Help on understanding the Trinity..

[BornAgainChristian1]

I have discussed Biblical Pacifism at great length with Scripture on two other Christian forums before.

As for the meaning behind Jesus telling his diciples to buy a sword: Well, if you are looking for an explantation with Scripture, please check out the article I quoted in my post here.

As for a 50 + page discussion on Biblcial Pacifism, you can see my many replies with Scripture against those who believe otherwise in this other thread here.

I hope it helps.
And may God bless you.


...

If you don't like the answer that scripture states then your argument is with God. Your opinion on the matter won't change what scripture states. So in essence how does your 50+ pages of opinion based assumption change what's in God's word?

http://biblereasons.com/defending-yourself/

 

[St_Worm2]

I've read these all before, but I have to say that this is a very nice collection of baptism quotes. You might also add one from Justin Martyr. He makes mention also of the fasting beforehand, and that the Eucharist was taken afterwards. But he adds that when the Eucharist is partaken of, portions are taken to those who are absent, so that the body could partake together if at all possible. See Just. Mart. Apol. 1 61, 65.

Thanks, Martyr has been added to the original list here (though the quote I found of his simply talks about baptism, not the Eucharist).

I also added Irenaeus for good measure

 

[dqhall]

Yes Jesus told the Jews the Kingdom was at hand but they rejected Him as their predicted Messiah and therefore instructed the Apostles to the preach the same gospel to the Gentles whereas we believed and the Jews still don't believe who Jesus is.

Jesus was Jewish, the apostles were Jewish, the crowds that assembled to listen to Jesus were Jewish. Paul's ministry was reliant on him visiting synagogues and preaching there. He wrote about not needing circumcision, but had Timothy circumcised. To this day there are Jewish believers. I am not so naive as to think just because one attends church one is a believer. Some say Jesus paid the price and they can be justified without works. What faith produces no good works? The murder rate in Israel is lower than the murder rate in the USA. Who is a believer? One may not go as far as Muslim Africa to find unbelievers. You might find them on the streets of your own community.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is the name of God, that your Church baptizes in?

Presbyterians baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit; the same as every other Christian church.

What about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

That happened on Pentecost two thousand years ago.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Jesus was Jewish, the apostles were Jewish, the crowds that assembled to listen to Jesus were Jewish. Paul's ministry was reliant on him visiting synagogues and preaching there. He wrote about not needing circumcision, but had Timothy circumcised. To this day there are Jewish believers. I am not so naive as to think just because one attends church one is a believer. Some say Jesus paid the price and they can be justified without works. What faith produces no good works? The murder rate in Israel is lower than the murder rate in the USA. Who is a believer? One may not go as far as Muslim Africa to find unbelievers. You might find them on the streets of your own community.

So when Jesus taught the 5,000 and the 4,000 they were all Jews? Please quote the scripture where it states that? Yes there are Jewish believers but the Jews as a nation rejected Christ and the bible states that fact. Really they have a low murder rate then why are they in the news every other week with a muslim act of terrorism? BTW Israel is no where the size of the USA which is why their murder rate is so low. And most of the murders in the USA happen in democrat controlled cities and mass murders in gun free zones the democrats instated.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So when Jesus taught the 5,000 and the 4,000 they were all Jews? Please quote the scripture where it states that? Yes there are Jewish believers but the Jews as a nation rejected Christ and the bible states that fact. Really they why are they in the news every other week with a muslim act of terrorism? BTW Israel it no where the size of the USA which is why their murder rate is so low. And most of the murders in the USA happen in democrat controlled cities and mass murders gun free zones.

The Gospels seem to make a point when Jesus interacts with a Gentile or a Samaritan; it seems pretty safe to assume that the majority that Jesus spoke to were Jews seeing as Jesus' ministry was restricted predominantly to the provinces of Galilee and Judea. The Syrio-Phoenician woman is a classic example of Jesus interacting with a Gentile; when Jesus interacts with the centurion it would seem that, though a Gentile, he was among the God-fearers: proselytes who had not yet formally converted to Judaism but who worshiped the God of Israel and who were restricted to the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple in Jerusalem.

