how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[he-man]

wrong again

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with mein paradise."(KJV the only bible any should use in english) yes its a 45 hour talk too much for here. You have been deceived by the corrupted versions it seems.

Don't you know any Bible History? There is no punctuation in any of the translations, no Caps, no commas, no Chapters, no verses. They have all been added by fallible man and the deception is yours.

 

[Der Alte]

The Word hell is not even in the Greek language and has been mistranslated from three Greek words and one Hebrew. So even to use the word hell is a mis-translation and very bias.
No one will suffer forever the wicked will be punished/pruned/chastised agely not forever. That SICK.
The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell another example of King James Bible mis-translation and bias. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. If you go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes....

What a similar sounding word means in another country very likely has no relevance to this topic. For example my wife is oriental, I worked in her native country for several years. Once while out driving she said "Yahweh yonghwah gukjang". I asked her what she said, she repeated it, I said what does it mean? She answered "drive in theater." I understood "yonghwah" "theater" and "gukjang" something like venue. But I didn't know the other word which has nothing to do with the divine tetragrammaton or the name of God. If the translation of Hebrew sheol as hell is wrong then the Jews have it wrong in their translations.
[color-white].....[/color]According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I showed you very clearly that the word The KJV uses for al the Greek words is hell. It covers all the meanings. Plain and simple.

the translation is in english. When you translate you take english words that are equivalent and as close to the meaning as we have.

I gave you the translations one word do I need to re-post them. The Teutonic pagan word hell means to bury and there is no connection between these three Greek Words and one Hebrew word but that Rome assigned in the dark ages and KJ translators bias mistranslated. There is nothing plain and simple when it comes to torturing BILLIONS of lost souls for ever and ever with NO mercy. This is outright sick and it changes the love of God to a ragging maniac. Like I said its not a translation its a mis-translation. A lie.

That is why scripture not me calls this belief heresy.

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, (Heresy of damning) even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

wrong again

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with mein paradise."(KJV the only bible any should use in english) yes its a 45 hour talk too much for here. You have been deceived by the corrupted versions it seems.

KJ Bible has as many errors as the JW Bible if not more.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

What a similar sounding word means in another country very likely has no relevance to this topic. For example my wife is oriental, I worked in her native country for several years. Once while out driving she said "Yahweh yonghwah gukjang". I asked her what she said, she repeated it, I said what does it mean? She answered "drive in theater." I understood "yonghwah" "theater" and "gukjang" something like venue. But I didn't know the other word which has nothing to do with the divine tetragrammaton or the name of God. If the translation of Hebrew sheol as hell is wrong then the Jews have it wrong in their translations.
[color-white].....[/color]According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

yes you posted this before and I refuted it.

 

[Der Alte]

yes you posted this before and I refuted it.

You may have presented some specious arguments but you have refuted nothing. How can you refute what I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

You may have presented some specious arguments but you have refuted nothing. How can you refute what I posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica?

And please where does it say"Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica" will lead and guide you into ALL truth?????

 

[LoveofTruth]

I gave you the translations one word do I need to re-post them. The Teutonic pagan word hell means to bury and there is no connection between these three Greek Words and one Hebrew word but that

This meaning covers it

""HELL, n.
1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death."

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

This meaning covers it

""HELL, n.
1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death."

Hell a mis-translation so this statement means nothing because the word hell is not in the original language but that is fine with you KJV only people

The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished... -2 Peter 2:9-

Punishment=Kolasis: Correction, Punishment, Penalty.

Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

Kolazo:

1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

2. To curb, check, restrain.

3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

4. To cause to be punished.

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something or make something right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

"Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

To make one what he aught to be.

 

[he-man]

I gave you the translations one word do I need to re-post them. The Teutonic pagan word hell means to bury and there is no connection between these three Greek Words and one Hebrew word but that Rome assigned in the dark ages and KJ translators bias mistranslated. There is nothing plain and simple when it comes to torturing BILLIONS of lost souls for ever and ever with NO mercy. This is outright sick and it changes the love of God to a ragging maniac. Like I said its not a translation its a mis-translation. A lie.

That is why scripture not me calls this belief heresy.

2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, (Heresy of damning) even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

amen

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hell a mis-translation so this statement means nothing because the word hell is not in the original language but that is fine with you KJV only people

English words are not in the Greek. Its a different language...

