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How can baptism be required for salvation?

GodLovesCats

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People don't lose their freedom baptized or not. But if they are they got their sins forgiven and an opportunity to cooperate with the Grace of God to sanctify their life and fulfill their mission as a member of Christ's Body. Or not. Why would you deny that to your baby? What if your baby died before baptism? Do you have a reason to believe it's end is heaven? Any reason it's end is not hell? It's what we all deserve right? Children of wrath that we are.

Jesus said, "Let all of the little children come to me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Does that not mean babies who die before they can be baptized will go to heaven? They have not sinned, according to some believers, because of their inability to know good and evil.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Jesus said, "Let all of the little children come to me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Does that not mean babies who die before they can be baptized will go to heaven? They have not sinned, according to some believers, because of their inability to know good and evil.

This is an excellent question. If baptism is required to enter heaven, where are the priests in the hospitals ensuring that each and every baby gets baptized? If not, then why bother baptizing them?
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This is an excellent question. If baptism is required to enter heaven, where are the priests in the hospitals ensuring that each and every baby gets baptized? If not, then why bother baptizing them?

I was a preemie and not supposed to survive more than a few days. I was baptized the day after I was born. Normally, Orthodox will have the baptism a couple months after the birth.

Eastern Orthodoxy follows a unique practice called "Churching". For the first 40 days after a child is born, mother and child are not expected to be at church, which gives them time to recover and bond. The Sunday after 40 days, they are welcomed back into the church and the priest will present the baby to the church

Taking up the child, the priest lifts him or her up, making the Sign of the Cross with the child before the doors of the temple, saying: "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

The priest then carries the child into the center of the nave, as he says, "I will go into Thy House. I will worship toward Thy Holy Temple in fear of Thee." Stopping in the center, he says, "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. In the midst of the congregation I will sing praises unto Thee."

He then walks up to the iconostasis, and stopping in front of the Holy Doors, he says, "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

In some traditions, the child (whether boy or girl) is taken through the south deacon's door into the sanctuary around the holy table, stopping at each side, completing the circuit at the front of the altar if it is a boy, but ending at the north side if it is a girl. The child is then brought out and returned to his mother. This is the historical norm in the manuscript tradition.

In other traditions, if the child is a girl, the priest places her on the solea in front of the icon of the Theotokos. If the child is a boy, he carries him through the south deacon's door into the sanctuary and around the back of the Holy Table exiting the altar through the north deacon's door and again places the baby boy onto the solea.

He then says the Song of Simeon and says a special apolysis (dismissal), after which he blesses the child with the Sign of the Cross on its forehead, mouth and heart, and returns it to its mother.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I was a preemie and not supposed to survive more than a few days. I was baptized the day after I was born. Normally, Orthodox will have the baptism a couple months after the birth.

Eastern Orthodoxy follows a unique practice called "Churching". For the first 40 days after a child is born, mother and child are not expected to be at church, which gives them time to recover and bond. The Sunday after 40 days, they are welcomed back into the church and the priest will present the baby to the church

Taking up the child, the priest lifts him or her up, making the Sign of the Cross with the child before the doors of the temple, saying: "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

The priest then carries the child into the center of the nave, as he says, "I will go into Thy House. I will worship toward Thy Holy Temple in fear of Thee." Stopping in the center, he says, "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. In the midst of the congregation I will sing praises unto Thee."

He then walks up to the iconostasis, and stopping in front of the Holy Doors, he says, "The servant of God (Name) is churched, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

In some traditions, the child (whether boy or girl) is taken through the south deacon's door into the sanctuary around the holy table, stopping at each side, completing the circuit at the front of the altar if it is a boy, but ending at the north side if it is a girl. The child is then brought out and returned to his mother. This is the historical norm in the manuscript tradition.

In other traditions, if the child is a girl, the priest places her on the solea in front of the icon of the Theotokos. If the child is a boy, he carries him through the south deacon's door into the sanctuary and around the back of the Holy Table exiting the altar through the north deacon's door and again places the baby boy onto the solea.

He then says the Song of Simeon and says a special apolysis (dismissal), after which he blesses the child with the Sign of the Cross on its forehead, mouth and heart, and returns it to its mother.

Thank you. Out of curiosity do you believed that being churched is the same as salvation?
 
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Danthemailman

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Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Likewise there is this from Mark 16 which is use by the pro-baptism for salvation folks -

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved (and has not been baptized - NO!) shall be condemned.

Without faith baptism is utterly meaningless.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Thank you. Out of curiosity do you believed that being churched is the same as salvation?

