, and God knows who will take it, and who wont, but he does not CHOOSE it for you.
So, the lie, is, that God chooses Salvation for some, but not all.
The Truth is..... John 3:16. "whosoever WILL"......is the reality.
That means that Salvation is a universal offer, to ALL.
The Cross is for ALL, not just some..
God's Grace is not excluding of some, and inclusive of SOME others, as if that was the case, the Grace would not be Grace, and Mercy would not be mercy.

 

[Eilat]

Yes, I said those who are regenerated (born again or "indwelt")
can fall away. But normally you "come to your senses" and
run back to your Father... as shown in the prodigal.

The prodigal son is not born again.
Is a story, a parable.

If you are born again, then you are always born again.
You dont stop being born again, simply because you are not a good person or a great Christian.
God didnt save you because you were good, ..He saved you because you were a dirty rotten sinner, with no Righteousness.
So, God came here, to die on a Cross to GIVE YOU His Righteousness, as "the Gift of Righteousness". = so that HE could ACCEPT YOU.
God accepts you based on the Blood of Jesus, and not based on how you behave.
And if you are born again, you have become "the righteousness of God, IN Christ" and you remain so, no matter how you behave.
BORN AGAIN, is why you go to heaven.
Not being Born Again, is why you go to Hell.
How you behave, has no effect on that reality.

 

[Eilat]

That doctrine you describe is not Biblical.
Men do not DECIDE to believe or not believe.
That would be a "works gospel"... a false gospel.

Jim

JIm,

a person is born again because they hear the Gospel and believe on Jesus, and God takes this faith, accepts it, as "justified by faith", or "Grace THROUGH Faith".= Born Again.

So, that's Salvation.
Its a Gift.

 

[Eilat]

. So our obedience to the Mosaic Law does not earn our salvation, but rather being taught to obey it is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation.

The law came by Moses.
Grace and Truth Came by Jesus.

There is no obedience to the law, required to be born again., and you can't be saved unless you are born again.
So, living in the Old Testament, and keeping all the commandments and the Law, yet not being born again, ....is how you die and go straight to hell.

"falling from Grace" is to turn from Christ, back to trying to keep laws and commandments, to try to stay saved.
This is Legalism, and its Galatians 1:8
Don't teach that, Soyeong.

 

[5thKingdom]

God sowed good seed.

(1) Yes, God sowed good seed that produced saved "wheat"
in the church. But Satan sowed bad see that produced unsaved
"tares" in the church. [Mat 13:18-23 and 36-43]


(2) And God sowed good seed but much of it fell on bad ground
called "the wayside" and "stony places" and the "thorns"... so that
good seed did not produce any "fruit". However SOME of that seed
fell on "good ground" and did produce fruit [Mat 13:3-9 and 18-23]


So, when I asked you a simple question:

(b) Most professing Christians are unsaved "tares" (sown by
Satan and destined to hell) instead of saved "wheat"...
have they fallen from Grace?

In BOTH of these examples the people NEVER HAD God's Grace,
so how could they have possibly "fallen from Grace"?
And, in fact, many act VERY RIGHTEOUSLY, with
respect to keeping the Mosaic Law.

And you respond by saying "God sowed good seed"...
you only demonstrate (with your non-answer) that your
theology is broken.


You can talk about "falling from Grace" all day long...
but you are talking about people who NEVER HAD Grace,
so you are preaching nonsense - not found in Scripture.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

"falling from Grace" is to turn from Christ, back to trying to keep laws and commandments, to try to stay saved.

Please explain to me how JESUS can say that ALL MEN
the Father gives to Him "shall come" to Him and He
will lose NONE of them [John 6:36,39]

And yet you say that those who are IN CHRIST can be lost.
Who should we believe.... you or Jesus Christ?

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

JIm,
a person is born again because they hear the Gospel and believe on Jesus, and God takes this faith, accepts it, as "justified by faith"

I am sorry to see that you have not understood the Gospel.
Saving faith is NOT something that man produces and then
God SEES that good work and "accepts it". That is a false
"works gospel" (a "boaster's gospel) that contradicts both
the OT and NT which PROMISE that (before regeneration)
NO MAN will ever "seek God"... no, not even one.
[Rom 3:10-12]


The Bible is clear that God GIVES FAITH to man.
To believe men produce faith BEFORE regeneration
is to follow the synergistic heresy of Satan.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The prodigal son is not born again. Is a story, a parable.

I am sorry to see that you do not understand that Jesus
spoke in parables so those who are NOT part of the
"Kingdom of God" would not understand
[Mark 4:11-12]


A "parable" is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.
Those who are part of the "Kingdom of God" understand that fact.
[Mark 4:11-12]


The prodigal was absolutely "born again" BEFORE he fell away
because His Father said that he was now "alive again". He could
not be "alive again" if he was never alive before his falling away.