Following Pentecost the Apostles preached the Gospel first in Jerusalem and Judea, and also to the Samaritans--the idea that uncircumcised Gentiles were to be part of the Church required a rather sign from God in the form of St. Peter's vision and later visit to the house of Cornelius--where the events which had transpired on Pentecost were repeated again, which Peter used as a testimony of God's full acceptance of the uncircumcised; and then the calling of Paul (Saul) to be made apostle to the Gentiles furthers that point. These things reached a climax at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in the 15th chapter of the Acts where the Jerusalem leadership convened and sided with Peter and Paul: the Gospel was for the Gentiles just as much as it was for the Jews, the Gospel is for both circumcised and uncircumcised, Jew and Gentile, without distinction.

Read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, it can get no more clear than in that letter in which he addresses the universal problem of sin for both those who had received the Torah and those who had not received the Torah, and that both Jew and Gentile alike by faith in Jesus the Messiah are reconciled to God through their faith, freely justified. Then we can move on to Galatians and Ephesians, where Paul makes it clear that from two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) God has made one new people, united together in Christ; and that therefore there is no distinction whether "Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, you are all one in Christ Jesus" and to which the Apostle will say "neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision anything"

The Gentiles have become the wild branches grafted onto the olive tree, the tree is Israel. So that Jew and Gentile, together, in Christ have become the heirs and children of Abraham by faith--for Jesus Christ is Abraham's Seed--and so the promises given to Abraham have been fulfilled, that he would be the father of many nations.

The kingdom of God has come and spread across the world, by the death and resurrection of the Son of God; and we look forward to the fullness of that kingdom at Christ's coming in glory to judge the living and the dead, at the resurrection of the body, when God renews and restores all things, and there is life everlasting in the age to come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[St_Worm2]

So when Jesus taught the 5,000 and the 4,000 they were all Jews? Please quote the scripture where it states that?

I'm fairly certain the nationality of the 5,000 and the 4,000 is not mentioned, but we do know this:

Jesus answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ~Matt 15:24​

As ViaCrucis just stated, the Apostles were dispatched to the Nations after He was gone, which was a command from the Lord that I believe we first see in Matthew 28:19 & Acts 1:8, prior to His Ascension.

--David

 

[civilwarbuff]

So when Jesus taught the 5,000 and the 4,000 they were all Jews? Please quote the scripture where it states that?

Matthew 15:24

 

[StanJ]

I'm not "throwing it around" to be nasty, simply stating a fact. The position that the poster stated is a classic trinitarian heresy. I did not, however, accuse them of being a "heretic". A many others have rightfully pointed out, heretical statements can be made in complete innocence, either because of ignorance, unintended misuse of words, or something else along those lines. Others, of course, can make heretical statements in complete awareness of what they are doing. I'm not in the business of analyzing people's motivations...that is why I stuck to the choice of words I did, a choice of words which, on the very definition of historical trinitarian heresies, cannot be refuted.

Not only did you throw it out there, you deliberately threw it. Of course I'm not surprised because many people who are inculcated into their own personal Dogma, use that word a lot and then start backpedaling when people call them on it. This Thread is not, nor did it start as a discussion on the traditional or so-called traditional View of the Trinity. It was request to help the OP understand the traditional nature of our triune God.
Of course some people are more interested in trying to show off, like the Pharisees used to do, rather than help when help is asked for.

 

[StanJ]

But the former phrasing allows grace for the person making the statement. Again, what they are saying--while heretical in content--may be completely innocent, either because of their ignorance of the topic in general, a poor choice of words or slip of the tongue, or some other foible of communication. This is completely different from a person who "speaks heresy", which (at least in my mind) at least suggests some intention and informed motivation.

And yet you took no time to actually address it, you just threw out the accusation, without proving it was heretical. I guess that pretty much shows you really don't have a comprehension of the Trinity, at least not a sound one.

