Hell is not permanent.

[timlamb]

Why the subtle insult? We don't "dismantle" the scripture any more than you do. We show by way of the scriptures what we believe to be true. It's interesting that because we don't agree with you, that you say that we "dismantle the scriptures". I don't believe anyone here has accused you of "dismantling" the scriptures have they?
*Every scripture quoted in defence of the universalist point of view, I have only needed to put in context to find the true meaning. I don't dismantle, I reassemble.


I haven't seen those things of which you speak. Do you mind quoting them for me...
*I have been in this frome page one. I have been treated quite rudely for believing in eternal judgement; even to the point of being derogatory about "my god" for my beliefs. I don't have to prove myself on that one.


Interesting that you would say "in opposition to ME". You're taking this personal aren't you Tim? Why is that? We are disagreeing with your DOCTRINE and INTERPRETATION of scriptures. It's nothing personal.....yet you take it that we are opposing YOU. Perhaps that is why you are so defensive and angry.
*Perhaps I should have said, my faith, but I think it is the same thing. I was trying extreemly hard to have a peaceful debate until the posts you mention here(at bottom). The 'tag team' style attacks finally broke me and I through a bit of a tirade; portions may have been uncalled for, but most of it I stand by.


Nice strawman. Not one of the universalists here have said that someone gets to heaven without faith in Jesus. NOT ONE. You are simply trying to make it seem we are saying that. Jesus said "no one comes unto the Father except BY ME". So we all believe that. But we ALSO BELIEVE that "every knee will bow and EVERY tongue WILL CONFESS that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God". In time EVERYONE will repent and come to faith in CHrist....some in this life...and some after a time of fiery chastisement. But ALL will.
*wow, I'll try not to take that personal.
I have heard this is heaven, we are experiencing it now.
we are experencing hell now.
we will be purified in the fires of hell, then let into heaven.
we will be preached to in purgatory, face to face with Jesus, until we agree to change.
None of these require faith for the forgiveness of sin.
being "Chastised" into faith makes no sence. God is going to burn faith into the wicked?


Says who? You? How do you know that God isn't going to allow those souls in "hell" to repent, turn to Christ and receive mercy and forgiveness? It would still be salvation THROUGH CHRIST.
*Yes I say it, the scriptures say nothing about repenting your way out of hell. Crying for mercy from the fire is not salvation through faith.


The bible says you "reap what you sow".....that is a form of payment for sin. You get what you give. And no one said that it WAS salvation through CHrist to endure chastisement. That's just your perception.
*The gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ means not getting what you diserve; Jesus took the reaping for us.


You presume to speak for God? Like the bible says...."ALL will declare Jesus is Lord"....so all WILL receive Christ as Lord and Savior eventually....so therefore grace will be given to EVERYONE in time. You want to keep God in a box.
*Declaring Jesus to be Lord, once again, is not faith. The wicked will always bow to a king when it bennifits them. They will know He is Lord, but they still won't love Him.


Yep. and all those who worshipped the Roman emperor a couple thousand years ago did face some real wrath of God when He rained His judgement down on the nation of Israel. Read Josepus sometime. It's harrowing.
*Oh, that's right. The book of revelation unfolded two thousand years ago. so this is the new heaven and the new earth. and all evil has been cast into the pit (like I believe that). I have a book on Josephis, I hear he was quite the historian. But he was no Christian, therefore, no Holy Spirit; and I should take his interpretation on scripture?


That's right. We believe that faith and repentance can happen AFTER a time of chastisement in fire. Can you show me the scripture that refutes this? If this isn't possible then why did Jesus go preach the GOOD NEWS to those who were dead?
*I don't have to show scripture that refutes that; it is so absurd scripture doesn't even refer to it.
And those dead, they heard the good news before they died.

Says who? You? It is COMPLETELY Christian and biblical.....or I wouldn't believe it. It IN NO WAY mocks the Savior. It uplifts Him and exalts Him for EXACTLY what He accomplished on the cross. His death was the reconcilation of all of mankind to the Father. It is God's will to accomplish it through Christ.