If you are born again, then you are always born again.
You dont stop being born again, simply because you are not a good person or a great Christian.

But many (if not all) who are "born again" have periods of time
when they "fall away" and require correction from God. This
does not mean they LOST their salvation, so you should
not assume otherwise.


Heb 12:6-8
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth
every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom
the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God didnt save you because you were good,

No one suggested such a thing.
So your comment is nonsensical

So, God came here, to die on a Cross to GIVE YOU
His Righteousness, as "the Gift of Righteousness".

I am sorry to see that you do not understand that Jesus
PAID for the sins of "His Sheep" and no others. Jesus did
not PAY for the sins of people who were NEVER MEANT to
be saved. Otherwise there would be nobody in hell and
there would be no "children of Satan".


Mark 4:11-12 makes it very clear that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven" (through His Atonement).


Obviously people who cannot "have their sins forgiven"
were NEVER MEANT to be saved. So you are preaching
"another gospel" when you say God came to save men
who could not have "their sins forgiven".


Moreover, in Matthew 13 Jesus teaches that some men in
the church are unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and, as the
"children of Satan" they are destined to eternal torment.
These unsaved "tares" were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


And Romans 9 teaches that God CREATES some men to be
"vessels of mercy" (saved) others "vessels of wrath" (unsaved).
He CREATES some men to be "vessels of honor" (saved) and
others to be "vessels of dishonor" (unsaved).


For you to pretend that ALL MEN were CREATED to be "His Sheep"
is just you pretending... and is contrary to MANY different Scriptures.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

No one is "elected to salvation".

I am sorry to see that you do not understand that EVERY MAN
that becomes saved was "chosen" or "elected" to be part of
"His Sheep" before the foundation of the world. This is a
very basic and essential element of the Gospel.

All are offered Salvation,

You comment is so naive it is PAINFUL to see.


(1) Please tell me, how many people were "offered salvation"
during Noah's Flood (the answer is 8 people in all the world)


(2) Please tell me, how many people were "offered salvation"
in Sodom? God promised not to destroy the city if there were
only 10 righteous... and there must have been HUNDREDS of
babies in the city. Yet ALL were destroyed and destined to
eternal torment.


(3) Please tell me, how many Gentiles were "offered Salvation"
during the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] Obviously
the notion that "all were offered salvation" is pure heresy because,
with only a few exceptions, God was ONLY saving (some) Jews.


(4) Please tell me, how many of the unsaved "tares" in the church
who were sown by Satan and destined to the same fate as Satan
(being the "children of Satan") were "offered salvation"?


(5) Please tell me, were the people who were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven" also "offered salvation"?
Your premise is complete nonsense.


(6) Please tell me, were the men God CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath" offered salvation? Were the men God
CREATED to be "vessels of destruction" offered salvation?


You are preaching the heresy of synergism which contradicts
so many Scriptures I could spend all day showing you examples.
Essentially, in the church, there are basically TWO (2) "gospels".
The True Gospel of monergism, which is the narrow way that
leads FEW Christians into eternal life - and the heresy of synergism
which is the BROAD WAY leading MANY "Christians" into eternal
damnation. I am sorry to see you are preaching synergism.

John 3:16. "whosoever WILL"......

Again you are so naive it is PAINFUL to see.
Nobody disputes that "whosoever WILL"... however the BIBLE
tells us that (before regeneration) NO MAN will ever "seek God"
no, not even one.


And Jesus taught salvation by election saying that NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father "draws" them and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He will lose NONE.


Please tell me... What part of NO MAN and ALL MEN
do you not understand?


So the (Biblical) CONTEXT of "whosoever will"...
is limited to those who (a) are regenerated (saved) because
(b) they were "chosen" or "elected" to be part of "His sheep"
before the foundation of the world... based ONLY on the
Good Pleasure of God and NOT on anything they would
do (or not do) during their lifetime... otherwise you
have a "works gospel", which is heresy.


Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,


The Gospel of the Bible is so simple to understand.
NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" them and
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"... and He loses NONE.


It is interesting that, when His disciples realized Jesus taught
salvation by election MANY of them immediately abandoned Him.
Now, why in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
The answer is simple. They (like most men today) did not want
a salvation plan were GOD is Sovereign and "elects" who He will.
They wanted (as do most men today) a salvation plan where
MEN are sovereign and can decide to do some "good work"
and then God will SEE that "good work" and be OBLIGATED
to finish the salvation process which they started.


The disciples who abandoned Jesus wanted a synergistic gospel.
Just like most men today want a synergistic gospel.
That's why it's the BROAD WAY to destruction.


Jim