Help on understanding the Trinity..

[BornAgainChristian1]

It can be inferred that most of the new converts through Peter and the others were Jews, because there was a bit of fuss concerning Paul's inclusion of gentiles later. Paul, in fact, has to press the fact that gentiles were meant to be included, while others thought it was only for Jews.

Agreed because at that time the Jews were marrying the gentiles and also joining in with the gentiles pagan worship of false gods. It could be said the Jews were as Gentile as the Gentles were.

 

[AFrazier]

Ummm, the "son" in the person of Jesus Christ, the human man, was a begotten son. He was conceived, gestated, and born. But Jesus Christ, the Word of God, was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and nothing was made that was made except that he made it.

 

[AFrazier]

Agreed because at that time the Jews were marrying the gentiles and also joining in with the gentiles pagan worship of false gods. It could be said the Jews were as Gentile as the Gentles were.

Their intercultural marital status I can't make any educated statement about. That information is not available.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ummm, the "son" in the person of Jesus Christ, the human man, was a begotten son. He was conceived, gestated, and born. But Jesus Christ, the Word of God, was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and nothing was made that was made except that he made it.

As the Son He was begotten of the Father from all eternity.
He was then made flesh--incarnate--in the womb of the Virgin Mary and born.

His generation from the Father is from all eternity; His birth from Mary was in time. He is called the Son of God because He is God, the only-begotten of the Father from all eternity. He is a man because He united Himself with our human nature in the womb of Mary.

Thus He is both God and man, the God-Man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Agreed because at that time the Jews were marrying the gentiles and also joining in with the gentiles pagan worship of false gods. It could be said the Jews were as Gentile as the Gentles were.

For having berated others for making an assumption you certainly don't seem to have any problem making your own.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Their intercultural marital status I can't make any educated statement about. That information is not available.

Really because it's found all throughout the OT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you don't like the answer that scripture states then your argument is with God. Your opinion on the matter won't change what scripture states. So in essence how does your 50+ pages of opinion based assumption change what's in God's word?

http://biblereasons.com/defending-yourself/

Please read thru the pages. My defense is not my opinion but it is Scripture. If you don't want to look at the verses that speak the truth on this matter, then that is your choice. As for the link you provided: I will create another thread here at CF on New Testament Pacifism soon and answer the verses at that website.

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[StanJ]

The physical state of matter is a result, largely of heat and pressure; condensed, slow atoms or molecules are typically what we call a solid, whereas atoms/molecules which are more agitated and have more space between them are what we typically call a gas. That hundred molecules of water cannot exist simultaneously in all three states, you can have some molecules at different states, and you can under the right conditions create the triple point for water, but even at the triple point it isn't really a simultaneous existence of the three states shared among the same molecules.

And the analogy was of two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen which do exist simultaneously in nature. Why do you have to have to criticize everybody's analogy when they're just trying to help someone understand? Have you ever heard the old saying, 'too smart for his own good'?

The traditional language is "begotten of the Father before all ages" (τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων), it means there was never a time that the Son came to be, the Son always is. The Son is eternally begotten, or eternally generated. It means the Son's Origin is eternal (the Father) and therefore the Son is Himself eternal because He has His eternity from His Origin, and He has His Deity from His Origin, He is therefore God of God; He is what His Father is--the one and only true God And He is therefore homoousios with the Father, of the same being with the Father.

I know what it means and what it implies, I'm asking YOU how Jesus was born after he was already born? In other words, exegete it from scripture, don't give me some traditional view, because as you know well enough, I'm not a real big fan of tradition no matter whose it is. I'm more interested in how God is actually communicating with people through his word by their understanding, than what men of history have said.
Where does the Bible tells us that Jesus is the Christ was always existing? Even John 1:14 says that the word became flesh. The word was not the son and you can't actually be begotten if you've never been begotten. The ONLY BEGOTTEN son of God was physically born as the Word made flesh or the Word incarnate in Jesus. Matthew 1:20 says He was conceived from the Holy Spirit. That is when Jesus was begotten. Remember, Jesus was/is a hypostasis of God and man. That hypostasis did not always exist.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

For having berated others for making an assumption you certainly don't seem to have any problem making your own.

-CryptoLutheran

Apparently you're not familiar with the OT either otherwise you wouldn't be so thin skinned.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Please read thru the pages. My defense is not my opinion but it is Scripture. If you don't want to look at the verses that speak the truth on this matter, then that is your choice. As for the link you provided: I will create another thread here at CF on New Testament Pacifism soon and answer the verses at that website.

...