Baptism, church, Overseer, etc etc

but some words of pagan root such as "temple" believers can use in a different sense. For we are the temple of God. And Jesus said destroy this temple...

Just knowing the meaning of a word doesn't tell you the meaning. Jesus said for example he would build his church" The word church is "ekklesia" This comes from the greek word for a calling out assembly. But if we get literal and technical you create all sorts of problems. Some might say the "ekklesia' was the Greek form of government, so Jesus is building the Greek government. But no. Jesus says he will build his church, his assembly or called out body. The word ekklesia is given a different spiritual meaning, just as the word temple and other words we use.

Interestingly enough the word "church" has roots way back to gathering assembly of people in a circle. Or the house of a lord later. This is a good word for ekklesia. For believers assemble as the house of God.

But to find out what the word "church" really means we need to look at the way it is used in context in scripture. Just as we see the word "hell" and lake of fire " etc. Knowing a root word and pagan use of a word doesn't help you know the actual meaning in scripture all the time.

For example back to the word "church"

scripture says

'And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

and

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

So, we see from scripture that the word "church" "ekklesia" in Greek, is the body of Christ in the New understanding of it. But if you take the literalist and those who strive over the meanings of words, they would say no it means the Greek ekklesia, which was their form of government. if you ask in those days a Greek unbeliever, is the ekklessia the body of Christ and the house of God? ' hey would say no, it is the assembly of men to discuss matters of state.

Yet the word "church " as it is defined in scripture means the body of Christ the house of God. So what are we to follow?

scripture in the Spirit of course.

and by the way "church" is a good translation of "ekklesia". W read of a house of parliament. This house is made up of many members. We are the house of God assembled together as living stones. These many assembled stones make up the house of the Lord the body of Christ.

The word hell" as it was used and understood when the scriptures were being translated. ( not an original meaning or a root meaning) covered all the words for hell and the grave and place of torment and departed spirits and place for sinners etc

 

[ClementofA]

And please where does it say"Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica" will lead and guide you into ALL truth?????

Good answer. At the same time quite amusing. Keep up the good work in the Lord.

 

[he-man]

wrong again

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with mein paradise."(KJV the only bible any should use in english) yes its a 45 hour talk too much for here. You have been deceived by the corrupted versions it seems.

εω ω και τοις εω φυλακα πωασιν πορευθεισ εκηρθξεω Do you see any punctuation??

 

[LoveofTruth]

εω ω και τοις εω φυλακα πωασιν πορευθεισ εκηρθξεω Do you see any punctuation??

your argument is ridiculous. Go study for 10 years the reason why punctuation is in english and why we need it in our language and all bible translations.

and notice there is no comma after today in the KJV.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

English words are not in the Greek. Its a different language...

Baptism, church, Overseer, etc etc

but some words of pagan root such as "temple" believers can use in a different sense. For we are the temple of God. And Jesus said destroy this temple...

Just knowing the meaning of a word doesn't tell you the meaning. Jesus said for example he would build his church" The word church is "ekklesia" This comes from the greek word for a calling out assembly. But if we get literal and technical you create all sorts of problems. Some might say the "ekklesia' was the Greek form of government, so Jesus is building the Greek government. But no. Jesus says he will build his church, his assembly or called out body. The word ekklesia is given a different spiritual meaning, just as the word temple and other words we use.

Interestingly enough the word "church" has roots way back to gathering assembly of people in a circle. Or the house of a lord later. This is a good word for ekklesia. For believers assemble as the house of God.

But to find out what the word "church" really means we need to look at the way it is used in context in scripture. Just as we see the word "hell" and lake of fire " etc. Knowing a root word and pagan use of a word doesn't help you know the actual meaning in scripture all the time.

For example back to the word "church"

scripture says

'And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

and

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

So, we see from scripture that the word "church" "ekklesia" in Greek, is the body of Christ in the New understanding of it. But if you take the literalist and those who strive over the meanings of words, they would say no it means the Greek ekklesia, which was their form of government. if you ask in those days a Greek unbeliever, is the ekklessia the body of Christ and the house of God? ' hey would say no, it is the assembly of men to discuss matters of state.

