how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I skipped over a few replies, so I am not sure this was adequately covered.
It is actually something important that children need to learn growing up. It is called consequences. A righteous and just God would have the authority to judge those who did wrong. Hell is the consequence and judgment of sin. To not pass judgment for sin would be to infer that God was not just. Doing wrong=punishment. Since sin is in our human nature at birth, we are predisposed to this judgment and need only believe to be freed from sin, which is, to say the least, a relief. I am glad God is just and righteous. Even more so am I glad that he loves us enough to have made a way out of sin for us. Sort of the same notion as if your kids got arrested and you went and bailed them out.

we are born "with the tendency to sin", but not "sinners".

 

[Linktogunner]

The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

Thank God for His grace, amen?

Amen.

 

[HarleyR]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

I would suggest that you have a poor understanding of our loving God and an elevated sense of man. While God loves each and every one of us, we by nature do not love Him. If God tells us not to put peas up our noses because it will harm us, that is EXACTLY what we'll do. If God tells us not to lie, we lie. If God tells us not to steal, we'll steal. All the commandments God has given us are good. We just simply do not wish to follow them-unless God changes our hearts.

So how would I tell someone they will spend eternity in hell place their by a loving God? I would tell them that is EXACTLY where they really want to be-out of and away from the presence of God. Just like the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, when he sees Lazarus enjoying the banquet feast of Abraham he never asks if he could join them. He simply ask if Lazarus would give him a drop of water to cool his tongue. He doesn't want to be part of the feast. He only wants to satisfy his own cravings. This is the love of God-everyone will be placed exactly where they want to be. There are many who would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. And don't be deceived. Even kindly Aunt Myrtle is just as corrupt and vile as anyone else.

And, no, hell is not an "intellectual construct" just as heaven is not an intellectual construct. It is a real place that has been clearly defined. That is, if you believe the scriptures. But then, if you don't believe the scriptures what is the point of discussing what hell is?

 

[Urban_Legend]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

I think that when you put it so blunt (those who don't love him will burn forever in an eternal torture). If you told me that, I would ask you to define the meaning of your word Love.

Really, it's not as black and white as that. The Love God requires from us we cannot give him by ourselves. The Love he requires from us is not humanly Love, its not carnal or a fear of punishment...It's more along the lines of devotion, sacrifice and a true willingness to get to know him and have a relationship with him which cannot be done without the Holy spirit.

So for me it would be more like (those who don't allow God [Holy spirit] to show or teach them to love God would burn in eternal torture)...

Children are much better students than adults and believe me if you as a child camping were explained in a deeper sense what that definition of Love was(example: by loving others we are also loving God) you would understand it and believe it better than you could ever as an adult.

God Bless You.

 

[Der Alte]

... Some of the theory of suffering in hell stems from fictional works such as Dante's "Inferno," a fictional account of hell.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (World English Bible - Public Domain).
Peter did not mention eternal fire, only an end to this world. I believe God intends to save the good, but may not be able to save those who made others miserable in this life. God is of life, light, healing and knowledge. God does not like torture.

As for Peter not mentioning eternal fire etc. that is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
.....The false Dante argument is often repeated.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

we are born "with the tendency to sin", but not "sinners".

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are all sinners.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Psalms 51:5 .
Recall the Pharisee and the publican. Luke 18:9-14 . One was just in his own eyes by his own virtue and the other seeing his own state of sin, asked God to have mercy. Jesus here says that the one asking for mercy is the just one.
Christ is found by checking the pride at the door.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Thanks Mark, I read your blog on this and found it to be quite interesting.

I like your user name, "TheBibleIsTruth". We both view God as our ultimate authority and we both recognize that God has chosen to reveal His truth and His will in the Bible, which is the Word of God. This foundational truth is more important than our disagreement about the nature of final punishment. Still, the nature of final punishment is an important topic, and I'm glad to interact some more with you about it.

