how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Almost there]

Ok, fine, if you're so fearless, then respond to my objection to CT which is partly based on the inability of those dying in other sins to pay the price for their infinitely valued souls.

I did. The price is very clear and spelled out in the bible. Blood. Their own. They die. And by "they", I don't mean what Paul calls "this earthly tent" we call the human flesh. I mean the person/mind/soul occupying it. As is made clear in Matthew, we should not fear those that can kill the body, but He who can kill both the body AND soul.

 

[AACJ]

I did. The price is very clear and spelled out in the bible. Blood. Their own. They die. And by "they", I don't mean what Paul calls "this earthly tent" we call the human flesh. I mean the person/mind/soul occupying it. As is made clear in Matthew, we should not fear those that can kill the body, but He who can kill both the body AND soul.

Listen, that material substance known as blood has little to no value in and of itself. The shed blood of CHrist is simply representative of the value of his sacrificed life. That is what is meant in Scripture when it says the life is in the blood. What verses are you referring to that supposedly equates the value of the soul with the value of that material substance called blood?

 

[AACJ]

I did. The price is very clear and spelled out in the bible. Blood. Their own. They die. And by "they", I don't mean what Paul calls "this earthly tent" we call the human flesh. I mean the person/mind/soul occupying it. As is made clear in Matthew, we should not fear those that can kill the body, but He who can kill both the body AND soul.

Have you ever been challenged by anyone bringing up this point of the infinite value of the soul as it relates to the claims of CI, or whatever your calling it?

 

[mkgal1]

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear,and let him be your dread.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Ok, so my understanding of Luke 12:4-5 [snip]

That's still not what I was asking for.

I'm asking for an account where either Jesus or the disciples encountered an "unsaved" person ignorant of their "impending doom" .... and warned them to "accept Jesus and be saved or spend eternity being tormented in Hell" (like what the gospel has become in modern Christianity). If that was so primary.....why don't I recall seeing/reading about an encounter like that? Why isn't it modeled for us to follow?

ISTM you're reframing Luke. From what I remember.....this is addressing followers of Christ (so they wouldn't be at risk of an eternal hell)....during a time of great persecution. I read it as an encouragement to "keep the faith".....and to not be afraid of a physical death from persecution....but to, instead, look at a bigger picture. Immediately following what you've quoted the text says:

"Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."~Luke 12:6​

To me....that means that when our fear is transferred to doing God's will....we are comforted (He transforms fear--casts it out by His love). He's taken the "sting out of death" (1 Cor 15:55-57)

 

[Doug Melven]

So Joseph Prince says that a hell-bound sinner, who has committed the worst kinds of sins, like a serial murderer, or rapist, a child molester, etc, etc, can become a true follower of Jesus Christ, by simply "changing their mind" about God, or something else, and have no "sorrow" (change of mind and heart) for their sinful lives? If this be true, then he is seriously deluded by the father of lies, the devil! Are you saying that a sinner can become a Christian without any "sorrow" for their sinful lives? Do you think that God sent the Prophet Jonah, to one of the most wicked, corrupt and sinful people at that time, the Ninevites, simply to tell them to "change their mind" about him? Listen to the decree that was issued by the king, after the people had heard God's Message through His Prophet:

" Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God (GODLY SORROW FOR SINS); yes, let every one turn from his evil way (REPENT) and from the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?" (3:7-9)

And God's response:

"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way (REPENTED); and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." (verse 10)

And, Joel 2:12-14;

"“Now, therefore,” says the Lord, “Turn to Me with all your heart (REPENT), With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.” So rend your heart (GODLY SORROW FOR SINS), and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm. Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him"

Ezekiel 33:11;

"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live (REPENT). Turn, turn from your evil ways (REPENT)! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’"

And, Jesus' own words in Luke 24:46-47;

"and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

Here it is very clear that "repentance" is connected with "the forgiveness of sins", which is a pre-requirement for ALL sinners!

Acts 3:19;

""Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

Again, "repentance" is clearly connected with our "sins", and is required to have them forgiven!