Your belief, on the other hand, makes Jesus out as a complete failure in His mission to "seek and TO SAVE that which was lost". Your belief states that He failed miserably to save what was lost.....in fact losing more than 3/4 of the human race to an eternal hell because their will is stronger than His in regards to their eternal destiny.

So which one really mocks Him?
*Ok Mr. Kettle, to say souls in torment will suddenly find faith is pure fantasy; to say they will repent (as in realize their ways were sinful and wish they had never sinned because they want to be righteous) is, at best, wishful thinking.Jesus died for all who would believe in him; which is more than knowing He lived. To believe in someone usually includes love, respect, trust, and yes, faith. This is not a battle of wills with God, it is about surrendering your will to Him, freely and joyfully.



I haven't seen arrogance and smugness except coming from your side of the fence. YOu accuse us universalist CHRISTIANS, who love the Lord passionately, of being...well let's just look at some of your "loving" statements shall we?

In regards to Soul Searcher sharing His views:

2corinthians 11:14-15
"...for satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not suprizing then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."
*His view is that I am some sick individual for holding to traditional Christianity.
to Katalasso (who has shown the patience of JOB in answering you and Der)

I have answered to your interpetation of most all these scriptures. You read them through worldly eyes finding only what you want to hear
You are a sad result of disception and unbelief. Look at the crowd you run with, some think what you are living now is heaven, some think this is hell.
You live in a clueless existance.
SAD, SAD, SAD
*Katalasso has supported some with different view points than hers, only because they defend her denial of hell. And, that said, I did offer an appology to her(of course, like salvation, it must be accepted).
to Red77:

I have little tolorence for those who blame God for the deeds of man. (Red did no such thing)
*Red blamed God for creating an evil world (unless I am mistaken)in one of his posts.
To Jipsah:

You pervert everything that I say. The truth is not in you. Man cannot justify his own wisdom in the words of God.
You are spiritually sick and you try to infect those around you. You do not look for the things of God, but for what benifits man. You are more concerned with the defence of evil than the purpose of the almighty God.
You do not know what righteousness is, how can you understand God.
You lean upon your own understanding, regardless of the word of God.
There is nothing Good in your words
*This one I'll stand by!
Yes, Tim you're just a bastion of compassion and kindness....and yet you say no one has been compassionate to you. Pot meet kettle.
*Yes, I admit, I've finally had enough. No more beatng around the bush. I have said before, this thing has run it's course (about 200 posts ago). Now I think it is time the mods put a lock on it, and I'll let you have the last word, if they allow it.


It's God's will that ALL come to repentance. Are you saying that man can thwart the will of God? But that's not scriptural.

*It's God's desire, it is our choice.
If God wills it, no man or angel or any being in heaven or on earth, can stop it.

 

[Der Alte]

...[SIZE=-1]Jesus taught an "age lasting" punishment, chastisement or maybe correction. Ages have beginnings, and ages have endings. Eternity doesn't.[/SIZE]

You can quote the satanic stuff from hellmakers all you like. The owner of that website has shown no evidence of any qualification in the Biblical languages.

Here once again from the secular LSJ classical Greek lexicon. I stress "secular" because they do not have any theological view whatever to promote. They are/were only interested in how the original speakers defined words. The scholarship, i.e. the ancient pre-Christian Greek writings, documenting the definitions is shown in red.

And having posted this I have absolutely no doubt you will ingore this and any other evidence which proves you wrong. But this is not just for your benefit, it is for anyone who might be confused about this. They can see for themselves which definition is based on scholarship, and evidence and which is just the unsupported assumptions and presuppositions of the person who wrote them.

Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon

[size=+1]αιων[/size] aion onos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also he, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aio like Poseido, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWon, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tes hekastou zoes chronon . . aion hekastou kekletai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):

I. lifetime, life, psuche te kai aion Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mede toi ai. phthineto Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aionos neos oleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aionos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiona dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiona E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiona A.Th.219 .

2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellon aion posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.

3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.

II. long space of time, age, aion gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aionos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhomaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aionos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aionos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiona aionos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aionos kai heos aionos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heos aionos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiona Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aionos phobous Epicur.Sent.20 .

