Houston police officer shoots dead double amputee in wheelchair

[Chris81]

Take a look at this news story:
Houston cop kills double amputee in wheelchair - US news - Crime & courts | NBC News

Crazy story right? The Houston cop shoots a mentally ill one armed one legged guy in a wheel chair waving because he was waving a pen at his partner and making death threats. Yikes, shooting the guy seems a little excessive.

Though I have to admit that reading this story did make me laugh in a black humor sort of way. I know it is bad, but this story is so ridiculous!

 

[Billnew]

Lets try seeing this from the police side.

Man in wheel chair with known mental issues is aggressive and won't show what is in his hand, and cornered an officier, and is not listening to directions/commands.
He moves the object towards the officier.

1.shoot a double amputee mental patient holding a felt tip pen.
2.Let mentally unstable person stab officier with whatever he is holding.

Kill or allow partner to be killed. From this story, it sounds like it was a justified shooting.

 

[Chris81]

Lets try seeing this from the police side.

Man in wheel chair with known mental issues is aggressive and won't show what is in his hand, and cornered an officier, and is not listening to directions/commands.
He moves the object towards the officier.

1.shoot a double amputee mental patient holding a felt tip pen.
2.Let mentally unstable person stab officier with whatever he is holding.

Kill or allow partner to be killed. From this story, it sounds like it was a justified shooting.

Seriously!

Here is a some problems that I see:

1. How does someone mistake a pen for a knife?
2. How does a veteran officer of the law get cornered by a one armed, one legged guy in a wheel chair?
3. The Officer could have clobbered the guy with a billy club.
4. or just taken the handles of the wheel chair and moved him away from his partner.

 

[usexpat97]

U.S. police are authorized to use deadly force any time their lives are perceived to be in mortal danger, where mortal danger is defined to be anytime a housefly sneezes in the wrong direction.

 

[m.a.r.X]

U.S. police are authorized to use deadly force any time their lives are perceived to be in mortal danger, where mortal danger is defined to be anytime a housefly sneezes in the wrong direction.

Thats seems to be a pretty good explanation.

 

[Glas Ridire]

Seriously!

Here is a some problems that I see:

1. How does someone mistake a pen for a knife?

Shiny, small, pointed, moving about quickly enough that you can't make out what it is and being held in the fashion one holds a knife as opposed to the VERY different way most people hold pens. Hold a knife normally, hold a pen normally. . . tell me if you can spot the difference. Also. . . there is the pen knife:

The thing about blades that are small and skinny, is they will go through police body armor where a fat heavy blade like I carry won't. Body armor hasn't changed that much since the days of chainmail, the narrow blade still gets through with wicked efficiency.

2. How does a veteran officer of the law get cornered by a one armed, one legged guy in a wheel chair?

"Sure you can search my low income housing" turns to "I didn't say you could search the nightstand where I keep my xanax and extra methadone!"

3. The Officer could have clobbered the guy with a billy club.

Various police beating incidents, the move toward ASP batons way from solid clubs or pr24s . . . make officers a little reluctant to use their blunt force trauma instruments. Besides, we would be reading a report on how a terrible officer beat a one armed one legged man in a wheelchair if he had whipped out his ASP. They aren't as big an advantage as you might think. I stopped carrying a blunt force trauma device when the sap fell out of favor, now there was a useful device! But then too, the blow I know I could land to make someone drop something while using a sap, can and likely would cause permanent damage to that arm (in this case on a one armed man) lawsuits. .. . ugly, ugly lawsuits. Safer to use verbal commands until danger justifies a shoot.

4. or just taken the handles of the wheel chair and moved him away from his partner.

Ever tried to wheel a wheelchair one-handed? Chances are, our taxes paid for a motorized chair so the guy wouldn't be limited to circles in forward and reverse. . . ever tried to grab a motorized wheel chair and pull it in the opposite direction it is being driven? Any idea how heavy the battery packs alone on those things are, add grippy tires and a guy who. . . probably hasn't been working out but does probably get change for McDonalds by sitting with a "wounded veteran" sign at a busy intersection. Heavy.


I am not saying the shoot is justified or not, I am saying that the 4 points I was responding to were not well thought out.

 

[Touma]

"She said the man came "within inches to a foot" of the officer and did not follow instructions to calm down and remain still."