Jesus' baptism had nothing to do with His personal sins, as He is sinless. It was in "fulfillment" of the Law of Moses, under which John the Baptist preached. Jesus, by submitting to John's baptism, both authenticated the baptism and ministry of John, that it was from God.

Prince, like many others, have perverted the Gospel of "repentance unto salvation", which is the central plank of the Holy Bible, and teach a corruption on how a hell-bound sinner gets right with God and is saved, which, they say, does not involve saying "sorry for my sins"! This is EXACTLY what the devil will have the Church teach!!!

We are off topic here. We should start a new thread.

 

[Almost there]

Listen, that material substance known as blood has little to know value in and of itself. The shed blood of CHrist is simply representative of the value of his sacrificed life. That is what is meant in Scripture when it says the life is in the blood. What verses are you referring to that supposedly equates the value of the soul with the value of that material substance called blood?

It's why Christ died. It's why there were animal sacrifices.

You and I are on the same page regarding the meaning of "blood". It is a symbol. It is a symbol of life. Life expires when you remove the blood from a biological machine that depends on it. The spilling of blood represents death.

 

[AACJ]

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We are off topic here. We should start a new thread.

LOL. Annihilationism and limited punishment are on the way out. They both will soon lose all supposed credibility.

Annihilationism provides an alternative saviour by giving the power to mankind to be released from the bondage of sin and suffering (that's what the Atonement alone can accomplish) by simply killing themselves. That is heretical.

Limited afterlife punishment cannot explain how man can redeem the infinite value of his own soul. Hold on to your hats, ladies and gentlemen. Advocates for everlasting punishment have won this debate!!!!!!!

 

[Almost there]

Have you ever been challenged by anyone bringing up this point of the infinite value of the soul as it relates to the claims of CI, or whatever your calling it?

All the time. It's actually the most common challenge, though it is brought up all sorts of different ways.

One version is this: "The quality of the punishment must match the importance of the person wronged. Since God is infinite and powerful, the punishment must be infinitely serious."

Except that is not from the bible. The concept is from medieval Europe.

And the punishment IS eternal. Killing an "infinitely valuable" soul is pretty darned serious.

 

[AACJ]

It's why Christ died. It's why there were animal sacrifices.

You and I are on the same page regarding the meaning of "blood". It is a symbol. It is a symbol of life. Life expires when you remove the blood from a biological machine that depends on it. The spilling of blood represents death.

Your response does nothing to explain why you are equating the value of blood itself with the value of the soul. There is no equivalence between the two in terms of actual value.

 

[AACJ]

All the time. It's actually the most common challenge, though it is brought up all sorts of different ways.

One version is this: "The quality of the punishment must match the importance of the person wronged. Since God is infinite and powerful, the punishment must be infinitely serious."

Except that is not from the bible. The concept is from medieval Europe.

And the punishment IS eternal. Killing an "infinitely valuable" soul is pretty darned serious.

That's not my proposition. I am basing infinite value of our soul on the value of Christ Himself.

 

[Almost there]

.

LOL. Annihilationism and limited punishment is on the way out. They both will soon lose all supposed credibility.

Annihilationism provides an alternative saviour by giving the power to a mankind to be released from the bondage of sin and suffering (that's what the Atonement alone can accomplish) by simply killing themselves. That is heretical.

Limited afterlife punishment cannot explain how man can redeem the infinite value of his own soul. Hold on t your hats, ladies and gentlemen. Advocates for everlasting punishment have won this debate!!!!!!!

Actually, what I think is happening is this:

As communication becomes more fluid, ideas are more easily discussed, ironed out, adapted or throw out. I believe the invention of the printing press is what gave us the reformation. I believe the growth of the internet and social media is what is destroying ECT.

In both cases, now that people on both sides have a level playing field to discuss, down to a very granular level, an issue, the truth will percolate to the top.

And CI is gaining in adherents at almost an exponential rate. I'm frankly shocked at how many "closet CI" people I've come across.

