How do you : "Fall from Grace"

[wandering misfit]

Who is James talking to/like Galations? We can learn from it, like the law has 2 uses,

 

[wandering misfit]

I don't believe in once saved always saved, I believe in God, once touched always redeemed.

 

[Ben johnson]

shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart

The issue for Reformed Theolgy, is "which comes first --- belief, or regeneration?" RT's emphatically insist that regeneration is monergistic, God makes their hearts new sovereignly before and apart from any repentance or turning to Him, and THEN they repent believe and be saved. 1Cor2:14 "things must come before savlation" -- but that idea is ruined by 1Cor2:12, we receive the Spirit before and in order to get the "things".

2Cor4:3-4 is thought to teach "God must remove the veil over their eyes and THEN they turn to God" -- but 2Cor3:16 ruins that, we turn to God and THEN the veil is removed.

Ezk36:26-27 is thought to teach that God gives us new hearts and THEN we irresistibly turn to God; but Ezk11:18-19, and Ezk18:23 and 30-31 ruin that, "make for YOURSELVES a new heart and new spirit; why will you die? ...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, therefore repent and live."

We turn to God, repent and believe, and THEN we receive new hearts. Note the connection between Rom10:6-10 and Deut30:11-20; Rom10:6 cites Deut30:12, Rom10:8 cites Deut30:14 -- and Deut30:12 is a foundational refutation of Monergism, the basis of Calvinism/Reformed-Theology.

What do you think of these verses?

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't believe in once saved always saved, I believe in God, once touched always redeemed.

I agree with you -- and yet, discussing Biblical things is not a matter of "opinion/agreeing-with-someone", but rather establishing what they wrote, what the Apostles and Jesus said. If we show solid teaching, connecting throughout the Scripture, it is not a matter of "he-said/she-said", there is no "interpretation" (a word only possible when there could be more than one meaning). If it can be established that they taught certain solid principles, then we can "exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" (Titus1:9).

But understand there is only ONE SAVIOR, and we ain't Him; in all we do we are to "speak the truth in LOVE", never purposing to hurt or humiliate a brother for whom Christ died --- our goal is always to encourage and build, never to injure or destroy. Temper every word uttered/written with consideration of how it will land, and whether it spiritual strengthens a brother or sister, or wounds.

 

[JLB777]

No its not, they will remain, its sure !

At some point you are going to have to believe what the scripture says over the false teachers that have seeded your mind with unbiblical ideas.


Listening to and giving heed to false doctrine is one sure way of not remaining in Christ.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16




We all are commanded to obey and follow the doctrine of Christ, and continue to remain (abide) in it, or we will no longer have Christ.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12




JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

Hi, Dan. There are three views of OSAS:
1. Antinomianism (Gnosticism), saved SPIRIT but walking-in-sin FLESH. Thankfully few profess this, though many of the other two views say "backslidden-but-saved". No, that would be Antinomianism, ruined by verses like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, all of 1Jn especially chapter 3...

2. Eternal Security -- unlimited atonement, anyone/everyone CAN be saved but once "in" either too changed to fall, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy (zero Scripture for this). And if God ends someone's life so that his spirit lives, what sin is bad enough for a person to die, but "dying in that sin" will be overlooked by God? What sins are okay with God?

3. Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation (Calvinism, Reformed Theology, etcetera). Atonement is limited, God creates most people to BE sinful and to perish, He only created a few favorites to be saved at some point (all His decision, we have no say).

I don't promote a license to sin (which is a typical straw man argument) and I hold to preservation of the saints. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Actually, the illustration of "plants-on-soils" (withering or flourishing), is applied AFTER a person perseveres or fall.

Permanently falling away is not persevering. Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and persevered. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF FALLING AWAY AFTERWARDS.

Please make a list of verses that say "hold fast and save yourselves" -- like 1 Tim4:16. See Rev3:11 -- "hold fast to what you have, so that no one will steal your crown" -- exactly what crown do you think they will steal? What do you think of 1 Tim4:1?