2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aion houtos this present world, opp. ho mellon, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib. Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. ton aionon LXX 4 Ma.18.24 , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo ton ai., pro ton ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta tele ton ai. ib.10.11.
[…]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] aionios , on, also a, on Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:--lasting for an age (aion 11 ), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. aidios, Plot.3.7.3), methe Pl.R. 363d ; anolethron . . all' ouk aionion Id.Lg.904a , cf. Epicur. Sent.28; ai. kata psuchen ochlesis Id.Nat.131 G.; kaka, deina, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; ai. amoibais basanisthesomenoi ib.19; tou ai. theou Ep.Rom. 16.26 , Ti.Locr.96c; ou chronie mounon . . all' aionie Aret.CA1.5 ; ai. diatheke, nomimon, prostagma, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; zoe Ev.Matt.25.46 , Porph.Abst.4.20; kolasis Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; pro chronon ai.2 Ep.Tim. 1.9 : opp. proskairos, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.[/color]

2. holding an office or title for life,perpetual, gumnasiarchos CPHerm.62 .

3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.

4. Adv. -ios eternally, nous akinetos ai. panta ôn Procl.Inst.172 , cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, misein Sch.E.Alc.338.

5. aionion, to, = aeizoon to mega, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
​

 

[red77]

In your UR version of “heaven” when did/does this happen?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
​

The Biblical, historical doctrine of ET has been proved over and over again with multitudes of scriptures that ALL universalists posting in this thread have repeatedly ignored. For example, twenty eight (28) passages spoken by Jesus.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.


And you would have us read two passages, which you think proves UR. Any doctrine that does not consider all scripture is, at best, a half truth, and a half truth is a full lie.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, i.e. they are God breathed, even those you ignore and hate, and unless you include all scripture you do not have a Biblical belief.



This is a Christian forum and I am a Christian discussing Christian doctrine. That doctrine is based on all scripture see, 1 Tim 3:16, above. If you do not want to discuss scripture, what are you doing in a Christian forum? There are a multitude of forums, where people can discuss their opinions about a multitude of subjects.

I am not interested in what you think must have been revealed by your conscience. That is totally subjective. As I said before David Koresh, Jim Jones, and all their followers were convinced they were right. I’m pretty sure they had consciences also given by God. I am only interested in what God has revealed in his word. And no, it does not require redefining anything to understand the totality of God’s word. That is a cop out.

The interpretation of scripture is not arbitrary, haphazard, or dependent on the personal whims of the interpreter. There are grammar and syntax rules for every language. That includes Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I don’t remember where I read this but, “When we have in mind the meaning the original writer had in mind when he wrote scripture, then we have correctly interpreted it.” Here is another maxim, “A text without a context, is a pretext.”

Someone can quote, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.,” as you said, until the cows come home but they do not have the full sense of scripture if they ignore Jesus also saying, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven …then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” and ignore the other 27 passages I have posted repeatedly.

well, i joined this forum to meet people with faith and to try and rekindle my own which i'll admit , has been somewhat lacking of late, i didnt join it to purely discuss scripture

At this moment I do not in fact have a bible, and i've no doubt there are many, many here if not possibly everyone who has a better knowledge of scripture and certain texts than i have

But the bible is not the only way in which to be spoke to by God, over the last few days on this forum I've experienced a reawakeng in spirit that i neither looked for or expected to find, that being from the words, actions and grace of others here, God works through people as much as words in a book

Conscience is given to us by God, and if i believe that then its my yardstick to a lot of what i do in life, at times i've ignored it and have done things that were wrong, but there are times I believe that intrinsically you know certain things to be right and others wrong and your conscience (at least in my experience) will not allow me to ignore it,

I didnt leave the church i was in (pentecostal) purely on a whim of conscience, i left because every fibre of my being knew that it was wrong to stay,

likewise I didnt adopt universalism on a whim of conscience either, i'd already aligned myself with one church to just blindly stumble into another with no questions

And my conscience has no difficulty with making the decision to be a universalist because every fibre of my being feels it to be right, it did when i first encountered it and it gave me hope, and it still does now, and i'm well aware that this is a personal testimony and I've used the word 'I' a lot but quite frankly so what?

