How do you : "Fall from Grace"

[BNR32FAN]

No indication Judas was not a follower in Matthew 19. "One of you is a devil" does NOT means Judas was ALWAYS a devil. Jesus had foreknowledge of what Judas would BECOME. Nor does it mean Judas was a devil at the time Jesus chose him to be an Apostle. Judas later fell by transggression therefore never received the promise of Matt 19. Had he not fallen away but remained faithful he would have received a 'throne'

The points I made earlier from Matt 10 CANNOT be true if Judas was a lost unbelieving unforgiven reprobate.

The points you made were addressing the group which very well could’ve been excluding Judas.

 

[Butterball1]

I never said he fell. That’s been my point the whole time that he simply passed it by having never touched it.

The Bible, Acts 1, says Judas fell by transgression.

 

[Butterball1]

The points you made were addressing the group which very well could’ve been excluding Judas.

Everything Jesus said about those 12 in Matt 10 included Judas. No reason to think not other than having a bias.

 

[Butterball1]

John 6 took place around Matthew 5.

Jesus made a promise that included Judas and had Judas remained faithful he would have received a 'throne'. "....the twelve who then heard Jesus speak were not all enthroned, Judas having fallen from his position before the day of enthronement (Acts 1:16-18), and Matthias and Paul were afterwards added to the group (Acts 1:26; Acts 9:17-19). " JW McGarvey

The reason Judas was not enthroned was NOT because he was always a devil, always lost but because became became unfaith falling away.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible, Acts 1, says Judas fell by transgression.

Ive already proven that the Greek word used does not only mean to fall but also to pass by without contact.

 

[Brightfame52]

How can one fall from a tree if he was never in the tree (never touched the tree)?

Can't fall from salvation if one was never saved.

Fall from salvation ? What verse is that ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Fall from salvation ? What verse is that ?

Galatians 5:4, John 15:2, John 15:6, Romans 11:17-26, and Luke 13:6-9 are just a few.

 

[Brightfame52]

Galatians 5:4, John 15:2, John 15:6, Romans 11:17-26, and Luke 13:6-9 are just a few.

None of those say a word about falling from salvation !

 

[BNR32FAN]

None of those say a word about falling from salvation !

So a person can be in Christ without being saved?

 

[Brightfame52]

So a person can be in Christ without being saved?

Only by false profession

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only by false profession

So when Jesus says that someone is “in Me” what He really means is they are not actually in Him? Your contradicting what Jesus actually said.

 

[Butterball1]

Fall from salvation ? What verse is that ?

2 Peter 1:9-10
James 5:12
Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 6:6
1 Timothy 3:6
1 Corinthians 10:12

Those who fall from salvation become apostates

Apostate - Greek apostasia:

apo - away from
stasia - standing

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

So an apostate is one who has fallen, a leaving, from a previous standing....that is, fallen from a saved standing to a lost standing. A person never saved cannot fall for he is already fallen, one does not leave a fallen state to a fallen state.

The word fall carries the idea one's status has changed. For one to fall from a house to the ground he must first be upon the house. Having fallen from the house then his standing has changed to now being on the gound from a previous standing of being upon the house. Again, no such thing as falling from a lost state to a lost state...one always lost remains in the SAME state, his state has not changed from a previous standing. IF OSAS were true then there could be no such thing as an apostate, no such thing as a fallen person.

 

[Butterball1]

Ive already proven that the Greek word used does not only mean to fall but also to pass by without contact.

Does not change anything. Those always fallen cannot fall for they are already fallen. To fall by trangression logically implies Judas must have been is a saved state only to fall from it by transgression. One does not fall from a lost state to a lost state by transgression.

(see my post #212 about apostates and falling)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does not change anything. Those always fallen cannot fall for they are already fallen. To fall by trangression logically implies Judas must have been is a saved state only to fall from it by transgression. One does not fall from a lost state to a lost state by transgression.

(see my post #212 about apostates and falling)

I don’t know how many times we have to go thru this, the word παραβαίνω translated in the KJV to fell does not have to be translated as fell. It can also mean to pass by or reject.

1. to go by the side of
2. to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3. to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4. so to go past as to turn aside from
a. to depart, leave, be turned from
5. one who abandons his trust

Acts 1:25 Lexicon: to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Your getting hung up on a bad translation of one word.

 

[Butterball1]

I don’t know how many times we have to go thru this, the word παραβαίνω translated in the KJV to fell does not have to be translated as fell. It can also mean to pass by or reject.

1. to go by the side of
2. to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3. to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4. so to go past as to turn aside from
a. to depart, leave, be turned from
5. one who abandons his trust

Acts 1:25 Lexicon: to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."

