home school

[~Anastasia~]

Just to clarify - I wasn't saying that homeschooling students can't excel in Maths. But rather my point is that a purely UNschooling approach is very unlikely to include advanced Maths.

I suppose it's still possible, if the student truly pursues it. I attended public school, but I developed an interest in algebra around 5th grade or so, and was given more advanced textbooks and taught myself.

But if one takes unschooling to the point of eschewing textbooks, I honestly don't see how advanced algebra, trigonometry, or calculus are likely to be learned.

But I am in no way suggesting that homeschool is inadequate. I homeschooled my daughter, and she ended up finishing in public high school with many honors, winning national contests, full ride scholarships including university Presidential scholarship, etc.

I will never say that homeschooled students can't excel. I was sharing a concern for curriculum-wide unschooling in advanced grades.

 

[Naboo]

Of our seven homeschooled children, one is a veterinarian, one is an engineer, and one is a contractor. All are math-heavy careers.

Homeschooling didn't seem to hurt them any.

That's fantastic. But what I am saying, if I was unschooled (and I'm talking about unschooling here, NOT home-schooling) I would not have even a basic understanding of Maths or even be able to complete the simplest calculations because I would not have chosen for it to be a part of my program. (Unschooling is different to home-schooling, which still follows a set curriculum). I was not a student who enjoyed nor excelled in Maths and if I was a part of a student-lead learning program I would not have done any Maths...

 

[Blue Wren]

Unschooling? Parents in the US are allowed to not give their children any form of schooling, at all?

 

[keith99]

Just to clarify - I wasn't saying that homeschooling students can't excel in Maths. But rather my point is that a purely UNschooling approach is very unlikely to include advanced Maths.

I suppose it's still possible, if the student truly pursues it. I attended public school, but I developed an interest in algebra around 5th grade or so, and was given more advanced textbooks and taught myself.

But if one takes unschooling to the point of eschewing textbooks, I honestly don't see how advanced algebra, trigonometry, or calculus are likely to be learned.

But I am in no way suggesting that homeschool is inadequate. I homeschooled my daughter, and she ended up finishing in public high school with many honors, winning national contests, full ride scholarships including university Presidential scholarship, etc.

I will never say that homeschooled students can't excel. I was sharing a concern for curriculum-wide unschooling in advanced grades.

I'd say beyond very unlikely. There was one case I know of in Poland where a positive genius rederived about 100 years of advances in mathematics. But even in his case he started with a 100 year old advanced textbook.

The really sad part there is many true geniuses in the math area hit their peak early. By the time he was recognized his prime was well past. Very sad. If he had been properly schooled he would have learned all he derived and still had good years left to actually advance mathematics.

Growing up I could easily have done everything up to trig without text books. But only because I had access to my mom. A more talented individual lacking texts and that resource would be lucky to get through the first part of algebra.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'd say beyond very unlikely. There was one case I know of in Poland where a positive genius rederived about 100 years of advances in mathematics. But even in his case he started with a 100 year old advanced textbook.

The really sad part there is many true geniuses in the math area hit their peak early. By the time he was recognized his prime was well past. Very sad. If he had been properly schooled he would have learned all he derived and still had good years left to actually advance mathematics.

Growing up I could easily have done everything up to trig without text books. But only because I had access to my mom. A more talented individual lacking texts and that resource would be lucky to get through the first part of algebra.

You're right - I was being very generous when I said "very unlikely".

I agree with you. That's why I prefer a systematic approach, and making sure nothing is missed, especially where Maths are concerned.

I did work hard to find something that worked well for my daughter. Our first program was very comprehensive, and she loved it at first, but it didn't progress fast enough. The second program was more like typical old-school workbook grind, and she hated it. The third one was a great fit - a new concept taught every day except test and review days, and the other half of each session devoted to broad review so she never forgot anything but never had to do more than a few problems of each type every day. It was perfect all through elementary school, and then she was ready for 8th grade level algebra (which also took two tries to get a fit).