In this comment I will focus on the replying to the following parts of your comment (which is well written):

However, you have failed in one very important aspect, which is to show from any of the lexical uses of the words, especially in the Greek New Testament, that are used to show "annihilation" is ever meant.

I think I can show this, as I hope you'll see.

When, for example Jesus speaks of God "destroying" both "body and soul" in hell (Matthew 10:28), the Greek word that He uses, is not "αφανισμός", which is the word denoting "annihilation", but "ἀπόλλυμι", which is never used in this sense.

In any language there are multiple ways to express the same idea. I can see how aphanismos could be used to refer to annihilation, but it is certainly not the only way to express what we mean by "annihilation". Below I hope to show that apollumi actually does mean what we mean by "annihilation".

"ἀπόλλυμι", is also translated "perish" in places like John 3:16, where the meaning is never "annihilation".

You may be misunderstanding what annihilationists (at least the ones I interact with, which are well represented by the Rethinking Hell ministry) mean by "annihilation".

We are not using "annihilation" in the sense a nuclear physicist would use the word, to refer to the complete non existence of matter. Instead, what we mean is this: the unrighteous will be destroyed in body and soul in such a way that there is no longer a conscious being remaining who is able to think or feel anything. This meaning corresponds to the normal, everyday meaning of "dead". If a child sees a dead animal on the side of the road, they know it can no longer feel or think anything. In terms of what remains, it seems that something like ashes or dust may remain when the process is done.

Once this is understood, we can see that the English word "perish" is an excellent fit for "annihilation". If I had a brother who was captured in Syria by ISIS and we believed he was alive and likely being tortured, I would never say "My brother has perished". If I had a brother who was blown up by an IED, I would say "My brother has perished" even if there were remains which were returned to the family. Also notice, that in this regard we speak the same way the Bible speaks(see James 2:26). The part which has died is the body, but we often simply say the person has died. But in Hell, the same fate awaits both the soul and body (see Matthew 10:28).

The meaning of to "wipe out completely", is never found in the Greek words used in the New Testament, when describing the "destruction" of the wicked in hell.

Can you provide any lexical evidence which shows that "annihilation" is meant in any passage of Scripture, when speaking of the final state of the lost, in the "second death"?

Yes! I think I can provide that evidence (see below).

Leaving "theology" aside, we must base our understanding of what the Bible teaches, on solid evidence, and not personal bias. I would have thought that any study on a serious subject as "eternal punishment", would require a thorough investigation into the original language used, as this is more reliable than English, or any other translating language.

I think you may have only read part 1 of my series on the 2nd death (which is quite long, and even reading all of part 1 took some time, so thank you for reading it). In part 6 (out of 7 parts), I do provide a word study of apollumi. I will provide a slightly modified version of that section here:

One Important Word Study

In a great symphony each note played by each instrument contributes to the whole. In the same way, each word of each verse in the Bible harmoniously reveals God’s truth to us.

As I have studied the topic of the eternal fate of the unsaved more and more, I have seen more and more details which all support the truth that unbelievers will eventually utterly perish and be no more. Studies of some of the key words related to this topic have strengthened my confidence in this view.

For me, the most important word study has been the study of the Greek words apollumi, a verb, and apoleia, a noun based on the same root. All words have a range of meaning depending on their context. If you wanted to choose a single English verb and noun to translate apollumi and apoleia, good choices would probably be “destroy” and “destruction”.

Apollumi/apoleia is probably the word used most often in the New Testament to describe the fate of the unrighteous. In Matthew 10:28 it is translated “destroy” (also see Philippians 1:28, Hebrews 10:39, and James 4:12), in Matthew 21:41 it is translated “put . . . to . . . death”, in John 3:16 and other verses it is translated “perish” (see Luke 13:3, 5; Romans 2:12, and 2 Peter 3:9), and in Philippians 3:19 it is translated “destruction” (see also Matthew 7:13, Romans 9:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 17:11). More examples could be given.

