Help on understanding the Trinity..

[The Bunny Rabbit]

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So how does that even make sense at all?

I think the best way to learn the truth, and perhaps the ONLY way, is the same way Jesus said Peter learned the Truth that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the Living God.
Remember Jesus told him, Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah , because

flesh and blood has not revealed this to you,

but rather , My Father in heaven has made it known to you.

With this, and many other of His Instructions, Jesus made it clear how we may know the Truth, and the Truth would (does) set us free. (IF we are willing).

 

[StanJ]

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

Well if you believe in the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, then you believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is one God in three manifestations. Rudimentally it's like a cube. A cube is one but has three dimensions, of ciurse God is a little more complex than that but that's basically it. God is a Triune being just as we are Triune beings. We are Body, Soul and Spirit and made in God's image. Hope this helps.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Trinity

 

[Emmy]

Dear Christian Girl. I like to think of the Trinity as one great cloud: God Father, God Son, and Holy Ghost. They are always around us. When necessary Jesus became Man and lived with us, He was God-Son and lived with us for more than 30years. Jesus showed us the right way and taught us many things. In the end Jesus died that we might live,
Jesus paid for all our sins and transgressions and made it possible to return to God our Heavenly Father. When Jesus left the Earth, the Holy Spirit was there to help and guide us, and He still is with us.
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." That is what God wants us to have learned, and to do all our lives. We have to give up all selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring, be kind and considerate. That is as I like to see the Holy Trinity, " Love God and love each other," the Holy Trinity will help and guide us:
GOD-FATHER, GOD-SON-and GOD HOLY SPIRIT. I say this with love, Christian Girl. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Well if you believe in the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, then you believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is one God in three manifestations. Rudimentally it's like a cube. A cube is one but has three dimensions, of ciurse God is a little more complex than that but that's basically it. God is a Triune being just as we are Triune beings. We are Body, Soul and Spirit and made in God's image. Hope this helps.

What you have described is a heretical view of the Trinity. God does not have 3 "manifestations", as if father-ness, son-ness and spirit-ness are simply "aspects" of God, or "ways of being" for God. No, the Trinity is the mystery of the consubstantiality of the 3 person of the God head.

Further, we are NOT, as creatures, our own trinities. Saying that our union of body/soul/spirit "images" the triune nature of God merely reveals an improper understanding of the Trinity itself.

 

[FireDragon76]

Trinitarian, orthodox Christians do not believe the persons of the Trinity are separate. But at the same time we recognize a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Distinction does not imply separation in being.

Trying to understand the Trinity beyond the basic definitions isn't going to be very helpful, orthodox Christians regard it as a mystery having to do with the nature of God, which is not fully comprehensible. If God were comprehensible in his essence, he would not be God.

 

[StanJ]

What you have described is a heretical view of the Trinity. God does not have 3 "manifestations", as if father-ness, son-ness and spirit-ness are simply "aspects" of God, or "ways of being" for God. No, the Trinity is the mystery of the consubstantiality of the 3 person of the God head.
Further, we are NOT, as creatures, our own trinities. Saying that our union of body/soul/spirit "images" the triune nature of God merely reveals an improper understanding of the Trinity itself.

Before calling somebody a heretic I would suggest that you your self actually study and understand the nature of our Triune God. I was trying to simplify a very complex issue for the OP.
Being made in God's image means that we are made in the image of our Triune God and if you don't or aren't able to apprehend that then again I suggest you study a little more.
Of course it's a lot more preferable that one actually commits themselves to an explanation rather than failing to repudiate others.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Before calling somebody a heretic I would suggest that you your self actually study and understand the nature of our Triune God.

I didn't call you a heretic. I simply pointed out that what you were describing is a heretical view of the Trinity.

I was trying to simplify a very complex issue for the OP.

I would suggest that you not use that approach again. In your attempts at simplification, you only introduced confusion and error.

Being made in God's image means that we are made in the image of our Triune God and if you don't or aren't able to apprehend that then again I suggest you study a little more.