 

[Bryce Harris]

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

How i explain the Trinity is it's like Water. Water is in three forms such as ice, liquid, and vapor but it's all water. it's the same thing with God. God is one manifested into three persons God the Father God the son and God the Holy Ghost. Yes the word itself is not in the word of God but in many instances it has been mention like when Jesus said "I and the Father are one." or when Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The Gospels seem to make a point when Jesus interacts with a Gentile or a Samaritan; it seems pretty safe to assume that the majority that Jesus spoke to were Jews seeing as Jesus' ministry was restricted predominantly to the provinces of Galilee and Judea. The Syrio-Phoenician woman is a classic example of Jesus interacting with a Gentile; when Jesus interacts with the centurion it would seem that, though a Gentile, he was among the God-fearers: proselytes who had not yet formally converted to Judaism but who worshiped the God of Israel and who were restricted to the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple in Jerusalem.

Following Pentecost the Apostles preached the Gospel first in Jerusalem and Judea, and also to the Samaritans--the idea that uncircumcised Gentiles were to be part of the Church required a rather sign from God in the form of St. Peter's vision and later visit to the house of Cornelius--where the events which had transpired on Pentecost were repeated again, which Peter used as a testimony of God's full acceptance of the uncircumcised; and then the calling of Paul (Saul) to be made apostle to the Gentiles furthers that point. These things reached a climax at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in the 15th chapter of the Acts where the Jerusalem leadership convened and sided with Peter and Paul: the Gospel was for the Gentiles just as much as it was for the Jews, the Gospel is for both circumcised and uncircumcised, Jew and Gentile, without distinction.

Read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, it can get no more clear than in that letter in which he addresses the universal problem of sin for both those who had received the Torah and those who had not received the Torah, and that both Jew and Gentile alike by faith in Jesus the Messiah are reconciled to God through their faith, freely justified. Then we can move on to Galatians and Ephesians, where Paul makes it clear that from two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) God has made one new people, united together in Christ; and that therefore there is no distinction whether "Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, you are all one in Christ Jesus" and to which the Apostle will say "neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision anything"

The Gentiles have become the wild branches grafted onto the olive tree, the tree is Israel. So that Jew and Gentile, together, in Christ have become the heirs and children of Abraham by faith--for Jesus Christ is Abraham's Seed--and so the promises given to Abraham have been fulfilled, that he would be the father of many nations.

The kingdom of God has come and spread across the world, by the death and resurrection of the Son of God; and we look forward to the fullness of that kingdom at Christ's coming in glory to judge the living and the dead, at the resurrection of the body, when God renews and restores all things, and there is life everlasting in the age to come.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes assuming things that just aren't stated in the bible seems to be a problem with a lot of Christians. You're opinion is noted and rejected because you assumed something and then gave a dissertation on assumption.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I'm fairly certain the nationality of the 5,000 and the 4,000 is not mentioned, but we do know this:

Jesus answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ~Matt 15:24​

As ViaCrucis just stated, the Apostles were dispatched to the Nations after He was gone, which was a command from the Lord that I believe we first see in Matthew 28:19 & Acts 1:8, prior to His Ascension.

--David

Yes many make assumptions that are wrong but to show that Jesus instructed the Apostles to preach His word to ALL the world......

Matthew 28:18-201599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
18 And Jesus came, and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me, in heaven, and in earth.
19 Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the holy Ghost,
20 Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, until the end of the world, Amen.

And knowing it was the Jews that demanded Christ be crucified is just all the proof that the nation of Israel rejected Him.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Matthew 15:24

Matt 28:18 -20

 

[civilwarbuff]

Matt 28:18 -20

That was just before he ascended to Heaven. We are discussing earlier in the ministry.....try to keep up.......

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

That was just before he ascended to Heaven. We are discussing earlier in the ministry.....try to keep up.......