As one who used to believe in eternal conscious torment, and even teach it, I know the usual explanation for verses like Matthew 10:28 and John 3:16. It is pointed out that apollumi can also mean “ruin” (see Matthew 9:17) or “lost” (Luke 15:9). That’s true. But this fact fails to recognize that when speaking about people, apollumi/apoleia very consistently refers to death, usually a violent death. When speaking about inanimate objects like a wineskin or coins, it can indeed simply mean “ruined” or “lost”, but not when speaking about what happens to people, and especially not when speaking about what one person does to another person.

There are in fact quite a few verses where apollumi is not referring to the eternal fate of people but simply to people killing, or wanting to kill, other people in this world. Here are some examples:

Matthew 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill (apollumi) him."

Matthew 27:20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed (apollumi).

Acts 5:37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed (apollumi), and all his followers were scattered.

If you want to see more examples, look at: Matthew 12:14, Matthew 21:41, Matthew 22:7, and Luke 13:33.

While all this information is useful, I found (I was not the first to find this!) even more amazing information about apollumi/apoleia. You might wonder if the Greeks had a word which was used to refer to the whole person, soul and body, being completely extinguished after death? This is what we mean by “annihilationism”. It turns out they did!

The Greeks had a Word for It!
(Warning: This part is powerful, but a bit technical.)

The Greek philosopher Plato was widely read throughout the Greek speaking world for centuries after he died. In one of his works, Phaedo, Plato discussed rather extensively his thoughts and opinions about what happens to human souls after death. One of the options he discussed (but did not agree with) was the possibility that a person’s soul would entirely cease to exist, which is what we mean by annihilationism. When he described this possibility he used the word apollumi:

[from Phaedo, 70a]. They fear that when the soul leaves the body it no longer exists anywhere, and that on the day when the man dies it is destroyed (apollumi) and perishes, and when it leaves the body and departs from it, straightway it flies away and is no longer anywhere, scattering like a breath or smoke.​

This is just one example. If you want to research this, you may also find apollumi used to mean what we mean by “annihilation” in Phaedo, 80d, 86d, 91d, 95d, and 106b.

In Plato’s Republic he also uses apollumi to refer to annihilation of the human soul:

“Have you never perceived,” said I, “that our soul is immortal and never perishes (apollumi)?” (Republic, 10.608d)

Words do change meaning over time, and Plato wrote a long time before the NT. So we need to look at the NT itself to see if apollumi is still used the same way. Far more (way more, incredibly more) important than seeing that Plato used apollumi to mean what I am saying “second death” means, there is a clear example of the Apostle Paul using apollumi in the same way.

Paul discussed a terrible hypothetical situation where Jesus did not rise from the dead (he did this to show how important the resurrection is to our faith). In this terrible hypothetical situation Paul said that there would be no resurrection for anyone if Jesus did not rise. In this terrible hypothetical situation, Paul explained that even Christians would have apollumi-ed:

ESV 1 Corinthians 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished (apollumi).

Further, Paul cannot have meant merely that the bodies of Christians were destroyed while their souls suffered for their sin, because Paul goes on to say:

ESV 1 Corinthians 15:32b If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

If there is any type of just judgment and punishment after death, it would not make sense to live only for pleasure in this world. So when Paul says that if Christ did not rise from the dead then dead Christians have perished (apollumi) he is saying exactly what I have been claiming “second death” means, namely the complete destruction of body and soul. The word Paul uses to describe this “annihilation” is the very same word which the New Testament authors, including Paul, most frequently used to describe the final fate of the unrighteous!

*******end of slightly modified excerpt from part 6************

Besides the word apollumi, the Bible uses other language which is much more consistent with what I mean by annihilation than it is with eternal torment:

"death" (Romans 6:23)
being burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6)
being burned up (Matthew 13:30, the Greek word katakaio is consistently used of burning something completely up)
And in Psalm 37: David says the wicked will wither and die away like grass (Psalm 37:2), be destroyed (Psalm 37:9), “be no more” (Psalm 37:10) so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish (Psalm 37:20), will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire (Psalm 37:20), will be “completely destroyed” (Psalm 37:28), will pass away and be no more (Psalm 37:36), and will have no future (Psalm 37:38). That sure sounds like annihilation!