As I said before, I'm not denying that we are made in the image of God, nor that we are not made in the image of the Triune God; obviously, the implication of the imago dei is both. However, my point was simply that our "imaging" of God, in our own natures, is not as a "trinity" in the way that God is triune. Even supposing that one does hold to a dualist (or even tri-part) view of the human person, this does not have any meaningful corollary to what orthodox Christians believe about the triune nature of God. A dualistic or tri-part understanding of the human person does not imagine that there are distinct "persons" in hypostatic union, distinct yet indivisible. We are not "one human in 2/3 persons". Therefore, this is a wholly inappropriate metaphor to use for describing the trinue nature of God, as God--as trinity--is nothing whatsoever like what a dualistic or tri-part understanding of the human person is understood to be.

 

[StanJ]

I didn't call you a heretic. I simply pointed out that what you were describing is a heretical view of the Trinity.

It's tantamount to the same thing.

I would suggest that you not use that approach again. In your attempts at simplification, you only introduced confusion and error.

So far you are the only one that seems confused.

As I said before, I'm not denying that we are made in the image of God, nor that we are not made in the image of the Triune God; obviously, the implication of the imago dei is both. However, my point was simply that our "imaging" of God, in our own natures, is not as a "trinity" in the way that God is triune. Even supposing that one does hold to a dualist (or even tri-part) view of the human person, this does not have any meaningful corollary to what orthodox Christians believe about the triune nature of God. A dualistic or tri-part understanding of the human person does not imagine that there are distinct "persons" in hypostatic union, distinct yet indivisible. We are not "one human in 2/3 persons". Therefore, this is a wholly inappropriate metaphor to use for describing the trinue nature of God, as God--as trinity--is nothing whatsoever like what a dualistic or tri-part understanding of the human person is understood to be.

What you did deny it in your last post so I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say now, but the bottom line is it wasn't meant to satisfy you it was meant to satisfy the OP. As far as the hypostasis is concerned, that is only in regards to Jesus and God. Instead of denying everything, why don't you educate us as to what you think Trinity means, then we won't be wasting a lot of time trying to guess what your point of view or opinion is? What exactly do you think Genesis 1:26-27 means?

 

[St_Worm2]

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

Hi CG, as far as baptism goes, the church has historically followed the Trinitarian formula found in Matthew 28:19, baptizing, "in the name (not the "names") of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit". IOW, we baptize in the "name" of God.

There are a couple of Protestant denominations today that believe that following the example of Acts 2:38 (baptism in the name of Jesus alone) is the only proper way to perform a baptism and, in fact, the only way it will "work" (they also believe that one cannot be saved unless/until they are 1) baptized in water and 2) have the words of Acts 2:38 spoken over the person being baptized exactly as they are written in Acts 2:38 .. like some form of incantation ).

We can discuss why the Apostles chose to use a somewhat different baptismal formula than the Lord prescribed if you'd like to, but again, the Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian formula was not only approved, but often insisted upon in the practice of the early church (as can be clearly seen in the writings of the Early Church Fathers .. and in ancient catechisms, like The Didache .. from late 1st Century on).

I just posted all that ECF/Didache evidence here recently. I'll go find it and post it in this thread as well.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Hieronymus]

It's tantamount to the same thing.

No it isn't.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Early Church Fathers and the Didache on Matthew 28:19 and the Trinitarian Baptismal Formula​

First, from the Didache (which was written toward the end of the 1st Century):

7 Concerning Baptism
7:1 Concerning baptism, you should baptize this way: After first explaining all things, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in flowing water.
7:2 But if you have no running water, baptize in other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, then in warm.
7:3 If you have very little, pour water three times on the head in the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
7:4 Before the baptism, both the baptizer and the candidate for baptism, plus any others who can, should fast. The candidate should fast for one or two days beforehand.​

Next, some ECF quotes, primarily pre-Nicene.

Justin Martyr

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water (The First Apology. Chapter LXI [A. D. 130]).

Tatian the Syrian

"Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto the end of the world’ [Matt. 28:18-20]" (The Diatesseron 55 [A.D. 170]).

Irenaeus

He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Against Heresies [A. D. 180]).