 

[Almost there]

That's not my proposition. Am basing infinite value on our soul based on the value of Christ Himself.

OK. But he was raised from the dead, as will happen to all who follow Him. Those that don't will stay dead. For the same amount of time. Assuming there is linear time in eternity...

 

[Almost there]

Your response does nothing to explain why you are equating the value of blood itself with the value of the soul. There is no equivalence between the two in terms of actual value.

I think we're getting way too much in the weeds at this point. It would take more than a few forum posts to get into the nuances of this, and that whole issue is a huge minefield and off topic.

 

[AACJ]

And CI is gaining in adherents at almost an exponential rate. I'm frankly shocked at how many "closet CI" people I've come across.

Oh no, Not anymore. Not in the Church of God. From this day forward the supposed alternatives to Scriptural, everlasting punishment will be exposed as the frauds they are. Just a matter of time now.

 

[Almost there]

Oh no, Not anymore. Not in the Church of God. From this day forward the supposed alternatives to Scriptural, everlasting punishment will be exposed as the frauds they are. Just a matter of time now.

Is that a Wal-Mart Crystal ball you are using? Are the batteries fresh?

 

[AACJ]

I think we're getting way too much in the weeds at this point. It would take more than a few forum posts to get into the nuances of this, and that whole issue is a huge minefield and off topic.

That is just another way of saying that you have never had anyone bring what I, by the grace and knowledge of God, have confronted you and others with on this thread. Things change, people of God, as revelation is brought forth through the Holy Spirit. There is much more to come, dear Christians. Much, much more. Stay on the lookout and persevere.

 

[AACJ]

Is that a Wal-Mart Crystal ball you are using? Are the batteries fresh?

LOL. All right. after all is said and done, I love you in the Lord. Stay encouraged, brother.

 

[Mark Corbett]

And CI is gaining in adherents at almost an exponential rate. I'm frankly shocked at how many "closet CI" people I've come across.

I agree. It's growth doesn't prove it is true. Yet, I hear a very consistent testimony from those who have moved to CI. They moved because of careful Bible study. That's why I moved from believing in eternal torment to believing in Conditional Immortality. I studied the Bible a whole lot on this issue and then I studied it some more. The more I study and read, the more evidence I see for CI.

 

[AACJ]

You seem to misunderstand both the annihilationism position and the teaching of Scripture.

I thought the post I responded to was defining CI as some sort of limited punishment in the afterlife.

The Bible never says that the sins we commit require an "infinite price".

It needs not to specifically say such, no more than it must specifically say "the trinity is true." The truth of the infinite value of the soul is evidenced by propositional truth found in scriptural statements as well as demonstrated in Christ's substitutionary atonement.

Are you denying the infinite value of the souls of the godly or the godless? If so, based on what?

The value of the soul is infinite; therefore no man can redeem that value. Only the infinite value of Christ Himself, given as a ransom, can redeem the souls of man. Any other claimed alternative is nothing more than an supposed alternate savior, that would include limited afterlife punishment. Hell nor fire are substitutes for the work of the cross, and therefore they cannot redeem man.

You seem to misunderstand both the annihilationism position and the teaching of Scripture.

No, I understand it.

Missing out on eternity with God in the New Heavens and New Earth is indeed a massively severe punishment which in one sense could be considered "infinite".

No, in fact, it is not. How can a person be the object of punishment if there is nothing there to be punished? Punishment describes some measurable/effective quality and/or action. Non-existence--or nothingness--has no such qualities. Punishment literally cannot possibly exist in nothingness. Punishment is relevant only to that which can be punished.

A convict in prison, in an irreversible coma, is experiencing no punishment, no more than a non-existent person is.

Are you not aware that there are those who would presently love to be rendered non-existent? How can you ascribe punishment to some action that so many would now love to be the recipients of?

If certain Christians have endured years under torture for not denying Christ, how can you possibly believe that those who do deny Christ would receive of God something that releases from all suffering and torment (non-existence)? Shall we elevate faithlessness above faithfulness?

 

[AACJ]

The debate is won, folks.