how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Almost there]

Not following you.

What was it about my first post you quoted that you perhaps did not understand?

You said this:

The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

It was that last sentence. For me, He didn't die to keep us from a place. He died to destroy death, and give us eternal life - those of us who choose his grace.

I don't see the afterlife as "heaven vs hell". I don't see it as geography. Rather, I see it as condition: Alive vs dead.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So Joseph Prince says that a hell-bound sinner, who has committed the worst kinds of sins, like a serial murderer, or rapist, a child molester, etc, etc, can become a true follower of Jesus Christ, by simply "changing their mind" about God, or something else, and have no "sorrow" (change of mind and heart) for their sinful lives? If this be true, then he is seriously deluded by the father of lies, the devil! Are you saying that a sinner can become a Christian without any "sorrow" for their sinful lives? Do you think that God sent the Prophet Jonah, to one of the most wicked, corrupt and sinful people at that time, the Ninevites, simply to tell them to "change their mind" about him? Listen to the decree that was issued by the king, after the people had heard God's Message through His Prophet:

" Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God (GODLY SORROW FOR SINS); yes, let every one turn from his evil way (REPENT) and from the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?" (3:7-9)

And God's response:

"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way (REPENTED); and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." (verse 10)

And, Joel 2:12-14;

"“Now, therefore,” says the Lord, “Turn to Me with all your heart (REPENT), With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.” So rend your heart (GODLY SORROW FOR SINS), and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm. Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him"

Ezekiel 33:11;

"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live (REPENT). Turn, turn from your evil ways (REPENT)! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’"

And, Jesus' own words in Luke 24:46-47;

"and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

Here it is very clear that "repentance" is connected with "the forgiveness of sins", which is a pre-requirement for ALL sinners!

Acts 3:19;

""Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

Again, "repentance" is clearly connected with our "sins", and is required to have them forgiven!

Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with His personal sins, as He is sinless. It was in "fulfillment" of the Law of Moses, under which John the Baptist preached. Jesus, by submitting to John's baptism, both authenticated the baptism and ministry of John, that it was from God.

Prince, like many others, have perverted the Gospel of "repentance unto salvation", which is the central plank of the Holy Bible, and teach a corruption on how a hell-bound sinner gets right with God and is saved, which, they say, does not involve saying "sorry for my sins"! This is EXACTLY what the devil will have the Church teach!!!

I agree, however rather than thinking of repentance in terms of "requirement", I think of it as simply the natural response of awareness to the great grace, mercy, and love of God...it is our duty, but at the same time God gives repentance in renewing our minds, so that it is our response to the grace of God. Even knowing we are forgiven, we still turn to God and ask for forgiveness and have God given desires to turn from our sins and live unto Him who made us clean through the cross. Repentance is such a beautiful thing that we should long for it, long for the desire, long to be made clean and for assurance of forgiveness, and most of all long for repentance of such magnitude and authenticity that it brings real life changing results!

 

[AACJ]

If I were thrown into a fiery furnace, I'd definitely be weeping, because I would be terribly sad that I blew it. And if I was mad at God for throwing me in, I'd be gnashing my teeth in anger.

Until the fire killed and consumed me, of course...

Sad. So fire is co-saviour with Christ? Like The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory? What duration or degree of punishment in Hell is necessary to pay the price for one's soul? (Mark 8:37; 1 Corinthians 6:20; Galatians 3:13; 4:5)

Have you considered the price/value of one's soul, friend?

 

[Almost there]

Sad. So fire is co-saviour with Christ? Like The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory? What duration or degree of punishment in Hell is necessary to pay the price for one's soul?

Have you considered the price/value of one's soul, friend?

Straw man.

And the value of my soul is life. Blood must be shed. It's why Christ died and was raised again.

On a side note, whenever I debate Christianity in threads started by "anti" Christians, it is interesting that the events almost always happen this way:

1. They ask, "Why would a loving God torture for eternity those who do not follow him? That is a sick and twisted God. That is why I am not Christian.
2. I say, "That is not what the bible teaches about Christianity.
3. They spend the rest of the thread trying to prove that the bible DOES teach that.