Public schools generally don't have that luxury. And pretty much no one like the math curriculum our county is using right now.

But I definitely believe in structure and planning, on the part of the teacher, and where possible, tailoring the program to fit the student's style to keep them engaged, motivated, and learning.

I just can't get on board with strict "unschooling" although I did allow aspects of it in some work.

For example, our computer class revolved around my daughter designing a fan site that she developed and maintained for her favorite video game (RPG).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Unschooling? Parents in the US are allowed to not give their children any form of schooling, at all?

That is not what it means.

Public school is available for all children. Parents also have the option of private school or homeschooling.

Homeschooling can mean any (or a combination) of things like co-op schools, online or otherwise computerized schooling, a packaged curriculum, a curriculum pieced together by the parents, or even no curriculum at all.

You'll get different definitions of unschooling, depending on who you ask, but generally there is no curriculum, no plan, no tests, no grades, and no formal instruction. Ideally there WOULD BE instruction, just incorporated into whatever the student wants to learn and what he pursues for himself. Children can learn a lot in such a scenario, but it tends to be a lot about what they're interested in. Things they care nothing for can be completely avoided. And with no formal plan, it is very easy to leave "holes" in what would normally be taught.

It's just one idea of how education can be, and not at all a mainstream one. And no, certainly nothing to do with being a government requirement.

Sorry if I somehow gave that impression.

 

[Blue Wren]

The description, of unschooling, it sounds as I had thought it did. I realised, there were some parents, who would have some organisation to it, yes. If there are no requirements, then some parents, might not teach much at all. I think, a structured education, it is good.

In Sweden we have compulsory education, for all children.

 

[keith99]

That is not what it means.

Public school is available for all children. Parents also have the option of private school or homeschooling.

Homeschooling can mean any (or a combination) of things like co-op schools, online or otherwise computerized schooling, a packaged curriculum, a curriculum pieced together by the parents, or even no curriculum at all.

You'll get different definitions of unschooling, depending on who you ask, but generally there is no curriculum, no plan, no tests, no grades, and no formal instruction. Ideally there WOULD BE instruction, just incorporated into whatever the student wants to learn and what he pursues for himself. Children can learn a lot in such a scenario, but it tends to be a lot about what they're interested in. Things they care nothing for can be completely avoided. And with no formal plan, it is very easy to leave "holes" in what would normally be taught.

It's just one idea of how education can be, and not at all a mainstream one. And no, certainly nothing to do with being a government requirement.

Sorry if I somehow gave that impression.

Cool!

No English class, better still no foreign language class and I could have been making high explosives when I was 14!

That might not have been good for the rest of the world however.

That was a reasonable outcome if 'unschooled' for me.

Letting a student run forward (but with some guidance) is good. I seriously wish I could have done that. Would have been fun to have completed a college math major while still in High school.

But allowing the holes is not acceptable, much as I would have liked to dodge foreign language.

 

[Naboo]

Letting a student run forward (but with some guidance) is good. I seriously wish I could have done that. Would have been fun to have completed a college math major while still in High school.

I am a teacher and I agree with this 100%, in fact, the way that the public school is run where I teach, we allow students to lead their own curriculum based on their own interests and skills. However, it is still highly structured and we teachers still provide lots of guidance so that we 1) Know that they are meeting the curriculum standards, and 2) Are working at the ability THEY are individually capable of.

 

[.chrys.]

Would have been fun to have completed a college math major while still in High school.
.

Never too late to start! Crack open those textbooks!

 

[keith99]

Never too late to start! Crack open those textbooks!

I never said or implied I did not pretty much complete a college math major in college.

 

[keith99]

I am a teacher and I agree with this 100%, in fact, the way that the public school is run where I teach, we allow students to lead their own curriculum based on their own interests and skills. However, it is still highly structured and we teachers still provide lots of guidance so that we 1) Know that they are meeting the curriculum standards, and 2) Are working at the ability THEY are individually capable of.