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well. If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

In regards to Revelation 3:11, the Bible speaks of multiple crowns. The crown of righteousness, the incorruptible crown, the crown of life, the crown of glory and the crown of rejoicing.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

You see, all views of "OSAS" apply a "catch-22", "if a person is unsaved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place."

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

No, it actually is an admonishment to "take care HOW YOU LISTEN" (Luke8:18). We are admonished to hold fast and persevere to be LIKE seed growing on good soil, don't be like seed growing on shallow/rocky/thorny (or bird-ravaged) soil.

Those who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, bear fruit and persevere, unlike the shallow ground hearer who represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established).

It's all cause and effect. What do you think passages like Col2:8 and Jude20-21 mean? Why would he say, "Keep YOURSELVES in the love of God" (building yourselves in holy faith)?

Colossians 2:8 is self explanatory. In regards to Jude 20-21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

Ask a Calvinist, "Can you know that you are TRULY ELECTED, like those in Lk8:15 who will persevere, and not just CRUELLY REJECTED, like those who THOUGHT they were saved but never were in Lk8:13?"

Well, I'm not a 5 point Calvinist.

How do we know if we're a Thirteener (Cruelly Rejected) and not a Fifteener? Step here into the time machine; we'll set the controls for the first part of Luke8:13 -- the machine whirs, there is a flash, and we step out seeing those who are JOYFULLY BELIEVING. We ask them, "Are you saved?" What do they say?

An emotional joyful shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

"YES! We KNOW we are saved, we are JOYFUL!"

Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. So where is the fruit for these shallow ground hearers? Faith without works is dead, right?

And so do those in Luke8:15, "joyfully know they are saved". Only perseverance until DEATH exposes who were "truly elected", and those who were falsely believing but God didn't really want them, they were "cruelly rejected".

Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[anna ~ grace]

So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To "fall from Grace",..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands..."im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a deceiver, by the Devil.
Paul teaches this as "Who has bewitched you"... in Galatians.
The born again get subverted away from their initial ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
Still born again, but faith corrupted...or "in the flesh", as Paul teaches.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, this faith corrupted person can't SEE that you can't be more saved than you are, when you are born again....and remain so.
They can't SEE this, because their mind is blinded to this truth, as that is the devil's ability to cause this, by building a stronghold in their mind that is a subverting of real faith.

Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT : "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
The mind blinded faith corrupted, can't SEE this, as this eternal truth has become veiled to them, as this is how the Law that they are trying to maintain to "stay saved", has blinded them.
Its Satan using a person's self righteousness to cause this mind blinded stronghold.

This Legalist has no FAITH anymore that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become .."im doing this or im not to do that"..and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost"""""" this person cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
"Fallen from Grace".

Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven... and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, to commandment keep.... as your Cross that decides if you go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross," to get you into heaven.. and maintain your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has lost sight of the Truth..., then they are faith subverted because they have a Mental STRONGHOLD that is their spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".
Its to exist in that spiritual blindness as your actual Faith.
And if you are there, you can't SEE it.

THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6

Very, very interesting fact; prior to the advent of the theologies of Wesley and Whitefield, being “born again” was understood as a reference to baptism, and the grace conferred therein. Not to an emotional or sudden or even life-changing conversation experience, but to baptism.

 

[JLB777]

I don't promote a license to sin (which is a typical straw man argument) and I hold to preservation of the saints. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Permanently falling away is not persevering. Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and persevered. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF FALLING AWAY AFTERWARDS.

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere. God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well. If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

In regards to Revelation 3:11, the Bible speaks of multiple crowns. The crown of righteousness, the incorruptible crown, the crown of life, the crown of glory and the crown of rejoicing.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Those who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, bear fruit and persevere, unlike the shallow ground hearer who represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established).

Colossians 2:8 is self explanatory. In regards to Jude 20-21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

Well, I'm not a 5 point Calvinist.

An emotional joyful shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. So where is the fruit for these shallow ground hearers? Faith without works is dead, right?

Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

At some point you are going to have to believe what the scripture says over the false teachers that have seeded your mind with unbiblical ideas.


