fhansen

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It’s unfortunate that the majority of churches in America teach eternal security and typically some form of faith alone. The reformers had the right intention I think but they just didn’t arrive at sound doctrines.
I agree. There are differences between them of course, with some rejecting the notion of eternal security for one.
 
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Brightfame52

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Then why does Jesus say in John 15:7 “IF you abide in Me” instead of saying since you abide in Me? Using the word “IF” makes this statement conditional implying that the outcome is uncertain. Do you think His audience’s faith was questionable?
If is not conditional but evidential, those really in Christ by election abide in Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If is not conditional but evidential, those really in Christ by election abide in Him.

No that’s incorrect. In order for that statement to be evidential He would’ve had to say “If the Father grants everything you ask then you abide in Me” that’s an example of an evidential statement. The way He said it is conditional.
 
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Brightfame52

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No that’s incorrect. In order for that statement to be evidential He would’ve had to say “If the Father grants everything you ask then you abide in Me” that’s an example of an evidential statement. The way He said it is conditional.
You dont understand the word IF in scripture !
 
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BNR32FAN

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You dont understand the word IF in scripture !

I don’t see any need to add an exclamation point to the end of that statement, I thought this was just a friendly discussion between fellow Christians. It seems pretty clear that the message Jesus was giving to His faithful 11 apostles was to remain in Him. A message that would be pointless if they were incapable of failing to remain in Him. He told them to remain in Him, then told them why they must remain in Him, then explained the consequences if they didn’t remain in Him, then explained what they can expect if they do remain in Him all between verses 4-7.

“Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
 
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JLB777

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Yes that's correct. I believe fallen from grace is to basically apostatize from truth, like when scripture says Luke 8:13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

They never had root in themselves Matt 13:20-21



They were persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians.



JLB
 
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Brightfame52

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They were persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians.



JLB
They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.
 
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Psalm 27

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"trying to be justified by the law".......has to be explained.
the reason is, most who are doing this, don't see it, can't see it.
so, you have to open the understanding, vs just quoting a verse.

did you ever notice that when Jesus was teaching, he would not always use a verse, but if He used one, he didnt just quote it and leave the room.
why?
because most people can't spiritually discern, and the word of God can't be "rightly divided" unless you have this specific spiritual skill.
this is why God sends in a teacher.

(see my Thread).
Believers can read The Bible. Most would probably look up a verse posted and work through it from there. Unless they’re illiterate of course :)
 
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JLB777

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They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.



But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Why were these people persecuted?


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


  • lest they should believe and be saved.


Jesus plainly stated that the very reason those by the wayside weren’t saved was because, they didn’t believe.


These in the next group did in fact believe, indicated by the the plant springing up above the ground and being exposed to the sun.

No plant can grow and spring up above the ground unless it has roots.

These that were planted among the stoney places had no depth of root, not that they didn’t have any root at all, but a lack of fully developed root system, and thus it is unable to reach the moisture that lies deeper in the earth.


  • Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6


Again, no plant can spring up above the ground where it is exposed to the sun, without a root system.


JLB
 
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Brightfame52

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But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Why were these people persecuted?


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


  • lest they should believe and be saved.


Jesus plainly stated that the very reason those by the wayside weren’t saved was because, they didn’t believe.


These in the next group did in fact believe, indicated by the the plant springing up above the ground and being exposed to the sun.

No plant can grow and spring up above the ground unless it has roots.

These that were planted among the stoney places had no depth of root, not that they didn’t have any root at all, but a lack of fully developed root system, and thus it is unable to reach the moisture that lies deeper in the earth.


  • Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6


Again, no plant can spring up above the ground where it is exposed to the sun, without a root system.


JLB
The stony ground heater never bear fruit of salvation. Had no root in himself, no spiritual life.
 
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JLB777

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The stony ground heater never bear fruit of salvation. Had no root in himself, no spiritual life.


It’s very common knowledge that a plant can not sprout up and break ground without a root system.


The plant had no “depth of root” is what is being taught by the Lord.



Again, the main understanding is, these were being persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians; followers of Christ.




JLB
 
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Brightfame52

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It’s very common knowledge that a plant can not sprout up and break ground without a root system.


The plant had no “depth of root” is what is being taught by the Lord.



Again, the main understanding is, these were being persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians; followers of Christ.




JLB
False, they werent believers, never were !
 
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JLB777

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False, they werent believers, never were !

Your mistaken.

Jesus said they believed.

They were being persecuted because they believed.

Jesus said the way we are saved is by believing.

  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believe = Saved



The next group did in fact believe.


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while






Case Closed.




JLB
 
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Brightfame52

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Your mistaken.

Jesus said the believed.

They were being persecuted because they believed.

Jesus said the way we are saved is by believing.

  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believe = Saved



The next group did in fact believe.


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while






Case Closed.




JLB
You are mistaken
 
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Danthemailman

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You are mistaken
Amen and the case is not closed. Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12) but were instead children of the devil.
 
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JLB777

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You are mistaken


You will have to do better than just deny what Jesus plainly said.


Jesus said they believed.

They were being persecuted because they believed.

Jesus said the way we are saved is by believing.

  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
. Luke 8:12-13



Believe = Saved.