The reason for their need for the bible to teach that is that if you take away the "turn or burn" message, you take away most of why people who would otherwise be receptive to the message just can't take it seriously. Christians who use the turn or burn message to evangelize are not just telling people there is a better way and they can be saved from death. No, they are saying, "folks, it is so much worse than you think it is", and then try to scare people into the church. This is not the message of the gospel or in Acts, or any of the letters. It is not the God of the old or new testaments.

I don't just not believe in the ECT message. I think it does great harm to the Gospel message.

This guy sums it up nicely (the link takes you to the section I'm talking about):
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

 

[AACJ]

I've found that the people I know that actually believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) fall into three camps:

1. They try not to think about it too much and actually hope they are wrong. C. S. Lewis falls into this camp.
2. They are constantly depressed about their loved ones that are not saved.
3. They hate the people that are not saved and are glad it is happening to them. I see that as sort of the "Wesbouro Baptist Church" type of perspective.

The good news is that most people that believe in ECT have not really studied it (I was one of those and fell into the first group). And once people study it (as I finally did), most of them come to some other belief, typically CI (conditional immortality).

What a gross misrepresentation. I believe in ECT, and I certainly am outside your little classification. LOL.

So you have a friend or loved one who has died in their sins or committed suicide?

 

[Denadii]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Well its simple....God never has and never will send anyone to hell. We choose that for ourselves....You live for Him you will live with Him in Heaven. That's His place. If you choose to follow Satan and his cohorts you will follow him to hell. That's his place.

 

[Almost there]

Here is a great analogy to illustrate why the "turn or burn" message actually hurts the Gospel and turns rational people away (from here: Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz ):

Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. "Marry me," he says, "and I will give you a life like you've never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you've ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!"

Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, "You are welcome to take more time, but it's only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life."

What do you suppose would be going through the young woman's mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right's proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she'll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.

Is this God's way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn't that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him "Savior" at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?

 

[AACJ]

.

 

[AACJ]

Straw man.

And the value of my soul is life. Blood must be shed. It's why Christ died and was raised again.

On a side note, whenever I debate Christianity in threads started by "anti" Christians, it is interesting that the events almost always happen this way:

1. They ask, "Why would a loving God torture for eternity those who do not follow him? That is a sick and twisted God. That is why I am not Christian.
2. I say, "That is not what the bible teaches about Christianity.
3. They spend the rest of the thread trying to prove that the bible DOES teach that.

The reason for their need for the bible to teach that is that if you take away the "turn or burn" message, you take away most of why people who would otherwise be receptive to the message just can't take it seriously. Christians who use the turn or burn message to evangelize are not just telling people there is a better way and they can be saved from death. No, they are saying, "folks, it is so much worse than you think it is", and then try to scare people into the church. This is not the message of the gospel or in Acts, or any of the letters. It is not the God of the old or new testaments.

I don't just not believe in the ECT message. I think it does great harm to the Gospel message.

This guy sums it up nicely (the link takes you to the section I'm talking about):
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

That's right--the life of Christ.

The very value of Christ himself has been placed on you by Christ. Now, Christian, please enlighten everyone on this thread on how you suppose the Godless that die in their sins can pay the price of the value of one's soul in the afterlife outside of the Atonement?

 

[AACJ]

Straw man.

And the value of my soul is life. Blood must be shed. It's why Christ died and was raised again.

On a side note, whenever I debate Christianity in threads started by "anti" Christians, it is interesting that the events almost always happen this way:

1. They ask, "Why would a loving God torture for eternity those who do not follow him? That is a sick and twisted God. That is why I am not Christian.
2. I say, "That is not what the bible teaches about Christianity.
3. They spend the rest of the thread trying to prove that the bible DOES teach that.

The reason for their need for the bible to teach that is that if you take away the "turn or burn" message, you take away most of why people who would otherwise be receptive to the message just can't take it seriously. Christians who use the turn or burn message to evangelize are not just telling people there is a better way and they can be saved from death. No, they are saying, "folks, it is so much worse than you think it is", and then try to scare people into the church. This is not the message of the gospel or in Acts, or any of the letters. It is not the God of the old or new testaments.