Listening to and giving heed to false doctrine is one sure way of not remaining in Christ.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16




We all are commanded to obey and follow the doctrine of Christ, and continue to remain (abide) in it, or we will no longer have Christ.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

 

[Ben johnson]

At some point you are going to have to believe what the scripture says over the false teachers that have seeded your mind with unbiblical ideas.

Listening to and giving heed to false doctrine is one sure way of not remaining in Christ.

JLB, while that is true, remember that a Calvinist has no interest in reconsidering his doctrine as long as any of the "sixty-one-plus-verses-in-support", remain in his arms. We have to address absolutely all of the verses, empty his arms, only then MIGHT (no guarantee) he/she reconsider the doctrine.

Begin with 1Cor2:14 -- a natural/unregenerated man cannot believe, spiritual things including the Gospel are foolishness unless and until God zaps his heart with regeneration and then he (irresistibly) believes and is saved. Problem is that there is one subject in verses 9-15 --- "things, them, thoughts-of-God, things, things, things, things". And in verse 12 those very "things", are taught by the RECEIVED Spirit --- and no unbelieving unrepentant sin-entrenched person lambano-receives the Spirit; it is after belief (Acts11:15-17), it is part of salvation, the "things" are the DEEPER spiritual understandings given to believers. This is rock-solid and absolute, 1Cor2:14 can never be used again for "Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation".

Then 2Cor4:3-4, the Calvinistic view ("God has to remove the veil and ONLY THEN can a person turn to God and be saved") --- is ruined by 2Cor3:16, a person turns to God (first!) and THEN the veil over his eyes is removed. Then Acts13:48 -- A.T.Robertson, expert on Koine Greek, affirms "the Gentiles RANGED THEMSELVES on God's side", undeniably pluperfect-past-passive, they positioned THEMSELVES, it does NOT say "God sovereignly ordains them." And Acts13:43 and 13:50 ("many devout/worshiping women ...were being incited to stand against Paul") uses "sebo" (worhiping!) shows a clearly God-loving person can be corrupted; it's the same "sebo" in another Calvinistic Secondary, Acts16:14-15 ("Lydia was a WORHIPER of God AND [through her love of God!] her heart was opened to Jesus") is removed from their doctrine. Lydia embodied Jesus' words in Jn8:42, "if God was your Father then you would love Me", gone is the Calvinistic claim "God sovereignly opened the heart of a degenerate reprobate and THEN she believed in God and Jesus". No, she accepted Jesus BECAUSE she believed and loved God. One by one all the verses thought to promote Reformed Theology, are removed. And then perhaps they'll be open to verses like Acts17:26-31, absolutely everyone is offered salvation, every last person can seek Him and can find Him, He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent, Jesus' resurrection is proof to all men (simply doesn't work to try to repaint it "only-some-of-all-types"). Same in Rom5:17-19, salvation is available to exactly the same number as to whom came condemnation.

It takes infinite patience, love and respect, gently leading them to verses that they cannot refuse; until their arms are empty from the "Calvinistic-proof-texts", and they're forced to realize the truth --- "God is love" (1Jn4:16), and "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5), which God would be doing if He monergistically elected and new-hearted people.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

Very good; can one fall away from faith he's never had (see James5:19-20), or be led back to where he never was?

No.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

Excellent again; now pair that with Heb10:26-29, and don't forget 10:36, identical to 6:11-12, and there is no choice but to admit we are admonished to be diligent to remain in salvation. See Heb4:11, "do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience (and unbelief)".

We all are commanded to obey and follow the doctrine of Christ, and continue to remain (abide) in it, or we will no longer have Christ.

That's exactly right, 2Jn1:7-9 --- there is no subject change, watch what we have learned BECAUSE anyone who does not remain in His teachings (no longer) has God; only he who remains has the Father and the Son. This is the answer to another "Secondary", 1Jn2:19 --- thought to promote "whoever goes out from us was NEVER of us" -- it does not say "never", they are not of us WHEN they go out; they could well have been saved even yesterday.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Please see 1Jn2:26-28, warning against "those who are trying to deceive us" --- we are warned to abide in Him SO THAT we not shrink in shame when He returns, because being found in sin rather than in Him, cannot "still be saved".