Yet the word "church " as it is defined in scripture means the body of Christ the house of God. So what are we to follow?

scripture in the Spirit of course.

and by the way "church" is a good translation of "ekklesia". W read of a house of parliament. This house is made up of many members. We are the house of God assembled together as living stones. These many assembled stones make up the house of the Lord the body of Christ.

The word hell" as it was used and understood when the scriptures were being translated. ( not an original meaning or a root meaning) covered all the words for hell and the grave and place of torment and departed spirits and place for sinners etc

I understand all this but you do not approach God's Word like a science book where by dissecting words without God's Spirit allowed to reveal His deep spiritual revelation. This is not rocket science this should be a spiritual revelation. A people who have ears to hear what the spirit quicken or makes alive. We might as well throw the Holy Spirit off the bust according to some on this thread. To box God's Word into some man made interpretation thinking you got God all figured out and totally reject any revelation of God is what the religious realm is all about and that is why they are called Baby-lon in scripture. Baby-lon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord and praise God for all levels of understanding for in my Father's House are many mansions or abiding place. You have a different abiding place than I do but you are only on first base when it comes to what God's Word is saying beyond the letter that killeth. You restrict God to the KJ Bible and will not be moved. You have built the hardest walls know to man religious walls.

God’s Word is like a river that flows its spiritual its alive and the deeper you dig the more amazing it is and very spiritual and very hidden:

Ezekiel 47: 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again, he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually. I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new” scare them.


Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

 

[he-man]

English words are not in the Greek. Its a different language...Baptism, church, Overseer, etc etc but some words of pagan root such as "temple" believers can use in a different sense. For we are the temple of God. And Jesus said destroy this temple... Just knowing the meaning of a word doesn't tell you the meaning. Jesus said for example he would build his church" The word church is "ekklesia" This comes from the greek word for a calling out assembly. But if we get literal and technical you create all sorts of problems. Some might say the "ekklesia' was the Greek form of government, so Jesus is building the Greek government. But no. Jesus says he will build his church, his assembly or called out body. The word ekklesia is given a different spiritual meaning, just as the word temple and other words we use.

Interestingly enough the word "church" has roots way back to gathering assembly of people in a circle. Or the house of a lord later. This is a good word for ekklesia. For believers assemble as the house of God.

But to find out what the word "church" really means we need to look at the way it is used in context in scripture. Just as we see the word "hell" and lake of fire " etc. Knowing a root word and pagan use of a word doesn't help you know the actual meaning in scripture all the time.

For example back to the word "church"

scripture says

'And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

and

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

The word hell" as it was used and understood when the scriptures were being translated. ( not an original meaning or a root meaning) covered all the words for hell and the grave and place of torment and departed spirits and place for sinners etc

Oh? That is not what my Bible says: Shoel a fit symbol of the wicked and future place of destruction. Job 7:9, Job 14:13; Isaiah 14:11 Isaiah 14:15;Psalms 6:5; Ecclesastics 9:10; the same as γεννης

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Good answer. At the same time quite amusing. Keep up the good work in the Lord.

Amen It is God's timing not mine. I just cannot debate some who rejects God's Spirit and treats it like just another word in a book. My patience is truly lacking there.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Amen It is God's timing not mine. I just cannot debate some who rejects God's Spirit and treats it like just another word in a book. My patience is truly lacking there.

Isaiah 8:20 KJV
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the wordof God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"( 2 Tomothy 3:16 KJV)

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." ( the holy scriptures are the truth also. So the Spirit will guide all who are led by the Spirit to the scriptures.)

"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:"(Daniel 10:21 KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."( 1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Isaiah 8:20 KJV
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the wordof God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"( 2 Tomothy 3:16 KJV)

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." ( the holy scriptures are the truth also. So the Spirit will guide all who are led by the Spirit to the scriptures.)

"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:"(Daniel 10:21 KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."( 1 Cor 2:13,14 KJV)

And do you have a point? I know these scriptures.

 

[LoveofTruth]

the

And do you have a point? I know these scriptures.

Spirit and the word go together. You cannot speak of a spiritual man without his continuing in the word and even the very gospel Paul preached was according to scripture and revelation.

To understand scripture is a deeply spiritual revelation.

I have been at this for almost 30 years. I see the very dangerous heresy you teach and according to many many scriptures it is wrong.

You also don't seem to understand God's holiness and wrath against sin. Or at least you seem not to.