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Love God requires from us we cannot give him by ourselves. The Love he requires from us is not humanly Love, its not carnal or a fear of punishment...It's more along the lines of devotion, sacrifice and a true willingness to get to know him and have a relationship with him which cannot be done without the Holy spirit.

This is black and white
Jesus said
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You forgot obedience in your list above. That is what Eve did disobayed.

 

[AACJ]

First of all.....I am not asserting that there's no need for concern over lawlessness.

I think you're misunderstanding my question.

You'd claimed earlier that (something like) it's the loving thing to do for us to warn others of their "impending doom of a yawing pit" that's awaiting them.....but I don't have any recollection of any of the disciples (or even Jesus) doing that (giving warnings like a person on a street corner holding a sign that says something like, "Repent or Burn Forever").

Can you provide me with even one example....of an actual event or occurrence where this happened? In that list of verses....the only thing close was the 2nd Thess passage, but that was speaking to the church (believers). I mean an actual account/example of any of the disciples or Jesus saying something like this to a crowd or an individual:

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear,and let him be your dread.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Ok, so my understanding of Luke 12:4-5 and Mat 10;28 is as follows.

The underlying Greek for “them which kill” can be used in the sense of mortal death (Mat_14:5) or spiritual death (Rom_7:11). The former is what is obviously meant in Luke 12:4.

The underlying Greek for “body” (used in both Matt. and Luke) refers to material substance (the physical body) not to man’s spiritual component. There is an obvious contrast here between what man can do to the body and what God can do to the body. Whatever it is here that the Christ encourages His listeners to fear at the hand of God is far worse than what anyone could possibly suffer at the hands of man. This occurs after mortal death. So for example, a christian facing torture for the purpose of trying to force a denial of Christ can expect something far worse than the torture at the hands of men if he/she forsakes their Maker.

So being cast into Hell is even worse than one’s body being tortured at the hands of man.

For refusing to abstain from Christian ministry, the late great Richard Wurmbrand suffered horribly and was extensively tortured over a period of a total of 14 years while incarcerated by the Communist Romanian government. What Christ warns us of in Matt. 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 is obviously far worse. That cannot possibly be non-existence.

Annihilationism is not an option since there is no accountability or punishment in non-existence.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

With no punishment after mortal death, then justice did no find the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). He literally had nothing to fear.

 

[Urban_Legend]

This is black and white
Jesus said
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You forgot obedience in your list above. That is what Eve did disobayed.

Don't focus on what I forgot, rather what I remembered...

My post wasn't suppose to be a doctrine or a manuscript...I was just trying to direct a way of thinking.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Don't consider the doctrines of annihilationism correct then, if you think they(or if they do) say this:

Annihilationism is not an option since there is no accountability or punishment in non-existence.

With no punishment after mortal death, then justice did no find the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). He literally had nothing to fear.

In the story Yeshua HaMashiach told concerning the so-called 'rich man', the rich man was already suffering and he knew why, and he knew why his sons would likely be suffering also,
just as people TODAY can know why most people on earth will be suffering.
(righteous and just punishment according to TORAH, in line perfectly with YHWH'S PLAN and PURPOSE in YESHUA for SALVATION for those who believe).

Nothing in Scripture indicates that in 1.2 trillion years anyone will be suffering. Until then (whenever YHWH has appointed), "SUFFER AWAY!" (a lot) (the world condemned)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you told me that, I would ask you to define the meaning of your word Love.

What YHWH requires is willingness, and choosing (by the will) to obey Him (love Him is in the will, NOT emotional, NOT feelings).

 

[AACJ]

Don't consider the doctrines of annihilationism correct then, if you think they(or if they do) say this:



In the story Yeshua HaMashiach told concerning the so-called 'rich man', the rich man was already suffering and he knew why, and he knew why his sons would likely be suffering also,
just as people TODAY can know why most people on earth will be suffering.
(righteous and just punishment according to TORAH, in line perfectly with YHWH'S PLAN and PURPOSE in YESHUA for SALVATION for those who believe).