Orthodox are the process of being saved. So these rites and services are all for our benefit and have their initial origins in the OT. For example, February 2 is 40 days after the Nativity of Christ and when Luke records Mary bringing Jesus to the temple to Simeon following the Torah. This is one of the 12 great feasts, known as the Presentation of the Lord. So the churching is a parallel to that event. Baptism is a parallel to circumcision.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Orthodox are the process of being saved. So these rites and services are all for our benefit and have their initial origins in the OT. For example, February 2 is 40 days after the Nativity of Christ and when Luke records Mary bringing Jesus to the temple to Simeon following the Torah. This is one of the 12 great feasts, known as the Presentation of the Lord. So the churching is a parallel to that event. Baptism is a parallel to circumcision.

Thank you. I would beg to differ with you regarding the parallel between circumcision and baptism. Circumcision is not viewed within Judaism as part of a process of spiritual salvation. It is understood as a divinely-ordained means of identification of God's people from the Gentiles (Goyim).
 
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Danthemailman

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Likewise there is this from Mark 16 which is use by the pro-baptism for salvation folks -

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved (and has not been baptized - NO!) shall be condemned.

Without faith baptism is utterly meaningless.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Likewise there is this from Mark 16 which is use by the pro-baptism for salvation folks:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved (and has not been baptized - NO!) shall be condemned.

Without faith baptism is utterly meaningless.

I was taught in church the word order is key. You have to believe first, then be baptized.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Orthodox are the process of being saved. So these rites and services are all for our benefit and have their initial origins in the OT. For example, February 2 is 40 days after the Nativity of Christ and when Luke records Mary bringing Jesus to the temple to Simeon following the Torah. This is one of the 12 great feasts, known as the Presentation of the Lord. So the churching is a parallel to that event. Baptism is a parallel to circumcision.

Except Jesus was not born in December. How does that work?
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Except Jesus was not born in December. How does that work?

It is the annual liturgical cycle and has nothing to do with actual dating other than Pascha. Basically, we go through the big events of the life of Christ from his Nativity (Dec 25), Circumcision (Jan 1), Baptism (Jan 6), Presentation in the Temple (Feb 2), Annunciation (March 25), and into the Lenten and Paschal cycle which are set by the spring equinox.

 
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SamInNi

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I'll briefly explain the traditional view of the Word of God on earth relative to authority from God.
Jesus confirmed His Word as taught by Moses and those he appointed and his tradition preserved in writing. Authority from God to Moses to generations of religious leaders. The authority of Moses was expressed as a seat. The Chair of Moses. Jesus was obedient to Moses and taught His disciples to do the same.
Mathew 23
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you,

You notice Divine authority demands obedience even if it's in the hands of wicked men.
The Word spoken by Moses continued orally in the mouths of men. Then that tradition is preserved in writing for the teaching authority to use. Those who sit in Moses seat.
Jesus would never disrespect Moses authority. He and Moses had met. Moses seat was Magisterial and the oral transmission of of the Word spoken by Moses continued to the time of Christ. That is the Oral and Magisterial authority that Jesus taught obedience to.
Jesus confirmed His Word as passed down from Moses expressed orally by the Magisterium. Notice Jesus doesn't teach anyone to decide for themselves what scriptures mean. That's a modern notion.
The Word of God is expressed in the same in the same manner by the Church.
A Magisterium with Christ's authority to teach orally the Word of God. The Word is expressed orally by a Magisterium established by God.
Divine authority is exercised by men appointed by Jesus and passed down the generations to this day.
Then at an arbitrary point in time men rejected the authority established by God and claimed it was not placed in any man but exists where it never did before. Where it can't be exercised. By what authority did they decide this? Remember Jesus' condemnation of the very men He taught His disciples to obey? Did Jesus teach them to reject their authority? No. Did He say it was no longer exercised by men? Nope. The seat of authority established by God was never abolished. Moses' yielded to divine authority his seat to men appointed by God the Son.

I really don't understand how authority can exist where it can't be exercised and especially where men not God say it is.


See also: The Power of Tradition

If I was an apologist for the Roman Catholic system I’m not sure I’d draw attention to The Seat of Moses (Matthew 23). Nor would I attempt to draw any parallel with the succession of the Holy See — the Holy Chair, the position and authority of the “Holy Father” — and the existence of the Magisterium in general. Apart from anything else, this institution can’t be historically traced all the way back to Peter and the apostles. But that's not directly voiced in your comments...

God gave His Law through Moses — the very infallible words of God delivered to His chosen people. In Jesus’ day religious teachers had bound up God’s true Word with oral traditions. This mix of man-made teachings and the Word of God misled people into submitting to tradition rather than the Word of God alone. In short, the apostate Jews had invalidated the Word of God for the sake of their tradition.

At the time of Christ the influence of tradition over Scripture was so great that it effectively obscured God's Law, His written Word. By claiming succession from Moses the Jewish religious leaders and teachers exercised an authority that extended to their man-made traditions. (This is already sounding depressingly familiar!) But Christ told the people around Him to “do and observe” what genuinely came from the Law and not to be influenced by mere tradition.

