Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[fhansen]

So you deny the word of God written (Ex 4:21, Ro 9:17-18) for the sake of your human view?

Not a good look, right?

Check out Isa 55:8-9.

You should be reading the story of creation. Because my comment about duplicity was in regard to Adam. In regard to Pharaoh, the narrative we have is that both God and Pharaoh hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both/and

 

[Clare73]

In regard to Pharaoh, the narrative we have is that both God and Pharaoh hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both/and

Which does not alter the word of God that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he would disobey and not let the people go.

Which you say is duplicitous. . .and which charge of "duplicity" God addresses in Isa 55:8-9.

 

[fhansen]

Which does not alter the word of God that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he would disobey and not let the people go.

Which you say is duplicitous. . .and which charge of "duplicity" God addresses in Isa 55:8-9.

Sounds more than a bit duplicitous regarding His command that He gave to Adam

 

[RileyG]

I do not.

Ok! Gotcha!

 

[Clare73]

fhansen said:
Sounds more than a bit duplicitous regarding His command that He gave to Adam.

So duplicity is a matter of degree?

 

[fhansen]

So duplicity is a matter of degree?

Not that I know of. Why do you ask? Duplicity means double-minded, deceitful, saying one thing but doing another, etc.

 

[Clare73]

Not that I know of. Why do you ask? Duplicity means double-minded, deceitful, saying one thing but doing another, etc.

In relation to posts #51, #63, where you present degrees of dupicitiousness.

 

[fhansen]

In relation to posts #51, #63.

If God commanded Adam not dot do something, not to sin, and then caused Adam to do it, that would be an instance of duplicity. Nothing about degrees there.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, if God commanded Adam not dot do something, not to sin, and then caused Adam to do it, that would be an instance of duplicity.

And is God's decision, before he gave the command (Ex 4:21), to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he could not obey God's command duplicitous?

 

[fhansen]

And is God duplicitous in hardening Pharoah's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he could not obey God's command?

No, God didn’t command Pharoah to let the people go. He simply exploited Pharaoh's already selfish and hard heart for His greater purposes.

 

[Clare73]

No, God didn’t command Pharoah to let the people go. He simply exploited Pharaoh's already selfish and hard heart for His greater purposes.

So, Moses was lying in Ex 5:1 and Ex 7:16?

 

[fhansen]

So, Moses was lying in Ex 5:1 and Ex 7:16?

Of course not. But we’re talking apples and oranges here. Adam was still in direct communication with God, who gave him a direct command. Pharoah, who didn’t know or believe in God to begin with, was just hearing from some other guy, a mere human.

 

[Clare73]

Of course not. But we’re talking apples and oranges here. Adam was still in direct communication with God, who gave him a direct command. Pharoah, who didn’t know or believe in God to begin with, was just hearing from some other guy, a mere human.

I'm talking what you call duplicitous, and God's "duplicitousness" in commanding Pharaoh to obey what God had hardened his heart against so that he could not obey. . .which you call duplicitous.
So according to you, God is duplicitous.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Eternal security is a two edged sword. 1. God decreed from before time began those who belong to him and those who do not. and 2. Those who he chose he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son (see Roman's 8:29). 3. Those chosen are not lost but are eternally saved and not Noone not Satan, god or even themselves can take them out of Gods hand (see John 10:28).

The doctrine of predestination and eternal security can be difficult to understand and accept but it is taught all over the bible. I hate to disagree with my catholic friends but... they are biblical.

 

[fhansen]

Who is Pail talking about? Who is us?

That's the question. And to believe that everyone who ever heard those words, which are only meant as words of encouragement and exhortation to begin with, and applied them to themselves, whether they be the first audience who heard them or any of the rest of us down through the centuries, was/is necessarily saved woud not be reasonable, For that matter, the bible speaks of those who thought they were one of God's but were not, and others who didn't know they were His but were.

All with saving faith will persevere.

And we'll know for certain who persevered-who apparently had this "saving faith"- at the end.

All that have saving faith have love so I don’t know what you are arguing about.

If we love, we'll show the fruit of that love-and you know far better than I if you have it. If so, more power to you; you're doing God's will.