Hippolytus

"When the one being baptized goes down into the water, the one baptizing him shall put his hand on him and speak thus: ‘Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?’ And he that is being baptized shall say: ‘I believe.’ Then, having his hand imposed upon the head of the one to be baptized, he shall baptize him once. Then he shall say: ‘Do you believe in Christ Jesus . . . ?’ And when he says: ‘I believe,’ he is baptized again. Again shall he say: ‘Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?’ The one being baptized then says: ‘I believe.’ And so he is baptized a third time" (The Apostolic Tradition 21 [A.D. 215]).

Tertullian

"After his resurrection he promises in a pledge to his disciples that he will send them the promise of his Father; and lastly, he commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, not into a unipersonal God. And indeed it is not once only, but three times, that we are immersed into the three persons, at each several mention of their names" (Against Praxeas 26 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"The Lord himself told his disciples that they should baptize all peoples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . . for indeed, legitimate baptism is had only in the name of the Trinity" (Commentary on Romans 5:8 [A.D. 248]).

The Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena

"Then Probus . . . leapt into the water, saying, ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, and everlasting God, let all my sins be taken away by this water.’ And Paul said, ‘We baptize thee in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost.’ After this he made him to receive the Eucharist of Christ" (Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena 21 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"He [Jesus] commanded them to baptize the Gentiles in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How then do some say that though a Gentile be baptized . . . never mind how or of whom, so long as it be done in the name of Jesus Christ, the remission of sins can follow—when Christ himself commands the nations to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?" (Letters 73:18 [A.D. 253]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy" (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3 [A.D. 323]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"You were led by the hand to the holy pool of divine baptism, as Christ was carried from the cross to this sepulcher here before us [the tomb of Jesus at Jerusalem]. And each of you was asked if he believed in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And you confessed that saving confession, and descended three times into the water, and again ascended, and in this there was suggested by a symbol the three days of Christ’s burial" (Catechetical Lectures 20:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

"And the whole faith is summed up, and secured in this, that a Trinity should ever be preserved, as we read in the Gospel, ‘Go ye and baptize all the nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost’ (Matt. 28:19). And entire and perfect is the number of the Trinity (On the Councils of Arminum and Seleucia 2:28 [A.D. 361]).

Basil the Great

"The Holy Spirit, too, is numbered with the Father and the Son, because he is above creation, and is ranked as we are taught by the words of the Lord in the Gospel, ‘Go and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ He who, on the contrary, places the Spirit before the Son, or alleges him to be older than the Father, resists the ordinance of God, and is a stranger to the sound faith, since he fails to preserve the form of doxology which he has received, but adopts some newfangled device in order to be pleasing to men" (Letters 52:4 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Moreover, Christ himself says: ‘I and the Father are one.’ ‘One,’ said he, that there be no separation of power and nature; but again, ‘We are,’ that you may recognize Father and Son, forasmuch as the perfect Father is believed to have begotten the perfect Son, and the Father and the Son are one, not by confusion of person, but by unity of nature. We say, then, that there is one God, not two or three gods" (The Faith 1:1[9–10] [A.D. 379]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"But not yet perhaps is there formed upon your soul any writing good or bad; and you want to be written upon today. . . . I will baptize you and make you a disciple in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; and these three have one common name, the Godhead. And you shall know, both by appearances and by words that you reject all ungodliness, and are united to all the Godhead" (Orations 40:45 [A.D. 380]).

Jerome

"Seeing that a man, baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, becomes a temple of the Lord, and that while the old abode is destroyed a new shrine is built for the Trinity, how can you say that sins can be remitted among the Arians without the coming of the Holy Ghost? How is a soul purged from its former stains which has not the Holy Ghost?" (Dialogue Against the Luciferians 6 [A.D. 382]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"And we, in receiving baptism . . . conceal ourselves in [the water] as the Savior did in the earth: and by doing this thrice we represent for ourselves that grace of the resurrection which was wrought in three days. And this we do, not receiving the sacrament in silence, but while there are spoken over us the names of the three sacred persons on whom we believed, in whom we also hope, from whom comes to us both the fact of our present and the fact of our future existence" (Sermon For the Day of Lights [A.D. 383]).

Augustine

"Baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost has Christ for its authority, not any man, whoever he may be; and Christ is the truth, not any man" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24 [57] [A.D. 400]).