Nothing in Scripture indicates that in 1.2 trillion years anyone will be suffering. Until then (whenever YHWH has appointed), "SUFFER AWAY!" (a lot) (the world condemned)

you're post literally does nothing to refute my claims.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

you're post literally does nothing to refute my claims.

It doesn't have to.

 

[Almost there]

The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

Thank God for His grace, amen?

I thought He did it so we could spend eternity with him, rather than die, as he warned Adam would happen if he ate of the fruit.

But that's just me.

 

[Almost there]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

I've found that the people I know that actually believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) fall into three camps:

1. They try not to think about it too much and actually hope they are wrong. C. S. Lewis falls into this camp.
2. They are constantly depressed about their loved ones that are not saved.
3. They hate the people that are not saved and are glad it is happening to them. I see that as sort of the "Wesbouro Baptist Church" type of perspective.

The good news is that most people that believe in ECT have not really studied it (I was one of those and fell into the first group). And once people study it (as I finally did), most of them come to some other belief, typically CI (conditional immortality).

 

[brinny]

I thought He did it so we could spend eternity with him, rather than die, as he warned Adam would happen if he ate of the fruit.

But that's just me.

?

Jesus the Christ IS the only Way to spend eternity with God, isn't it?

Jesus provided that Way when He paid the penalty of sin that would've fallen on us, when He died on the cross FOR us, didn't He?

 

[Almost there]

Here is some of what Jesus had to say about hell.

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

If I were thrown into a fiery furnace, I'd definitely be weeping, because I would be terribly sad that I blew it. And if I was mad at God for throwing me in, I'd be gnashing my teeth in anger.

Until the fire killed and consumed me, of course...

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate.

The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context. In Isaiah 66:24 that context is the consumption of corpses. So their worm, it is promised, will not die before fully consuming the bodies. And like other tenacious scavengers that are difficult to prevent from fully consuming their corpses (Deuteronomy 28:26; Jeremiah 7:33), the irresistible and complete consumption of the dead by the worms makes their shame permanent and everlasting.

And a fire which “is not quenched” is not a fire that will never go out. The primary meaning of quench is “to extinguish.” The biblical picture here is of a fire that cannot be quenched, a fire which cannot be prevented from fully consuming its fuel (2 Kings 22:17; Isaiah 34:10; Jeremiah 7:20; 17:27; Ezekiel 20:47).

Matthew 22:13 “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Same as below

Matthew 8:12 “while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Passages like this one that speak of outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth do not specify any duration. It is strange, then, that critics should often point to these passages as if they were a challenge to the final annihilation of the unsaved. They are not.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth does not communicate suffering and pain in the Bible. In fact, weeping communicates grief and sorrow and teeth-gnashing communicates anger and hatred. So these passages are not proof of any extended period of suffering and torment. But even if they were, conditionalists do not typically believe that God will snap his fingers and the risen wicked will instantaneously and painlessly disappear. Rather, we believe the execution of the unsaved will be a painful one, as our Savior's was. Either way this language of weeping and gnashing of teeth does not challenge an annihilationist view but is rather consistent with it.

Moreover, this language of darkness, grief, and anger appears in the parable of the marriage feast (Matthew 22:1-14), where guests are bound hand and foot and thrown out of the wedding hall into the darkness of night. In such a scene, particularly in first century Israel, someone so bound and thrown outside at night would die if not freed at some point, from thirst or exposure or killed by beasts or robbers. Again, the imagery favors the annihilation of the unsaved, not their eternal torment.

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Traditionalists argue that since eternal (αἰώνιος, aionios) is used in both clauses, the duration of the punishment for the damned must endure as long as the duration of the life for the redeemed. And most conditionalists do not disagree! If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), such that the damned will die and never live again, then the duration of the punishment surely is every bit as eternal. It is not the punishing itself that is eternal, a process that never ends. It is the punishment that is eternal, the final death sentence which is permanent (i.e., forever).