Scripture is replete with warnings "do not fall from salvation". See Col2:6-8! What could the SECOND meaning be?

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12JLB

Behind all of this, is the question --- "What is salvation"? So many people hold SUPERMARKET SPIRITUALITY. They go to the store, put Jesus in their shopping cart, maybe the Father and the Spirit, and go check out. They get into their cars, buckle up and start the car and drive down their roads-of-life; Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit all neatly wrapped and packaged and sitting on the passenger seat, always ready to help if ever needed. And that completely misses the point!

Gal2:20: "I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in He who loved me and died for me."

"If anyone be in Christ he is a new creation; the old is passed away, all has become new." 2Cor5:17

If Jesus is not driving the car, then we are in the wrong seat. Yes we still have to "move our feet", but if we commit our ways to Him, He directs our steps (Prov16:1-9, verses 4 and 9 are two of the Secondaries).

And we can miss that "being new creations", requires us to DAILY lay aside the old sinful man, and put on the new spiritual (Eph4:22-24, Col3:1-11 (really the whole chapter)). Not that we work to be saved, but it is as Romans6-8 admonishes, while we are "born/begotten from above" (chapter 6), we do have a war between the old sinful man and the new spiritual one (chapter 7), so we are required to CONSTANTLY walk in the Spirit and use His power to overcome our flesh (chapter 8!).

Abide in Him -- do not fight sin, you will lose; fill your hearts so full of Him that your sins are already defeated, two thousand years ago from His Cross.

That's the whole secret to Christianity.

 

[Ben johnson]

Then Acts13:48 -- A.T.Robertson, expert on Koine Greek, affirms "the Gentiles RANGED THEMSELVES on God's side", undeniably pluperfect-past-passive, they positioned THEMSELVES, it does NOT say "God sovereignly ordains them." And Acts13:43 and 13:50 ("many devout/worshiping women ...were being incited to stand against Paul") uses "sebo" (worhiping!) shows a clearly God-loving person can be corrupted; it's the same "sebo" in another Calvinistic Secondary, Acts16:14-15 ("Lydia was a WORHIPER of God AND [through her love of God!] her heart was opened to Jesus") is removed from their doctrine. Lydia embodied Jesus' words in Jn8:42, "if God was your Father then you would love Me", gone is the Calvinistic claim "God sovereignly opened the heart of a degenerate reprobate and THEN she believed in God and Jesus". No, she accepted Jesus BECAUSE she believed and loved God.

Oops, sorry -- in addressing Acts13:48 (which many Calvinists consider a "Primary", it's not, it's only a Secondary), I mentioned verses 43, 50 ("Sebo-worshiper") with Acts16:14 (again "sebo"), but forgot Acts13:46; the Jews "considered themselves unworthy for eternal life (therefore salvation was opened to the Gentiles)". If the Jews unelected themselves, then we cannot continue to promote "it is GOD who decides election or unelection". No, per Robertson, "there is no absolutum-decretum of salvation" (no absolute decree by God), "Luke does not say why the Gentiles ranged themselves on God's side."

The Jews unelected themselves, Acts13:46.
The Gentiles ranged themselves on God's side (it really intends, "as many as were inclined to eternal life, believed"). Acts13:48.
But many devout God-worshiping and prominent men were being incited to persecute Paul and Barnabas. Acts 13:50.

Acts13:48 is gone from the Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation doctrine, let's here a valid reason why it is not? If not, then it can never again be used for Reformed Theology.

 

[Ben johnson]

let's here a valid reason why it is not? If not, then it can never again be used for Reformed Theology.

"Let's hear" -- CF used to have an "edit" button. :/

 

[Ben johnson]

Very, very interesting fact; prior to the advent of the theologies of Wesley and Whitefield, being “born again” was understood as a reference to baptism, and the grace conferred therein. Not to an emotional or sudden or even life-changing conversation experience, but to baptism.