If I'm wrong and you and other traditional evengeicals are right then i'll find out soon enough, but at least i'll know that my decision to leave the evangelical churchwas genuine and done after much soul searching, whatever else i knew i was being true to myself then and before God

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]well, i joined this forum to meet people with faith and to try and rekindle my own which i'll admit , has been somewhat lacking of late, i didnt join it to purely discuss scripture

At this moment I do not in fact have a bible, and i've no doubt there are many, many here if not possibly everyone who has a better knowledge of scripture and certain texts than i have

But the bible is not the only way in which to be spoke to by God, over the last few days on this forum I've experienced a reawakeng in spirit that i neither looked for or expected to find, that being from the words, actions and grace of others here, God works through people as much as words in a book

Conscience is given to us by God, and if i believe that then its my yardstick to a lot of what i do in life, at times i've ignored it and have done things that were wrong, but there are times I believe that intrinsically you know certain things to be right and others wrong and your conscience (at least in my experience) will not allow me to ignore it,

I didnt leave the church i was in (pentecostal) purely on a whim of conscience, i left because every fibre of my being knew that it was wrong to stay,

likewise I didnt adopt universalism on a whim of conscience either, i'd already aligned myself with one church to just blindly stumble into another with no questions

And my conscience has no difficulty with making the decision to be a universalist because every fibre of my being feels it to be right, it did when i first encountered it and it gave me hope, and it still does now, and i'm well aware that this is a personal testimony and I've used the word 'I' a lot but quite frankly so what?

If I'm wrong and you and other traditional evengeicals are right then i'll find out soon enough, but at least i'll know that my decision to leave the evangelical churchwas genuine and done after much soul searching, whatever else i knew i was being true to myself then and before God[/SIZE]

If all you wanted was to fellowship with others with like beliefs, then you probably should have chosen a Universalist forum.

This is a traditional, historical, Evangelical Christian forum, with this one sub-forum for unorthodox theologies. Anything you post here will be read and challenged by traditional Evangelicals. And I think I can safely say, that they will, like me, be less than receptive to any belief that is based primarily on someone's subjective "conscience" and which ignores or contradicts scripture.

 

[EchoPneuma]

*It's God's desire, it is our choice.
If God wills it, no man or angel or any being in heaven or on earth, can stop it.

Tha't right. If it's God's will....nothing can stop it. And the bible clearly says that God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

So, can any being in heaven or earth stop God's will from happening? If you say "no", as you state above.....then NO MAN will perish and ALL will come to repentance because it IS GOD'S WILL for it to happen.

Eph 1: 9-1


9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Hence, I am a universalist. Why aren't you?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Those verses refer to the fact that those who were then already dead, had heard the gospel (good News) an therefore could be judged.
Hebrews 9:27,28
"And it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many..."

No they don't. That's not what they say at all. That's what you WANT them to say. They don't say that the gospel was preached to those people when they were alive, but they are now dead. It says that it was preached TO THE DEAD. It couldn't be clearer. But since this doesn't fit in with your doctrines, you must change the meaning of what it says. Why don't you just take that verse for what it plainly says and incorporate it into your beliefs instead of changing it to fit in with your doctrines?

 

[EchoPneuma]

No, not sorely mistaken just had the wrong out-of-context proof text.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

"The gospel WAS preached to the dead....and it was Jesus who did it." Is that the only interpretation? Then please explain to me how dead people in the grave bury other dead people?

Notice, also before men are saved they were dead in trespasses, etc.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
​

Please show where Jesus ever taught preaching to and salvation after death? Pay particular attention to Luke 16:19ff.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22940336&postcount=494

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22894158#post22894158

Your out of context proof texts prove nothing. You haven't shown why the gospel was preached to dead people. There could be only one reason. You also haven't shown that it meant anything but physically dead.

Just continue to ignore all the scriptures that refute what you believe and spout your out of context proof texts. It proves nothing.

 

[KCDAD]

at least the others try to support their beliefs with scripture, you just make it up as you go. I won't challenge your imagination.