But then again I presented scripture that disagrees with your assumption. The Jews carried weapons for self defense while traveling just as we do. You're welcome to be a pacifist but as for me I will protect my family from all that would do harm to them and be perfectly justified. If you strongly believe in pacifism and believe it is supported by the bible then post a sign on your lawn stating that fact and get back to me on how that works out for you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But then again I presented scripture that disagrees with your assumption. The Jews carried weapons for self defense while traveling just as we do. You're welcome to be a pacifist but as for me I will protect my family from all that would do harm to them and be perfectly justified. If you strongly believe in pacifism and believe it is supported by the bible then post a sign on your lawn stating that fact and get back to me on how that works out for you?

What Christian places their statement of faith on their lawn? Does God tell us to do such things? Jesus told us to be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents. It would also seem like one is tempting the Lord their God by doing such a thing, no? You know, sort of like jumping in a glass tank of sharks with chum in it just to show off to your church that God is your protector?

Even Paul said he had to feed the Corinthians with a message of milk because they were not able to accept the message of meat that he had for them. Even Jesus Himself had not revealed all things right away to his disciples. In fact, it was after Christ's resurrection that they began to understand the things He said during His Earthly ministry before the cross. Most of the time, people misunderstood Jesus because they thought he was talking about physical things, when in reality He was talking about spiritual things.


...

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes I agree try keeping up when you make a blanket statement. http://www.ajewishbeliever.com/2012/04/feeding-5000-and-4000-what-is.html

Hi BAC1, your article makes some interesting points about the 4,000, but it is, of course, conjecture. Looking at the things we "know" from Scripture however (because they are taught didactically and explicitly), presents a problem, at least for me, with your article's conclusion (IOW, that the 4,000 were Gentiles, not Jews).

I'll post an excerpt from, Matthew 15, below which includes BOTH Jesus' feeding of the 4,000, and His teaching that He was "sent to the lost sheep of Israel ONLY". There may have been a few additional "dogs" in the crowds of both 4 & 5,000 who fed on the "crumbs that fell from their master's table", but to say that the 4,000 were Gentiles seems to nullify what the Lord just finished teaching us several verses earlier (i.e. Matthew 15:24)!!

It is also difficult enough for me to believe that the Apostles missed what the Lord was trying to teach them about the Gentiles and the "nations" in Matthew 28:19 and in Acts 1:8 (right before He ascended), but they did (until the Lord finally made it clear to Peter that salvation was going to be extended to the Gentiles in a dream in Acts 10). Surely if the Lord had been openly ministering to groups of 1,000's of Gentiles while He walked among us (with the Apostles in tow), the fact that the Gentiles were to be included could not have been lost on them.

Here is the promised passage (which, again, includes the clear teaching that Jesus was sent to Israel only, followed quickly by the feeding of the 4,000). If what you (and the article you posited) say is true about the 4,000 being Gentiles, what are we to make of Jesus' teaching in Matthew 15:24

The Syrophoenician Woman

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”
27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Healing Crowds

29 Departing from there, Jesus went along by the Sea of Galilee, and having gone up on the mountain, He was sitting there.
30 And large crowds came to Him, bringing with them those who were lame, crippled, blind, mute, and many others, and they laid them down at His feet; and He healed them.
31 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.

Four Thousand Fed

32 And Jesus called His disciples to Him, and said, “I feel compassion for the people, because they have remained with Me now three days and have nothing to eat; and I do not want to send them away hungry, for they might faint on the way.”
33 The disciples said to Him, “Where would we get so many loaves in this desolate place to satisfy such a large crowd?”
34 And Jesus said to them, “How many loaves do you have?” And they said, “Seven, and a few small fish.”
35 And He directed the people to sit down on the ground;
36 and He took the seven loaves and the fish; and giving thanks, He broke them and started giving them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people.
37 And they all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up what was left over of the broken pieces, seven large baskets full.
38 And those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children.
39 And sending away the crowds, Jesus got into the boat and came to the region of Magadan. ~Matthew 15​

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What Christian places their statement of faith on their lawn? Does God tell us to do such things? Jesus told us to be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents. It would also seem like one is tempting the Lord their God by doing such a thing, no? You know, sort of like jumping in a glass tank of sharks with chum in it just to show off to your church that God is your protector?

Even Paul said he had to feed the Corinthians with a message of milk because they were not able to accept the message of meat that he had for them. Even Jesus Himself had not revealed all things right away to his disciples. In fact, it was after Christ's resurrection that they began to understand the things He said during His Earthly ministry before the cross. Most of the time, people misunderstood Jesus because they thought he was talking about physical things, when in reality He was talking about spiritual things.


...