"O Lord our God, we believe in you, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For the truth would not say, ‘Go, baptize all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,’ unless you were a Trinity" (The Trinity 15:28[51] [A.D. 408]).

Theodoret of Cyr

"And what need is there of many words, when it is possible to refute falsehood in few? We provide that those who year by year come up for holy baptism should carefully learn the faith set forth at Nicaea by the holy and blessed Fathers; and initiating them as we have been bidden, we baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, pronouncing each name singly" (Letters 145 [A.D. 444]).

​

 

[Hieronymus]

Hi CG, as far as baptism goes, the church has historically followed the Trinitarian formula found in Matthew 28:19, IOW, we baptize "in the name (not "names") of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit". IOW, we baptize in the "name" of God.

To complicate matters further, "the Name" is also referred to as a person on its own, somewhere in the OT.
Of course i forget where exactly... (sorry..)

 

[civilwarbuff]

Hi CG, as far as baptism goes, the church has historically followed the Trinitarian formula found in Matthew 28:19, IOW, we baptize "in the name (not the "names") of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit". IOW, we baptize in the "name" of God.

Never thought of it like that St Worm.....thanks for giving me a new perspective.....

 

[St_Worm2]

To complicate matters further, "the Name" is also referred to as a person on its own, somewhere in the OT. Of course i forget where exactly... (sorry..)

Yeah, nothing about the doctrine of the Trinity is "easy", it seems

As Dr. Packer puts it: The historic formulation of the Trinity (derived from the Latin word trinitas, meaning “threeness”) seeks to circumscribe and safeguard this mystery (not explain it; that is beyond us) and it confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind has ever been asked to handle. It is not easy; but it is true. Packer J. I., Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.

 

[Hieronymus]

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one.

Correct.
YHWH Elohim a.k.a. 'the Godhead' is ONE GOD.

Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though.

But YHWH Elohim is, even in the Old testament.
"Elohim" is a plural.

So how does that even make sense at all?

I.m.o. it's just as unfathomable as timelessness. Because God exists beyond time, He created time "In the beginning" (Genesis 1:1).
Time seems to be a part of creation.
The universe is also called "space-time reality".
What is beyond / above this, is unfathomable for a human being on earth in the flesh.
It's fascinating though.
Impressive.

To make things more confusing, we can identify a number of persons that is YHWH Elohim.
Obviously there is Father, Son (or Word), Holy Spirit.
But also 'the Angel of God' appears to be God, 'the Name' is mentioned as a person and is God, 'Melchizedek' also seems to be a person who is God.
They all are YHWH Elohim, yet they appear to be distinct persons, but ONE GOD none the less.

I think it is safe to say that the Father is the Highest Person within GOD.
None the less, John 1:1 states that it is the Word that created everything that exists.
And the Word became flesh, this is Jesus Christ.
But it seems Jesus Christ is taken up in Heaven as the Word in the flesh.
So what happened to the Word that was not flesh?
Did He change forever?
...but GOD does not change !

So to repeat your question:
"How does that even make sense at all?"
I don't know.
But it makes GOD even more Majestic in my opinion.

One day we will no longer see through a veil, but things will be revealed to us, we will see Him in all his Glory, and we can't help but praise Him.

 

[St_Worm2]

Never thought of it like that St Worm.....thanks for giving me a new perspective.....

Hey CWB, I was amazed when I first read that too (from either MacArthur or Sproul, I believe). Of course, they both got it from Calvin, who no doubt got it from St. Augustine (though I didn't post that particular quote of his here). Gregory of Nazianz's quote above mentions it.

There is a lot of "heat" surrounding this issue, the ECF's (many of whom "insist" on the Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian formula .. see some of their quotes above, particularly Cyprian of Carthage's) and the traditional/historic practice of the church in general vs the Churches of Christ and some of the Independent and/or Pentecostal churches who insist on the Acts 2:38 formula instead.

--David

 

[StanJ]

No it isn't.

Really.... who holds heretical views or makes heretical statements?

 

[Hieronymus]

Really.... who holds heretical views or makes heretical statements?

By mistake or on purpose?
(i just thought you shouldn't take it personally, sorry i butted in..)