And yet I will try to challenge yours... where can you go that God is not? Where can you come from where God is not in order to be with God?
You are so sure Heaven is a place you are going to go to... and that hell is a place you are not going.
God is in one and not the other?

 

[EchoPneuma]

And yet I will try to challenge yours... where can you go that God is not? Where can you come from where God is not in order to be with God?
You are so sure Heaven is a place you are going to go to... and that hell is a place you are not going.
God is in one and not the other?

Paul say in Acts that "In Him we live and move and have our being".

All of existence is WITHIN God Himself. We are literally swimming in a sea of the essence of God all around us and we don't even know it. He "fills the universe". Jesus said "the kingdom is WITHIN YOU".

David said "If I make my bed in Sheol...you are there".

If heaven is wherever God is.....then Heaven is everywhere. I believe it is a state of spiritual mind and not a place. I see where you're coming from.

 

[KCDAD]

The only little problem is you did not read my previous posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

OK here my attempt to address your Jewish encyclopedia article. For clarity I printed my responses in Green so they could be distinguished from your article.
Notice, it doesn't take scripture to counter these argument, because these arguments are not based on scripture. All it takes is reason.

Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. SO hell is a good place. Torture, punishment, eternal retribution for temporal violations… Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna Abraham saw Gehenna according to this. The Valley of Hinnom in Abraham’s time was a fertile, lovely place… a garden so to speak. (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. IS this literal or figurative? If literal it is nonsense. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Oh I see, now it is clear that the former reference was not literal. How could they measure a real place Gehenna based on a flat world view of the Earth? Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6).

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot Hmmmm, Do you notice the Hebrew trend here to repeat symbolic numbers? Just like rain for 40 days and nights, 40 years in the wilderness, 40 days in the desert…? as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna IS it really sulfur or rotten eggs? (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night This is of course not literal… fire gives off light, but there can be no light in hell because God is light and light represents wisdom.(Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed ASSUMED????? You mean they do not know this? that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" [Note, When does this end??] ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed oops assumed again. in general that sinners Can you define this? Is there anyone who is not a sinner? go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell" [Note, When does this end??] (B. M. 83b). Paradise must be a real lonely place… let’s see, there would be Jesus, er no, he’s at the right hand of God sitting on his throne. God can’t be in Paradise because it is a real place with measured limits. God is infinite. So that would leave… Elijah?

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth ahhh, like high rise condos… the most desired are at the top…commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" [Note, When does this end??] ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; You gotta love this… there are three kinds of people in the world: those who always sin, those who never sin, and all the rest. HA! the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months It takes that long in a fire 60 times hotter than anything on Earth? their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. Good thing there are many pious or there would be ashes all over the place. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. This here is sick and incomprehensible. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool Gehenna is actually a fiery pool then… when they call it a pit, they were being metaphorical? So was Enoch right or not? Is it just the heathen (GENTILES) or is it all the sinners? on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies But the dead bodies were destroyed! What does destroyed mean here? on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for "God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners [Note, When does this end??] (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna HUH? The Greek which means “Valley of Hinnom” actually really and truly means something completely different? (הנס = חנס ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. Where did they get all this? They don’t read Strong. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

 

[KCDAD]

You can quote the satanic stuff

Since you brought him up... let's talk about Satan, Lucifer, the devil, The Fallen Angel, The Morning Star, The Serpent, The Beast, The Anti Christ...

Can you find any consensus in scripture about him or them? Which Son of The Morning Star does John refer to in Revelation? Are there more than one? In Job, is Satan working for God or working for his own ends? Does Satan have any power over Jesus in the wilderness or is this just a shadow boxing session? How can Satan even bring himself to speak to The Son of God? Was Peter really possessed by the Devil when Jesus told him to "get behind me Satan"?
IS Satan the one guardian of the gates of Gehenna?

 

[Soul Searcher]

It is not my problem that you will not accept or do not like the answer.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
​

Well you have quoted a lot of scripture but you avoided actually answering the question directly. Si I guess I should infer that you are saying the merciful nonbeliever will be sentenced to eternity in hell without mercy.