The Bible is clear that God pardons sin by His grace based on Christ’s work on the cross alone, not on man’s actions. This is part of our daily prayers asking for forgiveness for our daily sins so Jesus is not referring to God’s initial act of forgiveness (reconciliation) that we experienced when we first believed the Gospel. We pray this prayer daily and daily we forget some of our sins including forgiving someone that did us wrong. God does not go back in His promises.

You seem to accept the carrots and reject any sticks. To the extent that we love, then we will have no problem forgiving others. But with faith and without love we are nothing, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. Jesus didn't say those words in Matt 6 just to fill in space. Again, if you love, if you return the love and mercy that's been shown to you, then you're doing God's will. This begins with faith in Him. His purpose is to produce something in us, something better than He began with, something like Himself, something within whom real truth and justice and righteousness reign, rather than simply to ignore injustice now and allow us to remain in our sins as long as we...believe.

 

[Hentenza]

That's the question. And to believe that everyone who ever heard those words, which are only meant as words of encouragement and exhortation to begin with, and applied them to themselves, whether they be the first audience who heard them or any of the rest of us down through the centuries, was/is necessarily saved woud not be reasonable, For that matter, the bible speaks of those who thought they were one of God's but were not, and others who didn't know they were His but were.

I’m disappointed that you so easily went askew here. My question to you was who was us and all you had to do was look at who is Paul taking to. Here let’s look.

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus

bible.com

His words are directed at the saints who are at Ephesus. The Greek word here is hagios. I‘m sure Paul is not talking about spiritual beings with wings, right?

Saints- ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare G53, H2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Look at the definition of hagios. These are morally blameless and consecrated human beings which are those with saving faith.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world | New American Standard Bible - N

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

bible.com

Chose- ἐκλέγομαι eklégomai, ek-leg'-om-ahee; middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select:—make choice, choose (out), chosen.

Is in the middle voice so the saints that are at Ephesus and Paul are the agent of the action.

Predestined- προορίζω proorízō, pro-or-id'-zo; from G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.

This one is really easy to understand. Again refers to the saints that are at Ephesus and Paul since he includes himself by using ”us”.

“In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first | New American Standard Bible -

In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first

bible.com

Those with saving faith and Paul have obtained an inheritance because of God’s will to the end (not to the middle or almost to the end but to the actual end).

Obtained- κληρόω klēróō, klay-ro'-o; from G2819; to allot, i.e. (figuratively) to assign (a privilege):—obtain an inheritance.

This verb is in the aorist passive so is an action already given and received by the agent.

Now, how many saints (those with saving faith) do you think were at Ephesus? Paul, writing from a Roman prison, intended that all who long for Christlike maturity would receive this writing. Even those with saving faith continue to mature AND cooperate with their Sanctification. But, once again, because they have been already been given the inheritance then their sanctification comes from within salvation not for their salvation. It would be redundant for those with saving faith that have already received their inheritance to have to work for their inheritance, don’t you think?

And we'll know for certain who persevered-who apparently had this "saving faith"- at the end.

Nah. Thats the problem with your church’s faith plus works doctrines. You don’t get to enjoy our Lords rest. Haven’t you heard that His yoke is comfortable and His burden is light?

If we love, we'll show the fruit of that love-and you know far better than I if you have it. If so, more power to you; you're doing God's will.

We do love naturally. Do you love naturally brother? Or do you have to force yourself to love?

You seem to accept the carrots and reject any sticks. To the extent that we love, then we will have no problem forgiving others. But with faith and without love we are nothing, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. Jesus didn't say those words in Matt 6 just to fill in space. Again, if you love, if you return the love and mercy that's been shown to you, then you're doing God's will. This begins with faith in Him. His purpose is to produce something in us, something better than He began with, something like Himself, something within whom real truth and justice and righteousness reign, rather than simply to ignore injustice now and allow us to remain in our sins as long as we...believe.

Do you honestly think that the Paul and the saints who are at Ephesus, who were chosen and already received their inheritance, are going to loose their faith? Do you think that even the saints who are at Ephesus are perfect, love perfectly, forgive perfectly? Do you think that even those with saving faith do not still sin? No one, and I mean no one, in this world, even those with saving faith, are perfect. Glorification will not happen until our eternal state. Look, you cheapen the free gift of God and Jesus sacrifice when you insert works as a requirement for salvation. Christ‘s sacrifice is sufficient. I know you say that it is not the case but when you peel the onion that is what is at the center.