For some time I have thought that History would be much more interesting for students if 10-20% of any class (meaning for the semester, not each and every day) was devoted to an area of interest within the scope of the class. Allowing each student to go into detail on some area of interest to them.

Done well the benefit to the teacher starts right away. Suddenly there is a reason to pay attention and to look for the doorway to that area of interest.

Lets say a class covered just the lead up and aftermath to WW II. Here are some sample topics.

The impact of WW II on women's roles in America
On Blacks
On Japanese
How the internment of Japanese citizens impacted American thought after the War.
The 442nd, the unit itself or the politics involved or both.
The Venlo Incident
The impact of Australian units serving in Europe
The White Rose
Graf Neun
European economic conditions leading up to WW II.
The Flying Tigers
Pearl Harbor - Conspiracy or chances missed?
Lafayette Escadrille
Efforts to save Jews and roadblocks. (Or zeroed in of just the S.S. St. Louis).
Rommel - Either his military genius or his disillusionment.

And of course any of a score of individual battles.

And this is a list from a guy who hated history in school.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I hated history in school as well ... for us it was nothing but memorizing dates, places, names, documents.

When I started reading more biographical accounts when homeschooling my daughter, I began to find it fascinating.

 

[~Anastasia~]

A dedicated and competent teacher (be that the parent in the case of homeschooled children, or a paid teacher) CAN monitor something that looks very like "unschooling" ... Encouraging the child to pursue interests, learn, and challenge himself, and helping to guide those interests to fulfill curriculum objectives.

In fact I did something very like this in the early years (and yes, I let "dinosaurs" be my daughter's science theme for about 80% of her science up to 7 years old, but we covered a lot of various subject areas and didn't miss anything she would have been expected to know by then). But there came a time to put away dinosaur books for a while and focus on other things.

There also came a time she was forced to endure the tedium of learning to write cursive properly, even though everyone uses electronic devices now. Left to her own preferences, that might not have ever happened, lol.

As a guiding principle, it can be good, as long as care is taken to balance the overall learning.

The problem is that most of the "unschooling" parents seemed to hate textbooks and formal instruction themselves (it nearly always seemed a reaction against bad childhood experiences of their own), or else they are simply far too lazy to teach anything consistently. As a result, their children tended to excel at video games, making cookies, knitting, drawing, or whatever they happened to enjoy, but be completely uneducated in perhaps history and/or science and/or grammar - basically most other subjects.

Pulling together and teaching a comprehensive curriculum that best engages the child's abilities, interests, and learning style takes a tremendous amount of work! Planning AND executing such a learning strategy is more than a full-time job.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I have two friends who were "unschooled" for a part of their education, and they had polar experiences with one flourishing and the other shriveling academically and socially. For the friend who thrived, unschooling was about giving her the liberty to learn from the world through exploration of it. She attended school as a young child, and then when she was 11 her family decided to embark on an adventure to circumnavigate the globe. They live on a houseboat! She and her parents crafted her education in an unconventional and creative way, but it was still purposeful and directed. She has been traveling to historical places and museums around the world, learning how to sail, and reading extensively. She switched to an online high school to learn more advanced material in preparation for college and be a part of a social network.

For my other friend unschooling was about withdrawing her from the world in a misguided attempt to protect her from it, rather than withdrawing her from school to thrust her into the world. I met her at a dance intensive a few years ago, and haven't seen her in person since because she's receded from all social activities. Her mom has serious psychological problems she refuses to obtain professional help for, is fanatically religious, and inflicts her paranoia upon her. She's not even allowed to dance anymore. She has a strong desire to gain knowledge abut is deprived of a former education. Her mom won't even let her attend the free virtual online school, and just insists she's learning something new everyday when in actuality she isn't. She's tried to pass the CHSPE through learning the material on her own, and hasn't been successful.

