How do you : "Fall from Grace"

[Ben johnson]

the son came to hiss senses and REPENTED.

Came to hiss senses? Maybe he was the mortician who married the snake charmer -- you remember, all the wedding gifts were monogrammed "HISS and HEARSE"???

 

[Ben johnson]

...there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Here is the $64,000 question --- WHY will there be "more rejoicing in Heaven over one repenter, than over 99 who never left"? Under Calvinism:

1. He was never truly saved in the first place (context denies this -- he was "in his father's house"!)

2. His return was predestined, the response should have been "ho-hum", but the angels were playing in a theatrical production (who is in the audience?)

3. What's number three???


No, clearly the Prodigal son's return was NOT guaranteed, that's the ONLY reason "all Heaven rejoices". Jesus plainly narrated, "alive, dead, alive again" -- to insist he "never fell" is to forsake Calvinism and buy into Antinomianism (in the face of prostitution, fornication, drunkenness, he never ceased being his father's son, never represented an UNSAVED person).

To accept that he was FALLEN, and contend he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place, denies Jesus' story -- "A man HAD TWO SONS".

It really seems to me this is yet another "rock-n-a-hard-place"; RT's will have to ignore the whole question...

 

[Ben johnson]

Which act(s) of obedience caused us to be "in Christ?" Which acts of obedience cause us to remain in Him? How much obedience does it take? This could include any number of works. How do you define "keep" His commandments? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have "sufficiently" kept His commandments and will remain in Him? This leads to works salvation.

You are right, it is not "lack-of-sins" that saves us, and sins never condemn us; but sins expose an unrepentant heart that is not saved.

BTW, remind me what you thought of 1Jn2:26-28? Against deceivers we are to abide-in-Him SO THAT we not shrink-in-shame at His coming. Isn't "shrink-in-shame", the same as being "in sin" (rather than in Christ)?

Do believers keep His commandments in order to abide in Him or BECAUSE we abide in Him? *Pay special attention to "by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

'Descriptive' passage of scripture. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Again you're right, we keep His commandments because we abide in Him; yet --- can we "cease to abide"? 1Jn2:26-28 again, "many are trying to deceive you; now --- ABIDE in Him SO THAT you not shrink-in-shame"! What's the second possible meaning?

 

[Danthemailman]

You are right, it is not "lack-of-sins" that saves us, and sins never condemn us; but sins expose an unrepentant heart that is not saved.

You are getting the picture here, but unfortunately, JLB777 is not.

BTW, remind me what you thought of 1Jn2:26-28? Against deceivers we are to abide-in-Him SO THAT we not shrink-in-shame at His coming. Isn't "shrink-in-shame", the same as being "in sin" (rather than in Christ)?

"Confidence" is contrasted with "not be ashamed" in verse 28. Only genuine believers will have confidence. It's a different story for "nominal" Christians who fail to abide. In verse 24 we get a better understanding of the root of the problem - "Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."

Again you're right, we keep His commandments because we abide in Him;

Amen!

yet --- can we "cease to abide"? 1Jn2:26-28 again, "many are trying to deceive you; now --- ABIDE in Him SO THAT you not shrink-in-shame"! What's the second possible meaning?

Confidence (genuine believers) shrink in shame (make believers). I'm not seeing the word "cease" to abide. Either we abide (exposes genuine believers) or else we don't abide (exposes make believers).

*In the very same chapter in verse 19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[JLB777]

Which act(s) of obedience caused us to be "in Christ?"

The act of repentance which is confessing Jesus as Lord.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10



JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

The act of repentance which is confessing Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

JLB

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. *Two sides to the same coin:

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord.

 

[JLB777]

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. *Two sides to the same coin:

To repent in context of the Gospel, means to turn to God.


This is what Jesus sent His apostles to preach.



If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from the Satan as our lord. The way, (the act of obedience) we do this is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord. This is the saving act of faith; the obedience of faith by which we are saved... For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10




JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

To repent in context of the Gospel, means to turn to God.

To repent in the context of the gospel, means to change our mind and believe the gospel. By doing so we turn to God.

This is what Jesus sent His apostles to preach.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from the Satan as our lord. The way, (the act of obedience) we do this is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord. This is the saving act of faith; the obedience of faith by which we are saved... For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

JLB

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. This is what happens when we believe the gospel.

I already explained Romans 10:9,10 to you in post #320. Stop trying to turn "confession with the mouth"(Romans 10:10) into salvation by works.

 

[Ben johnson]

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. *Two sides to the same coin:

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Wait -- which way do faith and repentance flow? Are they things God gives TO (certain) people? Or are they things God demands from us?

When Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God -- was it a command that He thought people could obey? (Matt22:37)

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts17:26-31 says God commands all men everywhere to repent; does He do that publicly, but privately repentance is something from God to His few-favorites? Not meaning offense, just trying to understand what you see.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Wait again -- do you accept the connected passage, Deut30:11-20, that "the-word-of-faith" is in the hearts of BOTH those who confess-believe-&-are-saved, AND it is in the hearts of those who disobey turn away and perish? Is it a choice or not (Deut30:19-20)?

Do you hold to Monergism?

(notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord.

Which comes first --- heart-change, or belief? That may be the whole issue!

See 2Cor4:3-4; Calvinists perceive the veil-over-their-hearts must be removed before and in order FOR belief. But plainly in 2:3:16, one turns to God (belief!) before and in order for the veil to be removed. Isn't that an "oops" for Calvinism?

 

[Danthemailman]

Wait -- which way do faith and repentance flow? Are they things God gives TO (certain) people? Or are they things God demands from us?

When Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God -- was it a command that He thought people could obey? (Matt22:37)

Acts17:26-31 says God commands all men everywhere to repent; does He do that publicly, but privately repentance is something from God to His few-favorites? Not meaning offense, just trying to understand what you see.

Wait again -- do you accept the connected passage, Deut30:11-20, that "the-word-of-faith" is in the hearts of BOTH those who confess-believe-&-are-saved, AND it is in the hearts of those who disobey turn away and perish? Is it a choice or not (Deut30:19-20)?

Do you hold to Monergism?

Which comes first --- heart-change, or belief? That may be the whole issue!

See 2Cor4:3-4; Calvinists perceive the veil-over-their-hearts must be removed before and in order FOR belief. But plainly in 2:3:16, one turns to God (belief!) before and in order for the veil to be removed. Isn't that an "oops" for Calvinism?

Not sure why you are asking me all these questions. I do not hold to Monergism and I am not a 5 point Calvinist. Man makes a choice to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[JLB777]

To repent in the context of the gospel, means to change our mind and believe the gospel. By doing so we turn to God.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. This is what happens when we believe the gospel.

I already explained Romans 10:9,10 to you in post #320. Stop trying to turn "confession with the mouth"(Romans 10:10) into salvation by works.

Again, repent mean to turn to God.


If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.


Words of Christ in red —

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20




JLB

 

[Danthemailman]

Again, repent mean to turn to God.

If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.

Words of Christ in red —

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20

JLB

If we have not changed our mind (repentance) and placed our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 20:21; 26:18) then we have not yet repented unto salvation or turned to God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, repent mean to turn to God.


If we are called to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.


Words of Christ in red —

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20




JLB

If you read carefully, they are being turned from darkness and satan Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To "fall from Grace",..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands..."im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a deceiver, by the Devil.
Paul teaches this as "Who has bewitched you"... in Galatians.
The born again get subverted away from their initial ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
Still born again, but faith corrupted...or "in the flesh", as Paul teaches.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, this faith corrupted person can't SEE that you can't be more saved than you are, when you are born again....and remain so.
They can't SEE this, because their mind is blinded to this truth, as that is the devil's ability to cause this, by building a stronghold in their mind that is a subverting of real faith.

Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT : "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
The mind blinded faith corrupted, can't SEE this, as this eternal truth has become veiled to them, as this is how the Law that they are trying to maintain to "stay saved", has blinded them.
Its Satan using a person's self righteousness to cause this mind blinded stronghold.

This Legalist has no FAITH anymore that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become .."im doing this or im not to do that"..and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost"""""" this person cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
"Fallen from Grace".

Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven... and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, to commandment keep.... as your Cross that decides if you go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross," to get you into heaven.. and maintain your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has lost sight of the Truth..., then they are faith subverted because they have a Mental STRONGHOLD that is their spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".
Its to exist in that spiritual blindness as your actual Faith.
And if you are there, you can't SEE it.

THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6

So you can sin all you want and you’ll be saved? No need to walk in the Spirit? We can just continue to grieve the Spirit making no effort to refrain from sin and we will still be saved?

 

[Brightfame52]

So you can sin all you want and you’ll be saved? No need to walk in the Spirit? We can just continue to grieve the Spirit making no effort to refrain from sin and we will still be saved?

That sounds carnal minded for you to bring that up. A True Believer who is born again has two natures so to speak, and its a spiritual warfare for the rest of their life, they will fight sin, but their fighting sin in their members isnt in order to get saved or stay saved, but its because they are saved so their motive to fight sin isnt mercenary, but out of gratitude and love for Christ !

 

[BNR32FAN]

That sounds carnal minded for you to bring that up. A True Believer who is born again has two natures so to speak, and its a spiritual warfare for the rest of their life, they will fight sin, but their fighting sin in their members isnt in order to get saved or stay saved, but its because they are saved so their motive to fight sin isnt mercenary, but out of gratitude and love for Christ !

Ok so you didn’t exactly answer my question. Do I need to try to refrain from sin or not? Grace doesn’t automatically do anything. Grace enables us to do what is pleasing to God but it doesn’t force anyone to comply. The Holy Spirit is our guide and we must choose either to adhere to His guidance or not. So can we choose to disregard the Holy Spirit and still expect to receive eternal life?

 

[Brightfame52]

Ok so you didn’t exactly answer my question. Do I need to try to refrain from sin or not? Grace doesn’t automatically do anything. Grace enables us to do what is pleasing to God but it doesn’t force anyone to comply. The Holy Spirit is our guide and we must choose either to adhere to His guidance or not. So can we choose to disregard the Holy Spirit and still expect to receive eternal life?

I answered it my way, take it or leave it

 

[BNR32FAN]

I answered it my way, take it or leave it

See, you can’t answer this simple question without either contradicting the scriptures or yourself which is why you keep dodging it because you know full well that we must adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to receive eternal life but if you admit that then your admitting that there are expectations that Christians must meet in order to receive salvation and that would contradict your statements. So either way you’ve already proven my point.

 

[JLB777]

If we have not changed our mind (repentance) and placed our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 20:21; 26:18) then we have not yet repented unto salvation or turned to God.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-0


If we have not believed in our heart and confessed with our mouth, Jesus as Lord, we will not be saved; born again, regenerated.


This is obeying the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is how we obey the Gospel command to repent.


This is called the obedience of faith.



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

 

[JLB777]

If you read carefully, they are being turned from darkness and satan Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

They way Paul tells us how he obeyed the Lord, in turning them away from Satan was calling them to repent; turn to God.



“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:19-20





JLB