So the man is mere inches away from one of the officers, and neither one could make out the pen? Sounds bogus to me. Cops are way to trigger happy. Shoot first, ask later. I believe most or many cops carry other things besides guns. For example, tazers. Or night sticks. Or pepper spray.

 

[DaisyDay]

Police training doesn't seem to be very good when it comes to dealing with psychotic people. They don't have very effective weapons - although in this case, a tazer would seem more appropriate than a gun. For some reason, they can use tranquilizer darts on wild animals but not dangerous people.

 

[Halossellar]

Houston police officer shoots dead double amputee in wheelchair

The wording of that headline is just asking for someone to make a stupid joke. Mustttt hold backkkk....

 

[Halossellar]

Police training doesn't seem to be very good when it comes to dealing with psychotic people. They don't have very effective weapons - although in this case, a tazer would seem more appropriate than a gun. For some reason, they can use tranquilizer darts on wild animals but not dangerous people.

Tasers are used mostly when someone has a slight difference of opinion with an officer.

 

[Chris81]

Shiny, small, pointed, moving about quickly enough that you can't make out what it is and being held in the fashion one holds a knife as opposed to the VERY different way most people hold pens. Hold a knife normally, hold a pen normally. . . tell me if you can spot the difference. Also. . . there is the pen knife:

The thing about blades that are small and skinny, is they will go through police body armor where a fat heavy blade like I carry won't. Body armor hasn't changed that much since the days of chainmail, the narrow blade still gets through with wicked efficiency.

How on earth would someone mistake a pen for a knife when the article stated that he was waving the pen inches away from his partner? Are you really serious about the pen knife? Give me a brake, he is in a group home, I'm sure the care takers wouldn't allow him to even have a butter knife. From what I have read on the internet, the reason that he had the pen was because he liked to doodle.

"Sure you can search my low income housing" turns to "I didn't say you could search the nightstand where I keep my xanax and extra methadone!"

I don't get your point!

Various police beating incidents, the move toward ASP batons way from solid clubs or pr24s . . . make officers a little reluctant to use their blunt force trauma instruments. Besides, we would be reading a report on how a terrible officer beat a one armed one legged man in a wheelchair if he had whipped out his ASP. They aren't as big an advantage as you might think. I stopped carrying a blunt force trauma device when the sap fell out of favor, now there was a useful device! But then too, the blow I know I could land to make someone drop something while using a sap, can and likely would cause permanent damage to that arm (in this case on a one armed man) lawsuits. .. . ugly, ugly lawsuits. Safer to use verbal commands until danger justifies a shoot.

Are you for real? Are you really saying that it is better to kill rather than beat someone?

Ever tried to wheel a wheelchair one-handed? Chances are, our taxes paid for a motorized chair so the guy wouldn't be limited to circles in forward and reverse. . . ever tried to grab a motorized wheel chair and pull it in the opposite direction it is being driven? Any idea how heavy the battery packs alone on those things are, add grippy tires and a guy who. . . probably hasn't been working out but does probably get change for McDonalds by sitting with a "wounded veteran" sign at a busy intersection. Heavy.

Either you would wheel him away as he is still waving his pen around or I would imagine that he would have to drop the pen in order to run the wheel chair, thereby disarming him.

I am not saying the shoot is justified or not, I am saying that the 4 points I was responding to were not well thought out.

Ah, playing devils advocate!

 

[Glas Ridire]

How on earth would someone mistake a pen for a knife when the article stated that he was waving the pen inches away from his partner? Are you really serious about the pen knife? Give me a brake, he is in a group home, I'm sure the care takers wouldn't allow him to even have a butter knife. From what I have read on the internet, the reason that he had the pen was because he liked to doodle.

I have a gun because I like to target shoot. Please understand me when I tell you, if I decide to use it as a weapon . .. it is bloody effective. Yes I am serious about pen knives. They sell 'em at gun shows, they sell them over the internet, the gimmicky knife booth at the state fair. . .. they aren't hard to get. Most of 'em even take a shortened ink cartridge so you can doodle with them. Point being Cops are trained to recognize weapons and potential improvised weapons & how an item is presented has an effect on how it is perceived.

I don't get your point!

Why were the police there? What was the disturbance? The nature of the call? Some calls shift midway through, for example the woman who calls the cops because her hubby is beating her may try and stick a BBQ fork in a cops neck when the cop takes hubby to the ground because he is resisting arrest. If you aren't a cop. . . . I understand why it may seem bizarre.