Hi, Gracia! Exactly what is "The Baptism"? I've argued with Church-of-Christ, "dipped-of-condemned"; but there are many baptisms in Scripture. Matt3:11 has three, water, Spirit (not water), and fire (burning-chaff-with-fire, not water!). "The Baptism" of Christianity (see Eph4:5), is baptism/immersion into DEATH, it has nothing to do with water.

Luke12:50, Jesus had "a baptism to be baptized with, and it distressed Him greatly until it was finished". He was already water-baptized, wasn't waterbaptized twice, and water is not distressing; His DEATH is what He is calling "His Baptism".

Mark10:38-39, Jesus asks us "are you willing to be baptized with My baptism, are you willing to drink My cup?" What is Jesus' cup-and-baptism, which we drink and are baptized-with? (Gethsemane, Matt26:39, Jesus' CUP [poterion, same word] is His DEATH.) His cup-and-baptism, is the Cross; and we are truly united with Him in the likeness of death. Therefore, Rom6:3-5 has nothing to do with water, else we would have to mark out Lk12:50 and Mk10:38. And therefore neither does Gal3:27, Col2:12, and others. Church of Christ (and some others, a few Catholics, and other denominations), will have to give up water as part of salvation. Waterbaptism is a WORK, and we are not saved by works (Greek "ergon", something we do -- Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Titus3:5, it is NOT by ergon-something-we-do!).

Hope I didn't give you tmi!

 

[Danthemailman]

At some point you are going to have to believe what the scripture says over the false teachers that have seeded your mind with unbiblical ideas.

Listening to and giving heed to false doctrine is one sure way of not remaining in Christ.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

We all are commanded to obey and follow the doctrine of Christ, and continue to remain (abide) in it, or we will no longer have Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

I believe what scripture says over what false teachers say, which typically culminates in “type 2 works salvation” and self preservation over God’s preservation.

The exhortation and promise to abide in no way negates that genuine believers will abide in Him. To abide in Christ is to remain in Him, which is not a temporary, superficial attachment, but a permanent connection. Such authentic abiding in Jesus characterizes true conversion.

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Timothy 4:16, see post #252.

Show me the specific words, “no longer have Christ” in scripture. We must not resort to eisegesis when interpreting scripture. In regards to 2 John 9 - Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. (descriptive of unbelievers) He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (descriptive of believers)

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[Danthemailman]

Very, very interesting fact; prior to the advent of the theologies of Wesley and Whitefield, being “born again” was understood as a reference to baptism, and the grace conferred therein. Not to an emotional or sudden or even life-changing conversation experience, but to baptism.

To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Have you considered “living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39? In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the mystical source or the means of becoming born again.

Also. “water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't promote a license to sin (which is a typical straw man argument) and I hold to preservation of the saints.

Dan, I accept you as a saved brother -- and if I get stuck with the likes of you as family forever with Jesus, that will be a complete joy. YOU are "the treasure I can take with me."

"License-to-sin" is OSAS #1, as I said thankfully most do not hold this; it's easy to refute. But others have been heard to say, "Well he was backslidden but SAVED" (for instance the Prodigal Son), and that is Antinomianism.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Please see 1Pet1:4-5 --- the inheritance is imperishable and will not fade away, it is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH" -- which way does that faith flow? RT's say "faith is a unilateral gift FROM God TO His elect/favorites", but Scripture says faith to salvation flows from us to God. You'll have to go to Greek on Rom1:17, the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith. See A.T.Robertson, "from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal". How was Eve deceived to turn away from God?

Why does Paul say we are at the same risk of deception away from God, as Eve experienced? 2Cor11:3!

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

I think (hope!) that eventually you will be persuaded by the preponderance of "don't-fall-away" verses you're being given. Did you see the comment on all of Hebrews?

Permanently falling away is not persevering. Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and persevered.

Whatchyer' missing, is Luke8:18, "take care how you LISTEN" -- that is an imperative to be LIKE "fruitfully-growing-seed-on-good-soil, don't be LIKE seed-on-bad-soil"! In no way can verse 18 fit "God decides it" -- why then would it matter whether or not we take care how we listen?

There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF FALLING AWAY AFTERWARDS.