Your getting hung up on a bad translation of one word.

Again, I can fall from the roof of a house without "touching a thing" on the way down. But once I am on the ground my standing has changed from being on the roof to being on the ground. I cannot fall from the roof if I was never on the roof no more than Judas could fall by transgression had he always been fallen and always in transgression.

So "touching" or "passing" has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is about one's standing changing....apostasia - move awaying from one's previous standing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, I can fall from the roof of a house without "touching a thing" on the way down. But once I am on the ground my standing has changed from being on the roof to being on the ground. I cannot fall from the roof if I was never on the roof no more than Judas could fall by transgression had he always been fallen and always in transgression.

So "touching" or "passing" has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is about one's standing changing....apostasia - move awaying from one's previous standing.

you keep on injecting the word fall. It doesn’t say to fall or pass by by falling it says to pass by. If I pass up an offer it does mean I ever excepted the offer at any time.

 

[Brightfame52]

So when Jesus says that someone is “in Me” what He really means is they are not actually in Him? Your contradicting what Jesus actually said.

Yes in that case they werent really in Christ. It was a mere physical identification with the people of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes in that case they werent really in Christ. It was a mere physical identification with the people of God.

Then why does Jesus say in John 15:7 “IF you abide in Me” instead of saying since you abide in Me? Using the word “IF” makes this statement conditional implying that the outcome is uncertain. Do you think His audience’s faith was questionable?

 

[fhansen]

(1) If "we" (the saved "wheat" in the church) are REALLY
"judgedon our love"... that is just another WORKS GOSPEL.
Demonstrating it's not Biblical and just a synergistic heresy.


(2) And if "we" (are unsaved "tares" in the church or any of the
lost souls OUTSIDE the church) are REALLY "judged on our love"
... that is just another synergistic WORKS GOSPEL, or heresy.


Besides that, I will remind you that many Jews and Moslems and
Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists and Agnostics and Humanists
show TREMENDOUS "love" to their fellow man.... however none
of them can ever hope for salvation - since they have no Savior.


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So, when we TEST your "theory" we must preach that all those who
are NOT CHRISTIAN can still have eternal life with Christ as long
as they show TREMENDOUS LOVE to their fellow man. This
notion is nothing but heresy... there is ONE WAY to God
and those rejecting Jesus and His Gospel are lost.

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Again you demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between the True Gospel
of Sovereign Grace and the false "gospel" (or heresy) of synergism.
And you present a pretty good example of WHY only monergism
can seriously be considered to be the True Gospel of the Bible.


Jim

If you don't understand this simple truth of God's workings with man, of His patient dealings with us and of His desire to produce something of great value and worth in man, by sovereignly not overriding man's will, by not predetermining our choices but instead by helping man to choose rightly as man comes to recognize the supreme goodness of God and of the perfection of His wisdom and will such that we'll bow to Him so that He may do a work in us, of transforming us into His image, the image of love that we'll ultimately be judged on, then you don't understand God's purposes in all this very well at all.

It's all about grace and man's will in that sense, weak and faulty as that will is, at least until he begins to let God in. Again, man cannot turn himself towards God; God must reach down to us, but we can still say no. That's the critical difference-and that's exactly why we need the Christian faith and the Scripture that records it. So that we may hear, and know, and respond. I'm not saying that you're wrong in you're "feelings" of being indwelt by the Spirit, only that you haven't learned much from Him to date. You've been listening more to yourself and possibly the false gospels of others.

“If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me", Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 16:24. You should read Augustine BTW. He's by no means perfect in his theology but he's quite solid and edifying overall-and you'd benefit either way.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you don't understand this simple truth of God's workings with man, of His patient dealings with us and of His desire to produce something of great value and worth in man, by sovereignly not overriding man's will, by not predetermining our choices but instead by helping man to choose rightly as man comes to recognize the supreme goodness of God and of the perfection of His wisdom and will such that we'll bow to Him so that He may do a work in us, of transforming us into His image, the image of love that we'll ultimately be judged on, then you don't understand God's purposes in all this very well at all.

It's all about grace and man's will in that sense, weak and faulty as that will is, at least until he begins to let God in. Again, man cannot turn himself towards God; God must reach down to us, but we can still say no. That's the critical difference-and that's exactly why we need the Christian faith and the Scripture that records it. So that we may hear, and know, and respond. I'm not saying that you're wrong in you're "feelings" of being indwelt by the Spirit, only that you haven't learned much from Him to date. You've been listening more to yourself and possibly the false gospels of others.

“If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me", Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 16:24

It’s unfortunate that the majority of churches in America teach eternal security and typically some form of faith alone. The reformers had the right intention I think but they just didn’t arrive at sound doctrines.