In Mark 7, quoting from Isaiah, Jesus also told these Pharisees and scribes, “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. They worship me in vain, teaching as doctrines human commands…” And He added: “Abandoning the command of God, you hold on to human tradition” (CSB).

This is exactly what we see in the Roman Catholic system today — and yesterday. Hundreds of years ago, in a hard-hitting backlash to what we call The Reformation, the Roman Catholic hierarchy got together in a council (of Trent) and produced documents that specifically targeted the free circulation of God’s Word:

“Translations of the books of the Old Testament may in the judgment of the bishop be permitted to learned and pious men only, provided such translations are used only as elucidations of the Vulgate Edition… Translations of the New Testament made by authors of the first class of this list shall be permitted to no one, since great danger and little usefulness usually results to readers from their perusal” (Council of Trent, “Rules on Prohibited Books”).

Just to emphasise this point, here we have a proclamation from the Roman Catholic system, that banned the distribution of comprehensible Bible versions among the public. Authority belonged to Rome alone. This was a critical necessity because when separated from infallible Tradition, God’s Word offers an altogether different Salvation to that of Roman Catholicism:

“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate, in order to obtain the grace of justification…let him be anathema… If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [the canons and infallible decrees of the Roman Catholic religion] are not necessary for salvation... [and that] men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification… let him be anathema” (Council of Trent).

The Roman Catholic system today makes much of the authority of unwritten, or oral tradition, claiming that it has been passed down from the early Church. However, the Christian “traditions” alluded to in the New Testament had already been shared with local churches. The teaching tradition was already in effect.

And we should also stress that, incongruously, the many extra-biblical traditions of the Roman system are nowhere clearly laid out in the New Testament letters: infant baptism, the mass (being a re-presentation and re-sacrifice of Christ), prayers to Mary, veneration of relics, canonisation of dead people as saints, celibacy of the priesthood, transubstantiation, direct confession of sin to priests, dogma of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the infallibility of the Pope, assumption of Virgin Mary into heaven, and so on.

The Roman system is forced to massage and misuse Scripture in an attempt to validate its extra-biblical Tradition. Definitions must be brought over from Tradition and infused into Bible passages and individual verses. Preference is given to the demands of a “human tradition” that’s alien to God’s Word. The catechism of the Roman Catholic system infallibly states:

"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone… sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls" (emphasis added).

In Roman Catholicism the “salvation of souls” begins with a spiritual new birth in baptism, as we have already noted in this thread. But even though a person may be “freed from sin and reborn” in baptism, he may in the future commit a mortal sin and end up in "hell" anyway!

Venial sins are dealt with in Purgatory over a period of time, and masses can be bought to deal with this unfortunate condition; indulgences are purchased for the souls of those in Purgatory. A mortal sin deprives the Roman Catholic of God’s grace. This is often erroneously confused with authentic Bible teaching regarding those who seem to believe the true Gospel message in Scripture yet fall away into sin and unbelief.

The Tradition-based teaching of justification in Roman Catholicism is a dreadful corruption of the biblical position. The Roman Catholic becomes increasingly righteous as he receives more sacraments. With the essential help of the Church and the priest his justification is increased when he performs good works, but is decreased by venial sin, or lost altogether if he commit a mortal sin. So, how can a Roman Catholic be sure of Heaven when he knows he may yet commit a mortal sin? Where is his assurance?

Rather than bringing religious clarity to God’s Truth, the all-pervasive distraction of Roman Catholic Tradition actually undermines the authority of Scripture. It disastrously shifts attention away from the powerful effects of true salvation in Christ.

In God’s true and authoritative salvation, the righteousness of Christ is credited to those who put their faith in Him: “...the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” (Romans 3:22); “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…” (Romans 4:5); “...be reconciled to God. He made Him [Christ] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2nd Corinthians 5:20, 21, NASB). This gets straight to the very teaching the Council of Trent anathematised (above).

Let’s be very clear about the true Gospel message that’s laid out plainly in the Bible: Christ took to Himself all of the sin, guilt and punishment of all those who are lost. To put it another way, our sin and its dire implications have been credited to His account; through His work on the cross he has fully dealt with our sin and in return we receive His perfect righteousness – we fully enjoy a right standing with God. By our faith alone, Christ's righteousness is imputed (or credited) to the believer’s account.

“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:17-19).​

“Divine authority” is found in God’s Word alone, and in the true Gospel message it contains.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Before I commit to reading all this I want to know if you can identify and define what a man made tradition is.
By claiming succession from Moses the Jewish religious leaders and teachers exercised an authority that extended to their man-made traditions. (
 
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SamInNi

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Before I commit to reading all this I want to know if you can identify and define what a man made tradition is.
"...man-made traditions":

"You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men"; "...thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:8; 13).
 
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Eloy Craft

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"...man-made traditions":

"You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men"; "...thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do" (Mark 7:8; 13).
Nope. That doesn't identify or define a man made tradition.
 
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