I'm sorry, if it's the GROUND that determines how the seed grows, then we have to mark out Lk8:18, and we have to charge GOD with making soil "good" or "bad". Only He could have done it! And that is the same offense that made Jesus white-hot-furious in Matt9, if God had any complicity in making people sinful, then His house is divided!

Please see Heb6:7-8 --- ONE field is tilled, it can produce EITHER good fruit (and be blessed) or thorns/thistles and be cursed/burned. Why is that, Dan? Who decides? The answer is in verses 11-12 --- we need diligence to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that we not be sluggish but imitators of those WHO by faith and patience inherit the promises. Can anyone deny what Heb6 is teaching? (In context with verses 4-6, if a truly born-again person, METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit, and that person is then falling away, it is adunatos-impossible/powerless to restore him to repentance BECAUSE of his willful apostasy!

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in persevering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we persevere.

While technically right (it is not in our power), it is our CHOICE. Please see 2Tim1:12-14 --- exactly what "treasure" is it that we "guard by the Spirit's power"?

God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perseverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

Wow -- well said. Please keep going in that direction, as you take to heart more and more Scriptures.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

Again you're right, please understand how He does that; it is through our faith. Please read the entire letter of Galatians -- "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7), "KNOWN by God" (4:9), in no way can be considered "were never truly saved". But then such a person begun in the Spirit, is he now ending in the flesh? (3:3) Running well, who hindered him from obeying the truth? (5:7) "You were KNOWN by God, how is it that you are turning BACK to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again?" (4:9)

Those who are seeking to (again) be justified by law, are severed from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE. Is there any way to stamp any of that with, "NOT REALLY"? Not meaning to offend you...

In regards to Revelation 3:11, the Bible speaks of multiple crowns. The crown of righteousness, the incorruptible crown, the crown of life, the crown of glory and the crown of rejoicing.

In context, "he-who-overcomes". He who does NOT overcome, will still waltz through th' pearly gates? Does that sound credible?

What about Rev2? "You have left your first love; remember from where you have FALLEN, repent and do the deeds you did at first, or I will remove your lampstand from its place."

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Can one depart from faith he never had? What is your understanding of James5:19-20?

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Ahhh, so they are "not REALLY saved in the FIRST place". I look forward to your thoughts on Hebrews; especially verses like 6:4-6 -- can one "photizo-enlightened", who has "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (remember geuomai-taste is also in Heb2:9, Jesus "tasted death" -- that was real!); and they were "made metochos-partakers-PARTNERS of the Spirit" --- metochos appears four times, 3:1 "partners in a heavenly calling", 3:14 "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (in immediate context with "take care BRETHREN lest you ...be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God"); Metochos also is in 12:7, "you WERE partners in His discipline but if you are now without it you are (no longer) sons but illegitimate!"

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

As I just posted, nothing in 1Jn2:19 forbids such a person who "was not of us when they went out", to have been saved even yesterday. 1Jn2:26-28 is yet another warning to "abide in salvation" (so that we not shrink-in-shame-from-sin when He returns). And 2Jn1:7-9 speaks of some who absolutely can go out from us and not abide in the teachings, so as to no longer have Christ and God!

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I'm excited about your thoughts on Lk8:18, "take care how you listen", and Heb6:7-12 where we're admonished to be diligent to produce good fruit and to inherit the promises. What are your thoughts on these? Do you see enough momentum yet to turn you away from "Sovereign-predestined-salvation"?

Those who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, bear fruit and persevere, unlike the shallow ground hearer who represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established).

Shallow or good ground is not the point of Jesus' story; it is PLANTS He is using to illustrate THOSE WHO persevere are LIKE fruitful-plants-on-good-soil, but THOSE WHO fall away are LIKE withering-plants-on-bad-soil.

Ever done a study on "THOSE WHO", in terms of salvation? There are a bunch; and absolutely nothing of "God-who" in terms of personal choice of salvation.

Colossians 2:8 is self explanatory

Yes it is; do not be deceived away from Jesus. (See 2Cor11:3!)