LOL. if everlasting hell is so abhorrent to the godless and counter-evangelistic, then the Early American Church would have been unable to evangelize/Christianize an entire nation. So that puts the lie to your contention. People rejecting the Gospel on grounds of everlasting punishment are not doing so in truth; they are simply using that as an excuse.

 

[Almost there]

What a gross misrepresentation. I believe in ECT, and I certainly am outside your little classification. LOL.

So you have a friend or loved one who has died in their sins or committed suicide?

Yep. I'm 64.

And yes, my three choices are a bit of a "course filter". It is far more nuanced.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is a great analogy to illustrate why the "turn or burn" message actually hurts the Gospel and turns rational people away (from here: Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz ):
Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. "Marry me," he says, "and I will give you a life like you've never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you've ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!"
Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, "You are welcome to take more time, but it's only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life."
What do you suppose would be going through the young woman's mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right's proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she'll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.
Is this God's way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn't that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him "Savior" at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?

Anybody can concoct a scenarios to prove/disprove almost anything. Where does Jesus or any of the NT writers state clearly that everyone will be saved no matter what?

 

[Almost there]

That's right--the life of Christ.

The very value of Christ himself has been placed on you by Christ. Now, Christian, please enlighten everyone on this thread how you suppose the Godless that die in their sins can pay the price of that value of one's soul in the afterlife outside of the Atonement?

They are outside the atonement. They die in their sins. They pay the price for their sins by dying. Jesus paid the price for my sins (and, I assume, yours) by dying. Blood must be shed, according to the bible.

 

[AACJ]

Yep. I'm 64.

Yes, I thought so. You, like probably most of those rejecting everlasting torment for those dying in their sins, are doing so predominantly because you do not want there to be everlasting torment for those rejecting their Maker to the grave. The supposed alternative that you are advocating for makes it more tolerable for you, does it not? Whoever you loved, liked or committed suicide are now in Hell if they perished in their sins. They will be there without end. That certainly is not God's Fault. All are given equal opportunity and power to receive salvation.

 

[Almost there]

Anybody can concoct a scenarios to prove/disprove almost anything. Where does Jesus or any of the NT writers state clearly that everyone will be saved no matter what?

Yes. Jesus used parables. Parables and analogies are used to help people see a thing from a different point of view or perspective, and they do it by using something that is not the thing in question, but something people can wrap their minds around more easily.

And the analogy I quoted is how a lot of people see the Christian message when the "turn or burn" aspect is applied, and they laugh at it. And rightly so.

 

[AACJ]

They are outside the atonement. They die in their sins. They pay the price for their sins by dying.

Look and please pay attention to what you are advocating. To pay the price for something requires a specific value to be paid. No amount of time spent in hell can pay the price for one's soul. A person cannot redeem their own soul. The value of one's soul is infinite (John 3:16). How infinite is the value of the souls of even the lost?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8).


You have accused others of misinterpreting Scripture. But this is exactly what you have done!

How do you think that one can pay an infinite price with only a limited time or quantity of suffering?

 

[Mark Corbett]

I've heard objections similar to this one you made a number of times:

As I have said elsewhere, "annihilation" reduces all the warnings and threats by God, to nothing more than a farce, as it matters not really what God threatens the wicked with, because He will actually not do anything, as they will "cease to exist"! For Jesus to tell Judas that it would have been "better if he were never born", was a complete waste of time, because Judas has been "wiped out" at death!

As a result, I wrote a blog post to respond to this objection. I include a cartoon in the response to help make a point, but please do not interpret that as meaning that I don't take you seriously. I do take you seriously and I respect you, the cartoon is just a way of making a point in a way which I hope will help people quickly grasp it. Here's the content of the blog post:

Does Annihilationism Make the Threat of Hell Meaningless?