Are you for real? Are you really saying that it is better to kill rather than beat someone?

When it comes to liability, it is best to avoid beating someone. In this age of I-doodads and everybody looking to blog the next big thing, nobody wants to get caught on tape doing something that could be taken out of context and turned into a scandal. Remember this Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? How is Crowley's career doing?

Either you would wheel him away as he is still waving his pen around or I would imagine that he would have to drop the pen in order to run the wheel chair, thereby disarming him.

You don't spend much time around motorized wheel chairs do ya? It is designed not to move unless the controller is manipulated. The controller would be in the guys reach, being his wheel chair and all. You have to get in stabbing range to take hold of the controller

Note also the lack of handles on the back to "wheel him away" with.

Ah, playing devils advocate!

No, just responding to some genuinely poorly thought out responses.

 

[Chris81]

I have a gun because I like to target shoot. Please understand me when I tell you, if I decide to use it as a weapon . .. it is bloody effective. Yes I am serious about pen knives. They sell 'em at gun shows, they sell them over the internet, the gimmicky knife booth at the state fair. . .. they aren't hard to get. Most of 'em even take a shortened ink cartridge so you can doodle with them. Point being Cops are trained to recognize weapons and potential improvised weapons & how an item is presented has an effect on how it is perceived.

So if police are trained to recognize weapons, the officers in question should have recognized that a ball point pen is not a knife.

When it comes to liability, it is best to avoid beating someone. In this age of I-doodads and everybody looking to blog the next big thing, nobody wants to get caught on tape doing something that could be taken out of context and turned into a scandal. Remember this Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? How is Crowley's career doing?

This is already a scandal, the FBI is investigating the shooting. I fail to see how officer shoots double amputee in wheelchair is less problematic of a headline in comparison to officer beats double amputee in wheelchair. The beating sounds bad but the shooting sounds a lot worse. The only benefit to killing the suspect is that he can neither sue you nor testify against you. However, that is a really bad reason for a cop to kill someone.

You don't spend much time around motorized wheel chairs do ya? It is designed not to move unless the controller is manipulated. The controller would be in the guys reach, being his wheel chair and all. You have to get in stabbing range to take hold of the controller

Note also the lack of handles on the back to "wheel him away" with.

Okay, I admit that I am totally wrong regarding the wheel chair. I would imagine that the officer still would have had clear access from behind the chair to beat the guy over the head. Surely the guy would have dropped his pen in that circumstance.

This shooting is completely unnecessary. The guy apparently went ballistic because he was not allow cigarettes or soda. If that is all that he wanted, the care takers should have asked the officers to bring a carton of Marlboros and a 12 pack of Coke. Problem solved!

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

So why not use a taser?

 

[Glas Ridire]

So if police are trained to recognize weapons, the officers in question should have recognized that a ball point pen is not a knife.

Okay . .. . riddle me this Batman, check the attached picture and tell me which ones are pen knives and which ones are dangerous.

This is already a scandal, the FBI is investigating the shooting.

It isn't uncommon to have an outside agency investigate & generally the more sure you are that your cops are in the right, the higher up the LEO food chain one wants to go with the agency clearing their cops. No big deal, certainly not incriminating.

I fail to see how officer shoots double amputee in wheelchair is less problematic of a headline in comparison to officer beats double amputee in wheelchair.

One suggests a cop fearing for his own safety or the safety of another, from fear of great bodily harm or death, used lethal force legally. The other suggests a sadistic monster for whom mere unemployment is not enough punishment. . . . not my call, nor is it the court of internet opinion's.

The beating sounds bad but the shooting sounds a lot worse. The only benefit to killing the suspect is that he can neither sue you nor testify against you. However, that is a really bad reason for a cop to kill someone.

Not really. No. Beating implies a loss of self control. Shooting on the other hand, especially where a one shot stop is concerned, implies significant self control.

Okay, I admit that I am totally wrong regarding the wheel chair. I would imagine that the officer still would have had clear access from behind the chair to beat the guy over the head. Surely the guy would have dropped his pen in that circumstance.

Blows to the head are illegal, with blunt weapons. A few posts back, I mentioned that I used to carry a sap. In training, it was made very clear, even with a sap, that major muscle groups were the ONLY viable target and joint or head strikes while effective require the same standards of reasonable force as shooting (in layman's terms: no head, elbow or shoulder strikes unless they meet the standard for being shot dead) But if you have lethal force available and you use a blunt instrument instead of the gun, in a situation dictating lethal force . .. that can open you up to liabilities and questions that are . . . terminally bad for one's career & bank account.