In regards to Jude 20-21, keep yourselves in the love of God is supplemented with three participles of means in the original; they answer the question, "How does one keep himself in the love of God?" By building yourselves up in your most holy faith; by praying in the Holy Spirit; and by looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed.

And what can an ungodly man do to a believer? For that matter, what can a BELIEVER do to another believer, if we're not careful? Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11 warns us to not DESTROY our brother! What do you think Paul meant?

Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

Kept through our faith; thus, "keep ourselves in His love, build ourselves in faith" --- on Eph2:8 commentator A.T.Robertson says, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

Well, I'm not a 5 point Calvinist.

There are a dozen and more variants of Calvinism. But all claim "salvation is limited"; please see Acts17:26-31 and tell how it is limited? In Rom5:17-19, does not justification come to the EXACT SAME "all men", as to whom condemnation came?

An emotional joyful shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

No, that denies verse 18; "take care how you listen". Unnecessary advice if it's already a "done deal". No Calvinist can answer whether he is TRULY elected like the Fifteeners, and not just deluded cruelly rejected like the Thirteeners. Nor can a Calvinist answer Matt9:12-13, Jesus could not have come for the "sick/sinners/unregenerated" who cannot respond, but neither could He come for the "sovereignly regenerated" who are righteous already and do not NEED a physician. Obviously there must be some connection between Jesus coming for people, and their regeneration; but Reformed Theology does not have a connection.

Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. So where is the fruit for these shallow ground hearers? Faith without works is dead, right?

Again, one field can produce EITHER good fruit OR bad; so we need DILIGENCE to inherit the promises. Heb6:7-12.

Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

And no Calvinist can know that for sure, until the last second before dying.

Can he?

 

[Ben johnson]

To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

That is completely --- right. It uses "repetitive narrative", water-Spirit, repeats in the next verse "flesh-spirit" --- water is HYDOR, water-as-the-physical-element.

Unless we are born physically, and ALSO born spirituall, we shall not SEE/ENTER eternity.

(Note another Secondary -- "idein" does not mean "perceive" as Calvinism claims, that would have been "oida"; "idein" means behold/look-at, experience --- it is repeating verse 3, "see" is "enter". Get there.)
Also. “water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)[/QUOTE]Waterbaptism-as-part-of-salvation has three paths, and all paths in Scripture are real and cannot be disregarded.

1. Not every "baptizo" is water -- Matt3:11 has three, water, Spirit-not-water, and fire-not-water.

2. Jesus' BAPTISM, was His death on the Cross -- Luke12:50. We are baptized-into-death (His cup-&-baptism), Mark10:38, Rom6:1-7, Gal3:27, Col2:12.

3. Salvation is not by WORKS (Greek "ergon", something we do); Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Titus3:5.

Waterbaptism is something we do; if required for salvation, then Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient and incomplete. Col2:14, "He has canceled out the certificate of DEBT, with its charges against us and was hostile to us, He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it ALMOST TO THE CROSS (he moved it MOST of the way we have to move it the last bit OURSELVES!"

No, that's not what it says; that certificate (Rm6:29 we really run up a debt of death by our sins!), is nailed to the Cross. Sufficient, complete, done deal. He did it all, we do nothing; the only work we do, we WORK the work of salvation by receiving HIS work, Jn6:29. All of Him, nothing of us; His gift, received by our faith -- our "beginning faith, to ending faith, the righteous are to live BY faith", Rm1:17.

 

[anna ~ grace]

To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Have you considered “living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39? In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the mystical source or the means of becoming born again.

Also. “water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

I would definitely look into the history here, Dan. Prior to Wesley and Whitefield, the expression meant baptism.

 

[Ben johnson]

I would definitely look into the history here, Dan. Prior to Wesley and Whitefield, the expression meant baptism.

Hi, Gracia -- may I butt in? The historical understandings can be wrong. Here today we actually have better resources; like Greek commentary, multiple translations, and Bible searches. In so many cases the Apostolic writing itself is clear, and connections between writings expose promotion of the same concepts. Take James for instance -- when he says in 2:24, "we see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" -- how are we to fit that with the other verses that say salvation is NOT by works? (Hint -- the answer is in verse 22.)