I used to believe the Bible teaches that the unrighteous will suffer eternal conscious torment. I now believe the Bible teaches that the unrighteous will be raised to face judgment, experience some limited amount of conscious suffering, and then God will destroy their bodies and souls (Matthew 10:28), they will perish (John 3:16), and they will be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This view is called Conditional Immortality, or Annihilationism.

I often discuss Conditional Immortality with other Christians who still believe in eternal torment. One objection they raise is that it seems to them that Annihilationism removes the threat of Hell as a motive to seek salvation and avoid sin. Here’s an example from a discussion forum:

As I have said elsewhere, "annihilation" reduces all the warnings and threats by God, to nothing more than a farce, as it matters not really what God threatens the wicked with, because He will actually not do anything, as they will "cease to exist"! (You may see the comment here.)

This accusation is fairly common, so I want to take time to address it. It is wrong for many reasons:

1. Annihilationism allows for a period of conscious suffering. The Bible does not give any detail as to how long this suffering might last. It is likely that suffering will be proportional to a person’s sins, also taking into account how much of God’s will they knew (see Luke 12:47-48, also see the following relevant blog posts: An Eye for An Eye, Hell is Payback). We can trust God that any conscious suffering prior to an unsaved person perishing will be enough to repay them for their sins.

2. Annihilation itself it an extremely weighty and serious punishment. Imagine if a family with four children was going on a long expected vacation to a wonderful destination for two weeks. One of the children committed a sin which was serious in the eyes of his parents. As a result, he is not allowed to go on the vacation. Even if there was no physical pain inflicted, this could be seen as a fairly serious punishment. But the unrighteous are not missing out merely on a two week vacation. They are missing out on an eternity of joy in the presence of our Lord. They are missing out on living in a perfect world full of redeemed people who have been transformed so that we are as loving, good, pure, kind, trustworthy, and honest as Jesus. This is a massively huge punishment. It is in fact an “eternal punishment” because they miss out on the joys of eternal life forever! How can anyone think that missing out on spending eternity in the presence of our Lord with His love and blessing is “nothing more than a farce” of a punishment? Do we value eternal life with Christ so little that it is no big deal to miss it unless the alternative is eternal torment?

3. The objection that the punishment is not severe just does not pass the reality test. Imagine you had a friend who you knew was about to be captured by North Korea, imprisoned and tortured for an unknown length of time, and then executed. Would you say, “Oh, that’s no big deal!”? And yet the annihilation of the wicked is much more severe because it will last forever!

4. The fear of death is common and widespread among the unredeemed. Everyday experience confirms this. The Bible itself teaches this:

NIV Hebrews 2:14-15 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death-- that is, the devil--and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

In describing how the God-given conscious warns even unbelievers of the results of sin, the Bible does not mention eternal torment, but death, as what they know they deserve:

NIV Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

5. The threat of eternal torment can actually backfire. It seems so extremely unjust to torture people forever for sins they commit in a short lifetime. Many people feel it makes God look cruel. In fact, some atheists have mentioned the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment as an important reason for rejecting God and the Bible. If eternal torment were true, then of course we should teach it. But if it is not true (and I’m convinced it is not), then by teaching eternal torment we are hurting God’s reputation and actually driving some people away from Him.

Far from being a farce, the threat of punishment in the form of perishing forever is a Biblical and powerful motivation for people to seek eternal life in Christ Jesus. John 3:16 is a Bible passages often used in evangelism, and for good reason. The alternatives Jesus presents are “eternal life” for those who believe and perishing for those who do not. We would do well to follow this example.

 

[Almost there]

Yes, I thought so. You, like probably most of those rejecting everlasting torment for those dying in their sins, are doing so predominantly because you do not want there to be everlasting torment for those rejecting their Maker to the grave. Whoever you loved, liked or committed suicide are now in Hell if they perished in thier sins. They will be there without end. That certainly is not God's Fault. All are given equal opportunity and power to receive salvation.

Nope. That's not it. Nice try, though.

I studied it.

I believed in ECT, though, like C. S. Lewis, I always had a rough time supporting it. And when I actually DID study it, I made a complete about face.