When eternal describes a so-called “noun of action” in the New Testament—that is, the noun corresponding to a verb (punishment versus punish)—it frequently is the verb’s outcome, not its process, whose duration is everlasting. Eternal judgment refers to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of judging (Hebrews 6:2). Eternal salvation and eternal redemption refer to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of saving and redeeming (Hebrews 5:9, 9:12). Eternal sin refers to a sin the consequences of which are eternal (Mark 3:29, unless its original reading is “eternal judgment,” in which case it is once again the everlasting outcome of a finite process of judging). Likewise eternal punishment may refer to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of punishing.

Of course, some conditionalists argue that αἰώνιος is not properly translated "eternal" in the first place. Rather, they make a case for understanding it as having a qualitative meaning, rather than a quantitative one. In their view, αἰώνιος life does not inherently communicate “everlasting” life in the sense of forever ongoing—although they believe that that teaching can be found elsewhere—but rather a “kind” of life, one corresponding to the age to come. In other words, eternal might refer to the quality of the age in which the life is lived, that is “in the age of, and with the qualities of, eternity”—not merely a temporal quantity. This explanation would also track with the idea that the eternal fire of Jude did not continue to burn in Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, but was of an eternal nature and origin. (See section on Matthew 25:41.) Likewise αἰώνιος punishment may refer to the punishment corresponding to the age to come, not one of unending duration.

Luke 16:23 “being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

Traditionalists argue that since eternal (αἰώνιος, aionios) is used in both clauses, the duration of the punishment for the damned must endure as long as the duration of the life for the redeemed. And most conditionalists do not disagree! If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), such that the damned will die and never live again, then the duration of the punishment surely is every bit as eternal. It is not the punishing itself that is eternal, a process that never ends. It is the punishment that is eternal, the final death sentence which is permanent (i.e., forever).

When eternal describes a so-called “noun of action” in the New Testament—that is, the noun corresponding to a verb (punishment versus punish)—it frequently is the verb’s outcome, not its process, whose duration is everlasting. Eternal judgment refers to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of judging (Hebrews 6:2). Eternal salvation and eternal redemption refer to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of saving and redeeming (Hebrews 5:9, 9:12). Eternal sin refers to a sin the consequences of which are eternal (Mark 3:29, unless its original reading is “eternal judgment,” in which case it is once again the everlasting outcome of a finite process of judging). Likewise eternal punishment may refer to the everlasting outcome of a finite process of punishing.

Of course, some conditionalists argue that αἰώνιος is not properly translated "eternal" in the first place. Rather, they make a case for understanding it as having a qualitative meaning, rather than a quantitative one. In their view, αἰώνιος life does not inherently communicate “everlasting” life in the sense of forever ongoing—although they believe that that teaching can be found elsewhere—but rather a “kind” of life, one corresponding to the age to come. In other words, eternal might refer to the quality of the age in which the life is lived, that is “in the age of, and with the qualities of, eternity”—not merely a temporal quantity. This explanation would also track with the idea that the eternal fire of Jude did not continue to burn in Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, but was of an eternal nature and origin. (See section on Matthew 25:41.) Likewise αἰώνιος punishment may refer to the punishment corresponding to the age to come, not one of unending duration.

Luke 12:5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

This verse describes that God can destroy both the body AND soul. It is made even more clear in the Matthew version of this verse.

Note: Much of what I included above is from here:
Explore

Click on the scriptures tab, and then under that, the tab for whatever "hell belief" for which you want to peruse the supporting scriptures, usually with commentary.

 

[Almost there]

?

Jesus the Christ IS the only Way to spend eternity with God, isn't it?

Jesus provided that Way when He paid the penalty of sin that would've fallen on us, when He died on the cross FOR us, didn't He?

Exactly!

 

[brinny]

Exactly!

Not following you.

What was it about my first post you quoted that you perhaps did not understand?