This shooting is completely unnecessary. The guy apparently went ballistic because he was not allow cigarettes or soda. If that is all that he wanted, the care takers should have asked the officers to bring a carton of Marlboros and a 12 pack of Coke. Problem solved!

So does this mean if I go "ballistic", the cops should bring me a fancy pizza and some Chimay? How does that fly in the real world?

 

[pgp_protector]

Seriously!

Here is a some problems that I see:

1. How does someone mistake a pen for a knife?
2. How does a veteran officer of the law get cornered by a one armed, one legged guy in a wheel chair?
3. The Officer could have clobbered the guy with a billy club.
4. or just taken the handles of the wheel chair and moved him away from his partner.

1)

2) see 1)
3) Officers don't carry billy clubs last time I checked.
4) Now you've got 2 stabbed officers.

 

[Chris81]

Okay . .. . riddle me this Batman, check the attached picture and tell me which ones are pen knives and which ones are dangerous.

They all look like pens to me. I don't see a blade. I must be missing something. Remember, we are talking about a one armed one legged paranoid schizophrenia living in a group home living as a ward of the state with not a cent to his name. He can't go shopping on Ebay or travel down to some store and buy himself a pen knife. Likely he wouldn't even know what a pen knife is, I doubt most anyone has ever even heard of a pen knife.

It isn't uncommon to have an outside agency investigate & generally the more sure you are that your cops are in the right, the higher up the LEO food chain one wants to go with the agency clearing their cops. No big deal, certainly not incriminating.

If you don't believe me, read the article:

FBI to investigate officer shooting double-amputee – USATODAY.com

Blows to the head are illegal, with blunt weapons. A few posts back, I mentioned that I used to carry a sap. In training, it was made very clear, even with a sap, that major muscle groups were the ONLY viable target and joint or head strikes while effective require the same standards of reasonable force as shooting (in layman's terms: no head, elbow or shoulder strikes unless they meet the standard for being shot dead) But if you have lethal force available and you use a blunt instrument instead of the gun, in a situation dictating lethal force . .. that can open you up to liabilities and questions that are . . . terminally bad for one's career & bank account.

So you have to use lethal force even when blunt force is an option. I don't get it.

So does this mean if I go "ballistic", the cops should bring me a fancy pizza and some Chimay? How does that fly in the real world?

Yes! If you go ballistic just give me a call and I will pay for the delivery of whatever pizza you want, heck make that two of your favorite pizza with an order of Chimay!

 

[Chris81]

1)

2) see 1)
3) Officers don't carry billy clubs last time I checked.
4) Now you've got 2 stabbed officers.

1) How many pen knives have you ever seen in real life? Meaning before you saw Glas Ridire post a picture in his previous posts.
2) Your answer makes no sense. If a guy with a wheel chair is threatening you with what you believe to be a knife, why allow him to get within inches of you.
3) Officers no longer carry these anymore:

I guess they are technically called batons or nightsticks these days.
4) Remember were talking about mentally ill guy with one arm and one leg. The idea that this guy is going to kill two police officers, makes no sense in the realm of reality.

 

[Chris81]

So why not use a taser?

If you kill him, he can't sue you!

 

[Chris81]

So why not use a taser?

Seriously, here is the reason that they did not taser him:

Houston police used Tasers on the mentally ill - Houston Chronicle

I think the most troubling part of this 2007 study was this finding.

....In many cases, officers were forewarned they were about to encounter someone with mental health issues — yet almost never did officers call on colleagues specially trained to deal with the mentally ill to calm a volatile episode, according to police reports....

....Houston Police Department records, obtained by the Chronicle, show that officers are making fewer calls for support from members of the "crisis intervention team," a group of officers trained to deal with people with mental illness. For the first time since the team's inception in 1999, the number of calls for crisis-trained officers decreased in 2006 from the previous year's level, HPD records show....

....Lee also cites shortcomings in the emergency-call process that result in dispatchers failing to identify people experiencing mental problems and sending untrained officers to those calls.

But even when officers responded to calls that clearly presented mental health issues, specialized officers were not summoned before people were stunned with a Taser...

It makes you wonder, what might have happened had the right people have been brought to the scene to possibly resolve the situation without gun fire.