Let's look at John 3 --- under the "dipped-or-condemned" view, one is spiritually born anew at waterbaptism. Therefore, John3:5 would read:

"Unless one is born of the Spirit and (born of) the Spirit, he cannot inter into the kingdom of God."

Do you really believe that was Jesus' intent? The whole dialog was answering Nick, "Can a man enter again into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" Jesus patiently explains there is PHYSICAL birth, and there is also SPIRITUAL birth. Put verses 5 and 6 together:

"Unless one is born of water, and the Spirit..."
"That which is born of flesh, ...and that which is born of the Spirit."

Verse 3:3 is "two births". Verses 6, 7, and 8 are "two births" --- what is the reason that in the MIDDLE verse 5 is NOT "two-births", but only one birth? "Unless one is waterbaptized-born-of-the-Spirit, and born-of-the-Spirit" --- why does that make sense? Isn't it far more credible that all four verses are "two-births", and "water" is simply repeating the next verse "flesh/physical"?

There must be more reason than "early church fathers historically thought it was waterbaptism". What do the earlier fathers, the Apostles, teach?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hi, Gracia -- may I butt in? The historical understandings can be wrong. Here today we actually have better resources; like Greek commentary, multiple translations, and Bible searches. In so many cases the Apostolic writing itself is clear, and connections between writings expose promotion of the same concepts. Take James for instance -- when he says in 2:24, "we see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" -- how are we to fit that with the other verses that say salvation is NOT by works? (Hint -- the answer is in verse 22.)

Let's look at John 3 --- under the "dipped-or-condemned" view, one is spiritually born anew at waterbaptism. Therefore, John3:5 would read:

"Unless one is born of the Spirit and (born of) the Spirit, he cannot inter into the kingdom of God."

Do you really believe that was Jesus' intent? The whole dialog was answering Nick, "Can a man enter again into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" Jesus patiently explains there is PHYSICAL birth, and there is also SPIRITUAL birth. Put verses 5 and 6 together:

"Unless one is born of water, and the Spirit..."
"That which is born of flesh, ...and that which is born of the Spirit."

Verse 3:3 is "two births". Verses 6, 7, and 8 are "two births" --- what is the reason that in the MIDDLE verse 5 is NOT "two-births", but only one birth? "Unless one is waterbaptized-born-of-the-Spirit, and born-of-the-Spirit" --- why does that make sense? Isn't it far more credible that all four verses are "two-births", and "water" is simply repeating the next verse "flesh/physical"?

There must be more reason than "early church fathers historically thought it was waterbaptism". What do the earlier fathers, the Apostles, teach?

I would strongly advise the same, Ben. That you look into and research how Christians have used and understood this term which was handed down to them from the Apostles. And how even the Reformers like Luther and Calvin understood this term. Contrast this against Wesley and Whitefield’s interpretation and you’ll see a great difference.

 

[Ben johnson]

I would strongly advise the same, Ben. That you look into and research how Christians have used and understood this term which was handed down to them from the Apostles.

You just swept away what I said, and declined to answer the verses? That is your prerogative; however, neither you nor I should base our doctrine on what someone else said, when we can see clear dictate in what the Apostles wrote. Are you Catholic? Catholics believe in "subsequent revelations"; but also believe that was is IN the Bible, is authorative.
[/quote]And how even the Reformers like Luther and Calvin understood this term. Contrast this against Wesley and Whitefield’s interpretation and you’ll see a great difference.[/QUOTE]Meaning no offense, I am not interested in what Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitefield, or ECF's said; we have the verses themselves. And the question remains --- "why would verses three, six, seven and eight be about 'two-births' but in the middle verse five is not?" Especially when "waterbaptism" makes it,

"Unless you are born of the Spirit, AND BORN OF THE SPIRIT"

I can't make sense of that; and I don't think anyone else here could either. Does it make sense to you? Or do you not associate "born-of-the-Spirit" with waterbaptism?

That said, it will not cause us to come to blows; if I get stuck with you (and you with me) as brethren before Jesus forever, will we both not delight in each other's company? That is the point, isn't it?