Yes I agree try keeping up when you make a blanket statement. http://www.ajewishbeliever.com/2012/04/feeding-5000-and-4000-what-is.html

 

[AFrazier]

So when Jesus taught the 5,000 and the 4,000 they were all Jews? Please quote the scripture where it states that? Yes there are Jewish believers but the Jews as a nation rejected Christ and the bible states that fact. Really they have a low murder rate then why are they in the news every other week with a muslim act of terrorism? BTW Israel is no where the size of the USA which is why their murder rate is so low. And most of the murders in the USA happen in democrat controlled cities and mass murders in gun free zones the democrats instated.

It can be inferred that most of the new converts through Peter and the others were Jews, because there was a bit of fuss concerning Paul's inclusion of gentiles later. Paul, in fact, has to press the fact that gentiles were meant to be included, while others thought it was only for Jews.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How i explain the Trinity is it's like Water. Water is in three forms such as ice, liquid, and vapor but it's all water. it's the same thing with God. God is one manifested into three persons God the Father God the son and God the Holy Ghost. Yes the word itself is not in the word of God but in many instances it has been mention like when Jesus said "I and the Father are one." or when Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God.

The fundamental problem with this analogy is that it amounts to Modalism.

H2O can be expressed in three states--a solid, a liquid, and a gas. This is not analogous to three Hypostases or Persons sharing together in the one Essence; but is analogous to God as a single agent expressing Himself through three masks or faces.

Water does not exist simultaneously as a gas and a solid, for example; that is the same molecules will not simultaneously be a gas as well as a solid. Whereas the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist simultaneously--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit love one another, there is a conversation that can exist when Jesus prays to the Father and the Father says "Here is My beloved Son"; Jesus can point beyond Himself to the Father who sent Him, and speak of the Holy Spirit as "another comforter" that He will send, who comes from the Father.

Jesus is not talking to Himself, God the Son is speaking to God the Father, God the Father is speaking to God the Son; God the Father and God the Son send God the Holy Spirit. God relates to God, God is with God, God sends God.

This is a monumental difference.

"We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and we look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[StanJ]

The fundamental problem with this analogy is that it amounts to Modalism.
H2O can be expressed in three states--a solid, a liquid, and a gas. This is not analogous to three Hypostases or Persons sharing together in the one Essence; but is analogous to God as a single agent expressing Himself through three masks or faces.

Water does not exist simultaneously as a gas and a solid, for example; that is the same molecules will not simultaneously be a gas as well as a solid. Whereas the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit exist simultaneously--the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit love one another, there is a conversation that can exist when Jesus prays to the Father and the Father says "Here is My beloved Son"; Jesus can point beyond Himself to the Father who sent Him, and speak of the Holy Spirit as "another comforter" that He will send, who comes from the Father.

Jesus is not talking to Himself, God the Son is speaking to God the Father, God the Father is speaking to God the Son; God the Father and God the Son send God the Holy Spirit. God relates to God, God is with God, God sends God.

This is a monumental difference.

"We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and we look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."
-CryptoLutheran

Seeing as H2O is the molecular formula of water, it exists in any state and simultaneuosly.
How exactly was Jesus "born of the father before all ages"?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Seeing as H2O is the molecular formulaOf water, it exists in any state and simultaneuosly.

The physical state of matter is a result, largely of heat and pressure; condensed, slow atoms or molecules are typically what we call a solid, whereas atoms/molecules which are more agitated and have more space between them are what we typically call a gas. That hundred molecules of water cannot exist simultaneously in all three states, you can have some molecules at different states, and you can under the right conditions create the triple point for water, but even at the triple point it isn't really a simultaneous existence of the three states shared among the same molecules.

How exactly was Jesus "born of the father before all ages"?

The traditional language is "begotten of the Father before all ages" (τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων), it means there was never a time that the Son came to be, the Son always is. The Son is eternally begotten, or eternally generated. It means the Son's Origin is eternal (the Father) and therefore the Son is Himself eternal because He has His eternity from His Origin, and He has His Deity from His Origin, He is therefore God of God; He is what His Father is--the one and only true God And He is therefore homoousios with the Father, of the same being with the Father.

-CryptoLutheran