Then apparently you faith is weak not to let the world know of your stand. I have no problem letting people know I'm a Christian and have absolutely no shame in it. BTW what would you do if your and your family were being attacked and faced possible death?

 

[St_Worm2]

And the analogy was of two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen which do exist simultaneously in nature. Why do you have to have to criticize everybody's analogy when they're just trying to help someone understand? Have you ever heard the old saying, 'too smart for his own good'?

Hi Stan, I think I can answer that (at least this is the reason I would give). The water/ice/steam analogy is useful at times when people are first struggling to imagine how "One" could also be "Three". In the end however, it teaches modalism, not the doctrine of the Trinity (which is problematic). I still use it at times, but I always stress that while it is a useful analogy in some ways, it's still a bad analogy that can make it difficult to understand what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us about the true nature of the Godhead.

You continue:

John 1:14 says that the word became flesh. The word was not the son....

John 1:1-2 says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ​

If Jesus was not the "Word", who (or what) was

Thanks!

--David

"Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You
before the world was"
John 17:5

​

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Hi BAC1, your article makes some interesting points about the 4,000, but it is, of course, conjecture. Looking at the things we "know" from Scripture however (because they are taught didactically and explicitly), presents a problem, at least for me, with your article's conclusion (IOW, that the 4,000 were Gentiles, not Jews).

I'll post an excerpt from, Matthew 15, below which includes BOTH Jesus' the feeding of the 4,000 and His teaching that He was "sent to the lost sheep of Israel ONLY"). There may have been a few additional "dogs" in the crowds of both 4 & 5,000 who fed on the "crumbs that fell from their master's table", but to say that the 4,000 were Gentiles seems to nullify what the Lord just finished teaching us several verses earlier (i.e. Matthew 15:24)!!

It is also difficult enough for me to believe that the Apostles missed what the Lord was trying to teach them about the Gentiles and the "nations" in Matthew 28:19 and in Acts 1:8 (right before He ascended), but they did (until the Lord finally made it clear to Peter that salvation was going to be extended to the Gentiles in a dream in Acts 10). Surely if the Lord had been openly ministering to groups of 1,000's of Gentiles while He was among us, the fact that the Gentiles were to be included would not have been lost on them.

Here is the promised passage (which, again, includes the clear teaching that Jesus was sent to Israel only, followed quickly by the feeding of the 4,000). If what you (and the article you posited) say is true about the 4,000 being Gentiles, what are we to make of Jesus' teaching in Matthew 15:24

The Syrophoenician Woman

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”
27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Healing Crowds

29 Departing from there, Jesus went along by the Sea of Galilee, and having gone up on the mountain, He was sitting there.
30 And large crowds came to Him, bringing with them those who were lame, crippled, blind, mute, and many others, and they laid them down at His feet; and He healed them.
31 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.

Four Thousand Fed

32 And Jesus called His disciples to Him, and said, “I feel compassion for the people, because they have remained with Me now three days and have nothing to eat; and I do not want to send them away hungry, for they might faint on the way.”
33 The disciples said to Him, “Where would we get so many loaves in this desolate place to satisfy such a large crowd?”
34 And Jesus said to them, “How many loaves do you have?” And they said, “Seven, and a few small fish.”
35 And He directed the people to sit down on the ground;
36 and He took the seven loaves and the fish; and giving thanks, He broke them and started giving them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people.
37 And they all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up what was left over of the broken pieces, seven large baskets full.
38 And those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children.
39 And sending away the crowds, Jesus got into the boat and came to the region of Magadan. ~Matthew 15​

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

The problem is all of the churches established were Gentile churches so again all throughout the old testament there were always Gentiles living among the Jews even though God instructed the Jews to remove all non-Jews from the promised land. So all throughout the Jews history they allowed the Gentiles to live among them is great numbers and fell into their pagan god worship again and again and again. So just on what the Jews did throughout their history there were always many Gentiles living among them.

Matt 15:
Matthew 15:30-321599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them, halt, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down, at Jesus’ feet, and he healed them.

31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, to see the dumb speak, the maimed whole, the halt to go, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

32 Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on this multitude, because they have continued with me already three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not let them depart fasting, lest they faint in the way.

Who is "THEY" if it meant the Jews wouldn't t say and they glorified God? Because after all they were in Israel and KNEW who God was? To be honest "Christians" are the "they" of today and therefore we worship the God of Israel not the God that Israel now worships because that god has no son.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What Christian places their statement of faith on their lawn? Does God tell us to do such things? Jesus told us to be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents. It would also seem like one is tempting the Lord their God by doing such a thing, no? You know, sort of like jumping in a glass tank of sharks with chum in it just to show off to your church that God is your protector?