Jesus said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mery.

Do you see just a small contradiction here?

 

[KCDAD]

Jesus said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mery.

Do you see just a small contradiction here?

Speaking out of turn... they will receive mercy... they get a better, higher spot in Gehenna.

 

[red77]

If all you wanted was to fellowship with others with like beliefs, then you probably should have chosen a Universalist forum.

This is a traditional, historical, Evangelical Christian forum, with this one sub-forum for unorthodox theologies. Anything you post here will be read and challenged by traditional Evangelicals. And I think I can safely say, that they will, like me, be less than receptive to any belief that is based primarily on someone's subjective "conscience" and which ignores or contradicts scripture.

well , thats ok, although i didnt say that my belief was based on my conscience anyway, nor did i say that i ignored scripture, also i didnt join this forum to just have fellowship with people with similar beliefs, part of me came here to be enlightened which has happened, not in the ways i necessarily thought but i have no complaints about that, even the posts from yourself have contributed in their own way, its a reminder of the strict/rigid fundamentalism that i threw off quite a while ago, and why i wouldnt want to return there......

 

[Soul Searcher]

Speaking out of turn... they will receive mercy... they get a better, higher spot in Gehenna.

But since heat rises would not a higher spot be even worse

 

[Jipsah]

Anything you post here will be read and challenged by traditional Evangelicals. And I think I can safely say, that they will, like me, be less than receptive to any belief that is based primarily on someone's subjective "conscience" and which ignores or contradicts scripture.

Contradicts your doctrinal interpretation of Scripture, anyway. Let's face it, in the end you've got a half dozen verses max that support your position, and a ton that don't You have to declare Saint Paul to be wrong when he told us that "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" because you believe that the curse of God is eternal life under torture. The verses that you adduce to support the idea of eternal torment can be, and are, understood to mean a period of torment, not an eternity of it. That position happens to be consistent with the Scriptures that seem to contradict the notion of eternal torment (hereinafter "ET").

In the beginning was the doctrine, and the doctrine was both weakly formed and strongly held; built, as it were, on interpretive sand. And that's the problem, the doctrine comes first, and the Bible must be made to go along. So you base your arguments on a handful of probably ill-interpreted Scriptures and a lot of arm waving, in the process setting at naught all the rest of the Bible and the evidence of human conscience that argues to the contrary. To cap it all off you accuse those who don't embrace the doctrine of disbelieving the Bible. That's take a lot of chutzpah if nothing else.

BTW, apparently St. Paul had a different view of conscience than you do as well, since he invoked conscience as the guiding force for "gentiles who have not the Law". I don't think you and he would have gotten along at all.

 

[katallasso]

The book of Isaiah has many references to God's vengeance.
Chapters 24, 28, 34
Isaiah 34:10 "It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again."

tim,

Thanks so much, apology accepted.

But I'm gonna have to take issue with your scripture .

(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:

 

[Soul Searcher]

At this moment I do not in fact have a bible, and i've no doubt there are many, many here if not possibly everyone who has a better knowledge of scripture and certain texts than i have

You might want to download the e-sword software for your pc. It is a very good searchable bible comes with a KJV with strongs and has other versions, concordances, dictionarys and such that can be added into it. Most are free to download. www.e-sword.com

 

[KCDAD]

But since heat rises would not a higher spot be even worse

HA! Gotcha... you must bow before and beg forgiveness.... You have assumed hell... oops I mean Gehenna is below!!!!! But what is "below" on a three dimensional round globe? Below to The U.S. is not the same direction as below to China... The world may not be floating in space with the North Pole on top of the planet... for all we know our view of the Earth is upside down in space.
I am the greatest!!!! uh... I forgot about gravity... and differential air pressures and temperatures... uh... nevermind.

 

[red77]

You might want to download the e-sword software for your pc. It is a very good searchable bible comes with a KJV with strongs and has other versions, concordances, dictionarys and such that can be added into it. Most are free to download. www.e-sword.com

Thanks soul searcher, I'll see if i can download, i think i'll have to get it again in book format as well though, I'm not usually without a bible one way or another......