JLB
 
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Brightfame52

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As we all see, your “theory” is against the doctrine of Christ.


Those who are “in Christ”, and then are removed from Christ, no longer have eternal life they once had when they were “in Him”.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2



Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


  • he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,



Hopefully after reading the plain and clear words of Christ, you will turn away from promoting “another doctrine”, one in which Christ did not teach.


  • Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;




JLB

No its not, they will remain, its sure !
 
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wandering misfit

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So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....
This someone has never been sved by grace, yesterday or today. I suspect
jthey may be later. It's in the "seed" strewn". Then their is God's people who've been cut offf, to learn a lesson.
 
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Ben johnson

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Brightfame52 said:
They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.
Hi, Brightfame. The story about "the soils", is not about soils at all; it is a story about how a person perseveres, or not. The illustration of a plant growing/withering, is applied after a person perseveres, or falls.

No its not, they will remain, its sure !
I'm afraid not; read the entire letter of James, it is about "don't-fall-from-salvation". The entire letter of 2Peter, the entire letter of Galatians, and worst for OSAS is the entire letter of Hebrews. A truly saved born-again begotten-child-of-God, can become unbegotten.

Behind all this is the question, "What is salvation?" With respect, those who see salvation as unfallible, do not understand what salvation is. So many (perhaps most!) of those who think they are saved, see it as: "Yes I'm saved, because I believe _____".

No! It is not what we believe, not what we know! It is not a doctrine, dogma, list of do's or don'ts -- it is a UNION between two REAL PEOPLE! Rm6:5 we are "sumphutos-united/joined/grown-together with Christ!" Jn17:3 eternal life is KNOWING GOD, and Jesus! "Knowing" -- ginosko, intimate Husband/Wife knowledge! In 1Jn5 "he who HAS the Son has eternal life" -- has, is echo, grasp/possesses! (Now see 2Jn1:7-9 anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings no longer has God!)

Gal2:20 -- is that a "hopeful ideal, some day?" No, it is central and critical! Anyone who has a bumper sticker "God is my co-pilot", you are in the wrong seat!

Salvation is also -- a party! It is a MAJOR party! Matt22 calls it a "wedding feast". Those were the social events of the time (you wanted to get invited to a wedding feast!). Feasting, laughing, dancing, music, celebrating -- salvation is a celebration of love, and everyone is invited. No one has to come (it's not ramming anything down anyone's throat); if you (in general) do not come, we will miss you. But if you come, then we at the party get --- YOU! The simple joy of your company. Friends and family we make (meaning every person reading this), you are the treasure we can take with us. It's that simple.
 
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Ben johnson

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Amen and the case is not closed. Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved."
Hi, Dan. There are three views of OSAS:
1. Antinomianism (Gnosticism), saved SPIRIT but walking-in-sin FLESH. Thankfully few profess this, though many of the other two views say "backslidden-but-saved". No, that would be Antinomianism, ruined by verses like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, all of 1Jn especially chapter 3...

2. Eternal Security -- unlimited atonement, anyone/everyone CAN be saved but once "in" either too changed to fall, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy (zero Scripture for this). And if God ends someone's life so that his spirit lives, what sin is bad enough for a person to die, but "dying in that sin" will be overlooked by God? What sins are okay with God?
:confused:

3. Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation (Calvinism, Reformed Theology, etcetera). Atonement is limited, God creates most people to BE sinful and to perish, He only created a few favorites to be saved at some point (all His decision, we have no say).
How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
Actually, the illustration of "plants-on-soils" (withering or flourishing), is applied AFTER a person perseveres or fall. Please make a list of verses that say "hold fast and save yourselves" -- like 1Tim4:16. See Rev3:11 -- "hold fast to what you have, so that no one will steal your crown" -- exactly what crown do you think they will steal? What do you think of 1Tim4:1?

You see, all views of "OSAS" apply a "catch-22", "if a person is unsaved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place."

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.
No, it actually is an admonishment to "take care HOW YOU LISTEN" (Luke8:18). We are admonished to hold fast and persevere to be LIKE seed growing on good soil, don't be like seed growing on shallow/rocky/thorny (or bird-ravaged) soil.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
It's all cause and effect. What do you think passages like Col2:8 and Jude20-21 mean? Why would he say, "Keep YOURSELVES in the love of God" (building yourselves in holy faith)?

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12) but were instead children of the devil.
Ask a Calvinist, "Can you know that you are TRULY ELECTED, like those in Lk8:15 who will persevere, and not just CRUELLY REJECTED, like those who THOUGHT they were saved but never were in Lk8:13?"

How do we know if we're a Thirteener (Cruelly Rejected) and not a Fifteener? Step here into the time machine; we'll set the controls for the first part of Luke8:13 -- the machine whirs, there is a flash, and we step out seeing those who are JOYFULLY BELIEVING. We ask them, "Are you saved?" What do they say?

"YES! We KNOW we are saved, we are JOYFUL!"

And so do those in Luke8:15, "joyfully know they are saved". Only perseverance until DEATH exposes who were "truly elected", and those who were falsely believing but God didn't really want them, they were "cruelly rejected".

So a Calvinist/RT cannot know for certain if he's truly saved or not, until his very last breath on Earth!
:eek:
 
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