The biggest problem I had with it is also the reason I so adhere to CI: The more I read the bible and prayed, the less the ECT position matched the personality of the God of the bible, and the more CI matched it. Then I studied it and, presto, every verse I read fit with CI and I had to do definition gymnastics to wedge many of the scriptures into an ECT position.

That was seven years ago. I am fearless regarding arguments against CI now because, for starters, there aren't many, and those that are there are very easy to refute. Usually the person using them doesn't even realize that the scripture does not support their position (and sometimes supports CI) but only their inference from the scripture supports their position.

One of my favorites is all the use of "eternal punishment" as proof of ECT. However, they are applying a specific meaning to the word, "punishment" that is neither inferred nor implied. Getting grounded is punishment. The death penalty is punishment. The words, "eternal punishment" simply means that the punishment is eternal. The next step is to determine what the punishment is. And the answer all over the bible is "death". So, they die and they stay dead. For eternity. Eternal punishment.

But that is just one.

I suppose the fact that I was an adherent of the ECT message for three decades is what makes me so passionate about this. Well, that and I believe the ECT message does serious damage to the Gospel message. It is not merely a benign belief with which I happen to disagree.

 

[AACJ]

Nope. That's not it. Nice try, though.

I studied it.

I believed in ECT, though, like C. S. Lewis, I always had a rough time supporting it. And when I actually DID study it, I made a complete about face.

The biggest problem I had with it is also the reason I so adhere to CI: The more I read the bible and prayed, the less the ECT position matched the personality of the God of the bible, and the more CI matched it. Then I studied it and, presto, every verse I read fit with CI and I had to do definition gymnastics to wedge many of the scriptures into an ECT position.

That was seven years ago. I am fearless regarding arguments against CI now because, for starters, there aren't many, and those that are there are very easy to refute. Usually the person using them doesn't even realize that the scripture does not support their position (and sometimes supports CI) but only their inference from the scripture supports their position.

One of my favorites is all the use of "eternal punishment" as proof of ECT. However, they are applying a specific meaning to the word, "punishment" that is neither inferred nor implied. Getting grounded is punishment. The death penalty is punishment. The words, "eternal punishment" simply means that the punishment is eternal. The next step is to determine what the punishment is. And the answer all over the bible is "death". So, they die and they stay dead. For eternity. Eternal punishment.

But that is just one.

I suppose the fact that I was an adherent of the ECT message for three decades is what makes me so passionate about this. Well, that and I believe the ECT message does serious damage to the Gospel message. It is not merely a benign belief with which I happen to disagree.

Ok, fine, if you're so fearless, then respond to my objection to CT which is partly based on the inability of those dying in their sins to pay the price for their infinitely valued souls.

The price Christ paid was the very value of His own life. That is the value He places on the human soul.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Look and please pay attention to what you are advocating. To pay the price for something requires a specific value to be paid. No amount of time spent in hell can pay the price for one's soul. A person cannot redeem their own soul. The value of one's soul is infinite.

Annihilationism (also called Conditional Immortality) do not believe that the unrighteous redeem their own souls. If that were the case, we would expect them to be resurrected again and given eternal life.

How do you think that one can pay an infinite price with only a limited time or quantity of suffering?

You seem to misunderstand both the annihilationism position and the teaching of Scripture.

The annihilationist position is not that limited suffering pays for the sins. The annihilationist position is that the wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23). There may be some temporary suffering (I believe there will be), but the Bible places far more emphasis on perishing as the result of sin.

The Bible never says that the sins we commit require an "infinite price".

However, even if you believed this, it is worth considering that annihilation is in fact a form of eternal punishment because the unrighteous will be dead forever and will miss out on all eternity spent in the joyful presence of our Lord. The death penalty has never been viewed as one of the most severe punishments because of the amount of suffering involved. Sometimes there is almost no suffering. It is considered severe because of what the person misses out on. Even missing out on several years or decades of life in this fallen world is considered a serious punishment. Missing out on eternity with God in the New Heavens and New Earth is indeed a massively severe punishment which in one sense could be considered "infinite".