I strongly believe that teens should have the right to an education and be able to hold the reigns more for it because it's their future they are steering into. I'm glad I've had control over my own education. It's wonderful when kids who are homeschooling or unschooling bloom. I have a few friends at my OHS who homeschooled in their younger years primarily because there weren't academically challenging programs available for them at local schools, and they and their parents did an excellent job. They used resources like those through Hoagie's Gifted, Duke TIP, Coursera, and Harvard X to devise their own curriculum. The school is for grades 7 through 12 but some of the kids are considerably younger than average for their grade level. They also had other activities like dance, music, or sports. They were happy. I also have other friends who've told me horror stories about their homeschooling experiences and having to take years worth of remedial classes at community college because they performed so poorly on placement tests. Mainly, I think that if a teen wants to go to school, he or she should have that choice. I remember reading about a teen in Virginia who vigorously tried to enroll himself in his local public high school, appealing to administers and to the school board, and was denied because his parents refused to sign off. His desire was simply to become prepared for college, which should have been encouraged.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Never too late to start! Crack open those textbooks!

That's true! My nana was an educator for nearly fifty years, working as a teacher, a school principal and then transitioning into being a university professor, before
finally retiring in her 70s a few years ago. She is determined to keep her mind active and to keep learning. She loves taking classes at the university she used to teach at, and is just tickled by being a student. She also is in the writing workshop program through Stanford's online community school for adults, and is writing about her journeys. My grandpa has also started to take classes through EdX and Coursera.

https://www.edx.org/schools-partners
https://www.coursera.org

Anyone can take the classes! For free! No worries about grades, either. It's all just for the love of learning.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for those links. I may look into what's available myself. I always said that when I get to be a "senior" if the program is still available at the local university - I plan to enroll! (They allow seniors to take courses for free, non-credit.)

The resources available today are wonderful. When I was homeschooling my daughter, there was only one online school, and the curriculum was pre-planned. I saw no real advantage to it, for us, because students learned exactly what and how they would in public school, minus the social aspect. (Admittedly sometimes the socialization provided by public school is a negative influence, but no socialization at all is far worse, IMO.)

Which reminds me of one young mother I met who sounds like the one just described. We met at the library, and her reason for wanting to homeschool was so she could remove her daughter from society and isolate her. She was very religious too. That just doesn't work, on so many levels. I agree with having a measure of control over the influences our children are subjected to at an early age, but the sad fact is that the world is an ungodly place, and children need many kinds of lessons to be able to live in and keep their faith and be able to resist peer pressure and so on. Locking them away is not the answer, and causes far more harm. I'm sorry to hear about the young lady you met.

Homeschooling teens against their will is another odd thing. I'm not speaking of a child who gets a bit upset temporarily and wants a way out, but if they are determined to go to public school - they are so close to being adults, and after all, it is our job to teach them to function in the world. To deny them that teaching and then turn them loose unprepared when they are old enough to choose for themselves is failing in our responsibilities to our children.

I am really grieved for the children who want to learn and their parents prevent it. I know the laws are different in every state, but that cannot happen here. It is mandatory to evaluate students each year, and one year of failure is tolerated, but if they don't progress sufficiently for two years in a row, they may no longer be homeschooled.

Of course there are ways around that if both the children and parents want to keep them out of school, if a sympathetic psychologist or teacher can be found.

 

[keith99]

I hated history in school as well ... for us it was nothing but memorizing dates, places, names, documents.

When I started reading more biographical accounts when homeschooling my daughter, I began to find it fascinating.

That is exactly what it was in Jr. High for me. I happened to get lucky in High School and by blind chance got a teacher who spent as much time as possible on more than memorization.

The really good news for me is he was a harder grader than most. That meant going forward it was easy to get in his classes.

I've recently been looking at a professor rating site and I realize that there is a huge tendency for teachers to get rated by students based more on how easy they are than anything else. Fine if it is explicit, but I saw a lot of ratings where I could see that was a major influence where it might not be obvious to others. I think that is something that students who have been homeschooled well need to be acutely aware of. Boring but easy teachers will get good ratings from many students. And by High School or College almost everyone will be taking at least some more formal classes.