 

[ARBITER01]

I doubt you’ll find in any of the early church teachings: ECFs (with the possible exception of Origen), EO, Catholic, etc anything like the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. It’s quite novel all in all. The early churches understood that man’s will, his cooperation, continues to play its role throughout one’s life in God’s work of salvation.

Correct.

Thank you for actually reading your bible.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I doubt you’ll find in any of the early church teachings: ECFs (with the possible exception of Origen), EO, Catholic, etc anything like the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

It's in Jude, that's where the concept comes from.

The question emerges if "He" is "not able" to "keep us from falling" who then can be saved?

I only posted this because it was claimed that it was not in early church teachings, but it was in the scripture.

That being said, I don't believe that one cannot litigate their way into heaven, or force God to do anything based on a human's limited understanding of the bible.

The core misunderstanding of salvation in many of these debates is a transformed life. When one is saved, they are changed inside. Jesus is indeed able to keep us from falling, if people would just listen to Him instead of people in the church providing justifications to follow Paul instead of Jesus. . . (a dichotomy that shouldn't exist)

Yes, Jesus is able to keep us from falling, and able to completely save us ... but there's something we do also, isn't there? It is our work to trust Him. The righteous afterall live by faith.

 

[fhansen]

It's in Jude, that's where the concept comes from.

The question emerges if "He" is "not able" to "keep us from falling" who then can be saved?

I only posted this because it was claimed that it was not in early church teachings, but it was in the scripture.

That being said, I don't believe that one cannot litigate their way into heaven, or force God to do anything based on a human's limited understanding of the bible.

The core misunderstanding of salvation in many of these debates is a transformed life. When one is saved, they are changed inside. Jesus is indeed able to keep us from falling, if people would just listen to Him instead of people in the church providing justifications to follow Paul instead of Jesus. . . (a dichotomy that shouldn't exist)

Yes, Jesus is able to keep us from falling, and able to completely save us ... but there's something we do also, isn't there? It is our work to trust Him. The righteous afterall live by faith.

Yes! It's our job to remain in Him, to do our part in staying connected to the Vine, picking up our cross ansd following daily. From there, good fruit will be produced. If not, then sumpthin's wrong with that connection. Either way, God's not in the business of produing Christian automatons. We must respond to His grace-and continue to do so.

 

[fhansen]

I’m disappointed that you so easily went askew here. My question to you was who was us and all you had to do was look at who is Paul taking to. Here let’s look.

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus

bible.com

His words are directed at the saints who are at Ephesus. The Greek word here is hagios. I‘m sure Paul is not talking about spiritual beings with wings, right?

Saints- ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare G53, H2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Look at the definition of hagios. These are morally blameless and consecrated human beings which are those with saving faith.

Paul knew well that he could not identify any specific person as being delfintivel;y numbered among the elect. In Phil 3 He even said that he had not yet attained to the ressurection but was strivng towards that end.

Nah. Thats the problem with your church’s faith plus works doctrines. You don’t get to enjoy our Lords rest. Haven’t you heard that His yoke is comfortable and His burden is light?

We think His burden is light. You speak as if it's non-existent. And our's isn't faith plus works of the law. It's faith plus good fruit, works of grace, good works that we were created in Chrsit Jesus to do, that God prepared in advance, works that are done not out of a sense of ovbligation but out of the love that's been poured into our hearts Rom 5:5. "...faith working though love" Gal 5:6

We do love naturally. Do you love naturally brother? Or do you have to force yourself to love?

Depends on what you mean. Often love can be a hard chocie, involving self-sacrifice. And God's after more than just natural love, of course, but after a love that only he can produce in us.
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:46-48

Do you honestly think that the Paul and the saints who are at Ephesus, who were chosen and already received their inheritance, are going to loose their faith? Do you think that even the saints who are at Ephesus are perfect, love perfectly, forgive perfectly? Do you think that even those with saving faith do not still sin? No one, and I mean no one, in this world, even those with saving faith, are perfect.

Getting back to the last part of Matt 5 quoted above: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

If we're not on that road, that Way, that "jourrney to perfection" as it's been called; if we aren't closer to perfection, perfection in love to put it best, by virtue of our encounter and union with God than we were say, 5 or 10 years ago, then we should really question whether or not we're one of His.