Even Paul said he had to feed the Corinthians with a message of milk because they were not able to accept the message of meat that he had for them. Even Jesus Himself had not revealed all things right away to his disciples. In fact, it was after Christ's resurrection that they began to understand the things He said during His Earthly ministry before the cross. Most of the time, people misunderstood Jesus because they thought he was talking about physical things, when in reality He was talking about spiritual things.


...

BTW I said to post a sign you were a PACIFIST nothing more and nothing less.

 

[St_Worm2]

The problem is all of the churches established were Gentile churches so again all throughout the old testament there were always Gentiles living among the Jews even though God instructed the Jews to remove all non-Jews from the promised land. So all throughout the Jews history they allowed the Gentiles to live among them is great numbers and fell into their pagan god worship again and again and again. So just on what the Jews did throughout their history there were always many Gentiles living among them.

Hi BAC, I understand that the Jews were not isolated from the Gentiles, but the Lord teaches us explicitly that He was sent to minister to the lost sheep of Israel only. So again, if what you believe is true about the 4,000 being Gentiles, why do you believe He taught us what He did (just a few verses earlier in Matthew 15:24)?

IOW, how do you reconcile what the Lord teaches us about the scope of His earthly ministry (Israel ONLY) with what you believe about the 4,000?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Bryce Harris]

The fundamental problem with this analogy is that it amounts to Modalism.

H2O can be expressed in three states--a solid, a liquid, and a gas. This is not analogous to three Hypostases or Persons sharing together in the one Essence; but is analogous to God as a single agent expressing Himself through three masks or faces.

Water does not exist simultaneously as a gas and a solid, for example; that is the same molecules will not simultaneously be a gas as well as a solid. Whereas the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist simultaneously--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit love one another, there is a conversation that can exist when Jesus prays to the Father and the Father says "Here is My beloved Son"; Jesus can point beyond Himself to the Father who sent Him, and speak of the Holy Spirit as "another comforter" that He will send, who comes from the Father.

Jesus is not talking to Himself, God the Son is speaking to God the Father, God the Father is speaking to God the Son; God the Father and God the Son send God the Holy Spirit. God relates to God, God is with God, God sends God.

This is a monumental difference.

"We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and we look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."

-CryptoLutheran

Yeah i see what your saying, good point.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Hi BAC, I understand that the Jews were not isolated from the Gentiles, but the Lord teaches us explicitly that He was sent to minister to the lost sheep of Israel only. So again, if what you believe is true about the 4,000 being Gentiles, why do you believe He taught us what He did (just a few verses earlier in Matthew 15:24)?

IOW, how do you reconcile what the Lord teaches us about the scope of His earthly ministry (Israel ONLY) with what you believe about the 4,000?

Thanks!

--David

Yes Christ was to preach to His lost sheep which is all of us after all we're all descendants of Adam.

John 10:161599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
16 Other sheep I have also, which are not of this fold: them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice: and there shall be one sheepfold, and one shepherd.

 

[StanJ]

Hi Stan, I think I can answer that (at least this is the reason I would give). The water/ice/steam analogy is useful at times when people are first struggling to imagine how "One" could also be "Three". In the end however, it teaches modalism, not the doctrine of the Trinity (which is problematic). I still use it at times, but I always stress that while it is a useful analogy in some ways, it's still a bad analogy that can make it difficult to understand what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us about the true nature of the Godhead.

Hi David...so nice to have civil responses.
I actually wasn't making an analogy of water/ice/steam, I was confirming someone else who use the analogy of H2O. In any event it was for somebody who is trying to understand the basics and those type of analogies such as a cube or whatever, can help those not conversant with this issue, to understand it. As we grow older and more mature, our understanding of God becomes more refined and processed in that regard, which is how we as humans learn. The cube analogy has always been my favorite but in actuality I've never had a really hard time understanding the train your nature of God. Maybe because I was brought up Roman Catholic, I don't know, but as I have been saved now for over 45 years and have had a chance to study this issue among many others in the Bible, I have no problem with it.

John 1:1-2 says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.​

If Jesus was not the "Word", who (or what) was
Thanks!

Yes, John also said in verse 14 that the word became flesh and that means that the word was incarnated in Jesus. Now when Jesus speaks with other references such as "before Abraham was, I am', he is speaking as the Word, not speaking as Jesus. IMO, it's not really that hard to understand when scripture depicts Jesus speaking as opposed to the Word speaking. Like everything else, it has to do with context, but also with the Holy Spirit in us recognizing God in the words written. With Jesus, it was probably seamless but for us mere mortals it takes a bit of understanding and the Holy Spirit to recognize it.