I never was home schooled in the sense of not attending a brick and mortar school. But I had quite a bit of supplemental schooling. I was doing constructive geometry by about 11. By 12 or 13 I had built 2 computers. One analog and really just a meter and 2 variable resisters. The other a digital accumulator where when a pulse comes in it would flip a bit and if that one was already on it would then send the signal on to the next place. About 8 places. More an exercise in soldering electrical components, transistors being the expensive parts. That was a bit before Integrated circuits.

One thing I honestly do not remember but have been told about is that at one point I had some trouble in math class. Trouble with math would be grossly misleading statement. In short I was beyond bored. It seems my mom cut a deal that if I did the classwork then the teacher would give me some stuff to do that mom would send with me. Hmm. Did I mention I was very fast at math? I wonder if this might be a contributor.

I'm also curious how people here would count a lot of the reading I did in Jr. High. I happened to have an excellent English teacher who encouraged me to read books generally thought of as beyond my grade level. So I ended up reading quite a bit a Faulkner, Hemmingway and Steinbeck.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That is exactly what it was in Jr. High for me. I happened to get lucky in High School and by blind chance got a teacher who spent as much time as possible on more than memorization.

The really good news for me is he was a harder grader than most. That meant going forward it was easy to get in his classes.

I've recently been looking at a professor rating site and I realize that there is a huge tendency for teachers to get rated by students based more on how easy they are than anything else. Fine if it is explicit, but I saw a lot of ratings where I could see that was a major influence where it might not be obvious to others. I think that is something that students who have been homeschooled well need to be acutely aware of. Boring but easy teachers will get good ratings from many students. And by High School or College almost everyone will be taking at least some more formal classes.

I never was home schooled in the sense of not attending a brick and mortar school. But I had quite a bit of supplemental schooling. I was doing constructive geometry by about 11. By 12 or 13 I had built 2 computers. One analog and really just a meter and 2 variable resisters. The other a digital accumulator where when a pulse comes in it would flip a bit and if that one was already on it would then send the signal on to the next place. About 8 places. More an exercise in soldering electrical components, transistors being the expensive parts. That was a bit before Integrated circuits.

One thing I honestly do not remember but have been told about is that at one point I had some trouble in math class. Trouble with math would be grossly misleading statement. In short I was beyond bored. It seems my mom cut a deal that if I did the classwork then the teacher would give me some stuff to do that mom would send with me. Hmm. Did I mention I was very fast at math? I wonder if this might be a contributor.

I'm also curious how people here would count a lot of the reading I did in Jr. High. I happened to have an excellent English teacher who encouraged me to read books generally thought of as beyond my grade level. So I ended up reading quite a bit a Faulkner, Hemmingway and Steinbeck.

I don't know about these days, but a lot of "untraditional learning" was frowned upon when I was a child. I got bored with the children's section of the library and wandered over to the adults' side where I found things I wanted to read. The librarian called my mother (which actually I support - I do think there should be some oversight). But my mom got angry and told the librarian to let me read whatever I wanted.

I also had the brazen habit on contacting experts in things that interested me and asking my questions. I learned a lot, but more than once that has been a source of embarrassment because the people I contacted assumed I was something other than what I was.

I always attended public school too, but I had several good influences in my life who helped me.

Your mother sounds wise in the way she handled your math issue.

 

[keith99]

I don't know about these days, but a lot of "untraditional learning" was frowned upon when I was a child. I got bored with the children's section of the library and wandered over to the adults' side where I found things I wanted to read. The librarian called my mother (which actually I support - I do think there should be some oversight). But my mom got angry and told the librarian to let me read whatever I wanted.

I also had the brazen habit on contacting experts in things that interested me and asking my questions. I learned a lot, but more than once that has been a source of embarrassment because the people I contacted assumed I was something other than what I was.

I always attended public school too, but I had several good influences in my life who helped me.

Your mother sounds wise in the way she handled your math issue.

I did not notice too much resistance to "untraditional learning" growing up. But then in my day it existed as a supplement to traditional learning, not a replacement.